The American "working man" - disappearing - lowest % since 48 - real wages down 27%

[rchiu]

Except the at height of American wealth and power (1940s-1970s), immigration was very low. And in a period of great decline (1980s-2010s), immigration has been very high.


It's nice you think that the third-world will prevail over the US. Just reinforces that third-worlders don't really have the US's interest at heart. At best, the US is a place where they can beat lazy Americans at the rat-race and show how much better they are because their parents forced them to study calculus during the summer.

Seriously you think immigration have immediate impact to a country? A country and economy takes decades to build. Without the large infusion of immigrants in the early 1900's, there wouldn't be the earlier industrial/manufacturing boom in the US. US probably won't even have the man power and manufacturing power to fight ww2 in European and Pacific theater. Without those, you think the US would have the 40~80's wealth and power?

I am the ones keep offering solutions here to NOT let the third world prevail over the US. Solution like getting high skilled workers to the US to improve US business efficiency and profit. Getting government to have a strategy and plan to compete with rest of the world on high tech, high skill companies and jobs. So far I only have heard you say how great the US was back then, but not a single word on how can the US be great now, other than closing your doors and expect China and India to go away.

 

[momeNt]

Seriously you think immigration have immediate impact to a country? A country and economy takes decades to build. Without the large infusion of immigrants in the early 1900's, there wouldn't be the earlier industrial/manufacturing boom in the US. US probably won't even have the man power and manufacturing power to fight ww2 in European and Pacific theater. Without those, you think the US would have the 40~80's wealth and power?

I am the ones keep offering solutions here to NOT let the third world prevail over the US. Solution like getting high skilled workers to the US to improve US business efficiency and profit. Getting government to have a strategy and plan to compete with rest of the world on high tech, high skill companies and jobs. So far I only have heard you say how great the US was back then, but not a single word on how can the US be great now, other than closing your doors and expect China and India to go away.

We were the world's largest economy for the last 60 years mostly because all the other economies were flattened by bombs.

So we go from bombing industrialized nations like Japan and Germany to become the world's largest economy while Europe is rebuilding, to chasing herds of goats in the mountains of Afghanistan.

 

[Modelworks]

Until people put other things above greed it will only get worse. US consumers could have avoided this easily. In the past when they could have paid $2 for a car part that was made in the USA they chose to spend $1.50 for the car part made in China. It wasn't better than the USA made one but it saved them 50 cents and they didn't care if it cost USA jobs because they just saved money. Consumers didn't support the local business but instead ran to walmart where they could save money not caring who made the products. Now it is time to sleep in the bed they made.

 

[Modelworks]

Getting government to have a strategy and plan to compete with rest of the world on high tech, high skill companies and jobs. So far I only have heard you say how great the US was back then, but not a single word on how can the US be great now, other than closing your doors and expect China and India to go away.

There is your problem and the problem with most people in the USA. The solution is NOT in the government. If you want the USA to return to what it was you have to change the mindset of the population. You have to have people care about other people in their neighborhoods. If a factory is considering going overseas you do not give them tax incentives to stay, that is just postponing the move. If you want that factory to stay you have to have people running the factory that care that the workers in the factory have families to feed , bills to pay, and that comes first. The community that the factory produces goods for has to be willing to pay more for the goods because it supports those families around them and it is an USA company. National pride is what is missing.

I do not buy things made outside the USA anymore unless there is no alternative. I check everything I buy now for where it is made.

 

[DirthNader]

So what's stopping American from attending graduate programs? Nothing. It's American who chose not to attend graduate science/tech program.

For technical professionals outside of the university / research system, the ROI simply isn't there.

The company that paid for my engineering masters degree was the same company that literally laughed at me when I asked that engineering masters got me anything in way of career advancement and/or salary. I wasn't alone in this regard.

Even for engineering professionals, the only degree with any kind of tangible ROI is an MBA. My employer looks more favorably on an engineer with an MBA from a terrible business school than it does one with a technical graduate degree from a nationally recognized university.

 

[Infohawk]

Seriously you think immigration have immediate impact to a country? A country and economy takes decades to build. Without the large infusion of immigrants in the early 1900's, there wouldn't be the earlier industrial/manufacturing boom in the US. US probably won't even have the man power and manufacturing power to fight ww2 in European and Pacific theater. Without those, you think the US would have the 40~80's wealth and power?

I am the ones keep offering solutions here to NOT let the third world prevail over the US. Solution like getting high skilled workers to the US to improve US business efficiency and profit. Getting government to have a strategy and plan to compete with rest of the world on high tech, high skill companies and jobs. So far I only have heard you say how great the US was back then, but not a single word on how can the US be great now, other than closing your doors and expect China and India to go away.

Sure, the US needed a certain population to win WW2. That doesn't have anything to do with the current situation or the growth in the 40s-70s. Europe had the same amazing growth and prosperity during that time period and they aren't a continent of immigrants and that fact destroys your theory.

You still don't get it. Your solutions for not letting the world prevail over the US (and you are really flip-flopping about which side you're on) involve out-thirdworlding the third-world. Once people have to have five masters degrees to have a decent standard of living, we've lost. Maybe you just don't know enough about American economic history? Do you understand that people with high school diplomas could have comfortable lifestyles? People with a college or graduate degree were extremely comfortable and did not have to work around the clock. What you don't even realize is that you've missed out on the real American dream too.

 

[Infohawk]

We were the world's largest economy for the last 60 years mostly because all the other economies were flattened by bombs.

So we go from bombing industrialized nations like Japan and Germany to become the world's largest economy while Europe is rebuilding, to chasing herds of goats in the mountains of Afghanistan.

Ugh this overly-simplistic argument gets really old. Do you realize that Europe had the same post-world prosperity too? They called it the 30 glorious. It didn't take 60 years to rebuild the European economy.

 

[Infohawk]

My employer looks more favorably on an engineer with an MBA from a terrible business school than it does one with a technical graduate degree from a nationally recognized university.

But you have a science / engineering undergrad degree right? This might actually make sense to me if that's the case. The reality is that most undergrad degrees give you the preparation to handle a job in a variety of fields. Companies demand more to the extent they just want to have a smaller candidate pool. Another engineering degree is probably overkill. A business degree might help you better manage.

 

[momeNt]

Ugh this overly-simplistic argument gets really old. Do you realize that Europe had the same post-world prosperity too? They called it the 30 glorious. It didn't take 60 years to rebuild the European economy.

My point is that some people here are trying to recapture the days after WW2 to return to that level of prosperity, I am saying that the global situation is a lot different today than immediately post WW2.

 

[Infohawk]

My point is that some people here are trying to recapture the days after WW2 to return to that level of prosperity, I am saying that the global situation is a lot different today than immediately post WW2.

Of course the world is different. That is too general a statement to be useful.

Nobody is trying to capture the "days" after WW2. It's about trying to return to prosperity that the West knew for 30 years!

 

[First]

Okay I stopped reading then since you're closed-minded.

I'm just stating a fact. I'm well aware you aren't interested in debating people more well informed than you, that's clear from your many multiple puss-outs. Trying to recapture 40's-70's growth pretending lower immigration and outsourcing during that time was superior to what we have now? So woefully misplaced based on the evidence it's sad.

 

[DirthNader]

But you have a science / engineering undergrad degree right? This might actually make sense to me if that's the case. The reality is that most undergrad degrees give you the preparation to handle a job in a variety of fields. Companies demand more to the extent they just want to have a smaller candidate pool. Another engineering degree is probably overkill. A business degree might help you better manage.

Yup, I do have an engineering undergrad. That's kind of to the heart of what I'm saying though...

What kind of students are in science and technology graduate programs? Students with science and technology undergrads. Outside of a university or research setting, those degrees aren't truly in demand. The only reason I have one is because my company paid all but $2500 of it, not bad for a masters degree from Purdue, but I honestly doubt I've even gotten $2500 worth of benefit from it.

For students footing the bill themselves, graduate science and technology degrees are typically a terrible investment. That's why you don't see as many American students in those programs.

 

[Infohawk]

I'm just stating a fact.

Sure buddy... Didn't read after that since it's not open for debate... Save your breath.

 

[Infohawk]

For students footing the bill themselves, graduate science and technology degrees are typically a terrible investment. That's why you don't see as many American students in those programs.

Sadly many degrees are becoming poor investments. It's just a symptom of our country's problems. There are still some hot degrees out there but given time I don't think they'll survive either.

 

[werepossum]

There is your problem and the problem with most people in the USA. The solution is NOT in the government. If you want the USA to return to what it was you have to change the mindset of the population. You have to have people care about other people in their neighborhoods. If a factory is considering going overseas you do not give them tax incentives to stay, that is just postponing the move. If you want that factory to stay you have to have people running the factory that care that the workers in the factory have families to feed , bills to pay, and that comes first. The community that the factory produces goods for has to be willing to pay more for the goods because it supports those families around them and it is an USA company. National pride is what is missing.

I do not buy things made outside the USA anymore unless there is no alternative. I check everything I buy now for where it is made.

I do this too, to the limit that I can afford. (The wife and I sometimes differ over what we can afford.) Sometimes it's just ridiculous. When I wanted to replace my American-made grill, nothing at the big box stores was not made in China, let alone made in the USA. I found a small store that did sell American-made grills, but charged $999 for what was literally $69 from China. I just said screw 'em both and replaced my hose assembly and burners. But generally, I'm willing to spend double to triple on small purchases and maybe 20% more on big things like automobiles. In the long run, it's worth it to preserve our wealth-producing manufacturing base.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Like most things in economics this would have a multiplier effect on our economy. There are easy to see residual effects all over the place.

1. Increased revenue from tariffs.
2. Increased domestic investment (the strongest indicator for GDP growth)
3. Increased domestic employment
4. Decreased investment in enemy nations (China)
5. Reduced independence on foreign trade.
6. Reduced outlays to idle workers (unemployment)
7. Increased tax revenue from the increased working populous
8. More domestic profit from corporations (more taxes)
9. Increasing worker wages as labor pool returns to normal (4-6% unemployment)

I could keep going... but yeah. As someone who studies economics day in and day out, I would say that tariffs against nations that exploit their labor pools are the best way to bring jobs and prosperity back home.

:thumbsup:

 

[First]

...Didn't read after that...

Sure you didn't.

 

[CWRMadcat]

It's a really stupid mistake to blame immigrants & foreign workers for our current economic malaise. That's exactly what the propaganda mouthpieces of the financial elite want us to do, rather than blaming them, which is where it really belongs, and on ourselves for having been dumb enough to fall for their trickledown offshoring bullshit.

We didn't ask the right questions, didn't look beyond the ends of our greedy noses. And we didn't insist on a bigger cut of the profits from offshoring in the form of taxes. When we should have raised corporate & very high income taxes, we cut them instead. When we should have realized that we needed more socialism to counter job loss, we created less.

We forgot that in order to participate in this world economy, that we need to have jobs that pay well & benefits when they don't, not just fabulous wealth at the top that never, ever trickles down at all.

We forgot that we can't pay first world overhead on wages competitive with the third world, and that we pay that overhead to the same people who are pushing capital investment offshore just as fast as they possibly can, reaping record profits in the process.

And many of us are still dumb enough to fall for the current flimflam from the Right, the notion that it's regulations inhibiting growth & hiring, rather than regulations just inhibiting even greater profit.

Just because we cut taxes at the top & cut regulations doesn't mean that capitalists will create more jobs, at all. They won't hire until they see greater demand, and that won't happen until more people have incomes, and that won't happen until somebody other than them actually creates jobs, rather than just promising jobs by putting a different dress on the same trickledown whore.

I'm just going to quote this because it covers most of what I would have wanted to say anyway. Our country hasn't really gotten any poorer, it's just that most of the population isn't seeing a significant chunk of that wealth.

 

[Doppel]

I'm just going to quote this because it covers most of what I would have wanted to say anyway. Our country hasn't really gotten any poorer, it's just that most of the population isn't seeing a significant chunk of that wealth.

This. Lowing taxes etc. will do nothing but simply give the shareholders and owners yet more profits. That's all.