The American "working man" - disappearing - lowest % since 48 - real wages down 27%

[WhipperSnapper]

Note that it's not enough to end the foreign outsourcing. We also need to shut down the H-1B and L-1 visa programs that displace Americans from college-education-requiring knowledge-based jobs (ones the displaced manufacturing employees were supposed to retrain and reeducate for) and we also need to end immigration and deport all of the illegals.

 

[Hacp]

Sure, but you forgot getting rid of minimum wage. That way, we can have a lower "monetary" standard of living as well as a lower "health" standard of living too. I hope you're the beneficiary of such lower standards of living in the future...you truly deserve it.

Yes, getting rid of the minimum wage is something I forgot to put in there. Paring down welfare and foodstamps and getting rid of the minimum wage will make America more efficient. We can't pay 40k a year for janitors. We need to start paying janitors significantly less if we are to keep manufacturing jobs here in the US.

 

[Throckmorton]

Yes, getting rid of the minimum wage is something I forgot to put in there. Paring down welfare and foodstamps and getting rid of the minimum wage will make America more efficient. We can't pay 40k a year for janitors. We need to start paying janitors significantly less if we are to keep manufacturing jobs here in the US.

How does paying janitors significantly less keep manufacturing jobs in the US?

The poorer a person is, the more likely he is to choose cheap goods produced by slave labor.

Oh I see, you want the slave labor here instead of China.

 

[Engineer]

Yes, getting rid of the minimum wage is something I forgot to put in there. Paring down welfare and foodstamps and getting rid of the minimum wage will make America more efficient. We can't pay 40k a year for janitors. We need to start paying janitors significantly less if we are to keep manufacturing jobs here in the US.

Great, that way we can accelerate the drop of real wages found in the OP. I love your plan.

Actually, only for you. I hope you are caught up in a spiral down for your entire stealing/want to get on welfare, miserable life.

By the way, what the fuck are you talking about paying a janitor $40,000 per year? Most manufacturers in the US don't even have janitors, they use cheaper cleaning services to clean their facilities.

 

[nonameo]

Yes, getting rid of the minimum wage is something I forgot to put in there. Paring down welfare and foodstamps and getting rid of the minimum wage will make America more efficient. We can't pay 40k a year for janitors. We need to start paying janitors significantly less if we are to keep manufacturing jobs here in the US.

40k is minimum wage?



I don't see how removing minimum wage would lower janitor wages.

 

[Infohawk]

Mexico and China are our second and third largest importers of American goods. Under your plan, those could go away. You think we would make up the difference?

China: we basically export natural resources and planes to China. Exporting natural resources is not the sign of a strong country. As I referred to previously, it's obvious China's going to try to develop its own aircraft industry and then shut out the US.

And your explaination of demand for labor is missing one component: an overabundant supply of jobs leads to lower wages. i.e. retail, fast food, etc. It's the less prominant jobs that pay well. For example, compare a basic network technician's wage vs a BGP engineer. The more of a job there are, the lower the pay. As you say, simple economics.

No. You're confusing correlation with causation. You think that if there are a lot of janitor jobs that that is WHY they pay less. It's not. There are a lot of janitor jobs and they pay less because the supply of janitors includes every single adult on earth. It takes no training. There are not that many postdoc jobs out there, but they happen to pay little because of an overabundance of PhDs. So it is simple economics but you have to look at both supply and demand together.

How would China "pirating IP" be reduced under this forced tariff plan?

For IP, it probably wouldn't, but at least we wouldn't be enriching them. In terms of stolen technology, it would certainly help if we didn't have our high-technology companies over there handing it over to the mandatory Chinese partners.

Mexico: yeah we'd make it up with domestic consumption if our lower and middle classes were better employed and could buy more.

 

[Hacp]

Great, that way we can accelerate the drop of real wages found in the OP. I love your plan.

Actually, only for you. I hope you are caught up in a spiral down for your entire stealing/want to get on welfare, miserable life.

By the way, what the fuck are you talking about paying a janitor $40,000 per year? Most manufacturers in the US don't even have janitors, they use cheaper cleaning services to clean their facilities.

Its called cost of living.

 

[GuitarDaddy]

LOL at Hacp the troll! He's got yall going

 

[Engineer]

LOL at Hacp the troll! He's got yall going

Yes, I don't know why I bother to respond to his stupid shit.

Thanks for bringing me to my senses!

 

[Acanthus]

It is sad that serious, well thought out replies go unanswered.

There really is no debate on this board when it comes to economics, only rhetoric.

 

[dmcowen674]

It is sad that serious, well thought out replies go unanswered.

There really is no debate on this board when it comes to economics, only rhetoric.

If everyone put those that spew the rhetoric like I have on my ignore list they would blow away.

 

[1prophet]

Uhm, no.

If ipads weren't made in China, they would be prohibitively expensive. Example? The 30%+ premium on American-made cars. Imagine, now, the extra expense on everything that goes in to building an ipad: the fabs to spin the ICs, the shops that assemble the boards, the panel fabrication units...etc, etc. AMD tried to build a fab in New York. Even despite huge tax breaks from the state, it still wasn't possible to open it...they had to sell it off. Without access to companies like Chartered and TSMC, we wouldn't have half the little gadgets we have, because they simply wouldn't be financially viable. And that's not even taking in to account the raw materials...most of which simply aren't available in sufficient quantities in the US.

Aside from that, protective tariffs would price us out of foreign markets. Tell me, how do you make an economy grow without access to external markets? That's why isolationism doesn't work.

You want to force American companies to use American labor. Tell me, how does that work? How does the iPhone compete in foreign markets against an HTC phone at a third the price? You may not have noticed, but in comparison to cheaper phones, the iPhone's foreign sales are aren't great: http://www.businessinsider.com/android-iphone-market-share-2010-8

Or, maybe you just want to make it so that products sold by foreign companies in the US are prohibitively expensive. How does that help anyone? All that does is make EVERYTHING more expensive. And now that we're no longer exporting anything, because everything we make is more expensive and foreign countries will have enacted reactive tariffs, our wealth stagnates...buying power never goes up, and we're worse off than we were before.

The liberal's idea of free trade (what we have with NAFTA and China) doesn't work. There need to be tariffs. But, you CANNOT force companies to use American labor. That is not the answer and does not address the issue. Americans need to change their entitlement way of thinking before domestic manufacturing will be universally viable for all products. They don't need to be competitive with Chinese wages...they need to be competitive with Chinese wages + the cost of the logistics of getting product to and from China, which isn't cheap.

I'd love to see more domestic manufacturing, but, frankly, American's don't deserve the jobs. They're all a bunch of whiney, entitlement-minded fucktards.

You better check your facts about that chip foundry in New York, AMD divested itself of all its foundries into Global Foundries, had nothing to do with new york taxes or wage rates.

http://www.hardocp.com/article/2011/04/19/globalfoundries_fab_8_construction_tour/

 

[Acanthus]

Uhm, no.

If ipads weren't made in China, they would be prohibitively expensive. Example? The 30%+ premium on American-made cars. Imagine, now, the extra expense on everything that goes in to building an ipad: the fabs to spin the ICs, the shops that assemble the boards, the panel fabrication units...etc, etc. AMD tried to build a fab in New York. Even despite huge tax breaks from the state, it still wasn't possible to open it...they had to sell it off. Without access to companies like Chartered and TSMC, we wouldn't have half the little gadgets we have, because they simply wouldn't be financially viable. And that's not even taking in to account the raw materials...most of which simply aren't available in sufficient quantities in the US.

Aside from that, protective tariffs would price us out of foreign markets. Tell me, how do you make an economy grow without access to external markets? That's why isolationism doesn't work.

You want to force American companies to use American labor. Tell me, how does that work? How does the iPhone compete in foreign markets against an HTC phone at a third the price? You may not have noticed, but in comparison to cheaper phones, the iPhone's foreign sales are aren't great: http://www.businessinsider.com/android-iphone-market-share-2010-8

Or, maybe you just want to make it so that products sold by foreign companies in the US are prohibitively expensive. How does that help anyone? All that does is make EVERYTHING more expensive. And now that we're no longer exporting anything, because everything we make is more expensive and foreign countries will have enacted reactive tariffs, our wealth stagnates...buying power never goes up, and we're worse off than we were before.

The liberal's idea of free trade (what we have with NAFTA and China) doesn't work. There need to be tariffs. But, you CANNOT force companies to use American labor. That is not the answer and does not address the issue. Americans need to change their entitlement way of thinking before domestic manufacturing will be universally viable for all products. They don't need to be competitive with Chinese wages...they need to be competitive with Chinese wages + the cost of the logistics of getting product to and from China, which isn't cheap.

I'd love to see more domestic manufacturing, but, frankly, American's don't deserve the jobs. They're all a bunch of whiney, entitlement-minded fucktards.

After reading this, I have no real idea to begin a discussion as you're all over the place.

Tariffs would only have to be reasonable to bring jobs back into the US. Our stuff is already prohibitively expensive in the nations that we export most of our labor pool to. We aren't moving millions of iphones in China because the Chinese can't afford them anyway. On top of that, China taxes the shit out of their imports, which makes American products even less competitive.

China is engaged in one way trade with the United States and is benefiting tremendously from our slow decline as they leech all of the investment capital out of our nation.

China => US average tariff? 4%
US => China? 40%

The fact that we can ship our materials halfway around the world, use their labor pool to make our stuff, and ship it halfway around the world back to the US, should tell you there is a serious flaw somewhere. Not to mention we are trading with and investing in an enemy state.

I literally see no upsides to the current system of trade other than a greedy few get to increase margins.

As for the Apple / AMD comments... Apple spends significantly less on marketing abroad, so they don't have the "cool factor" they do in the US. They also compete with arguably better phones and don't have the advantages of an oligopoly on the telecoms in the EU.

AMD divested all of their fabs into a new company. This had nothing to do with the New York foundry location. It was because AMD has lost money for 8 of the last 10 years.

 

[Engineer]

After reading this, I have no real idea to begin a discussion as you're all over the place.

Tariffs would only have to be reasonable to bring jobs back into the US. Our stuff is already prohibitively expensive in the nations that we export most of our labor pool to. We aren't moving millions of iphones in China because the Chinese can't afford them anyway. On top of that, China taxes the shit out of their imports, which makes American products even less competitive.

China is engaged in one way trade with the United States and is benefiting tremendously from our slow decline as they leech all of the investment capital out of our nation.

China => US average tariff? 4%
US => China? 40%

The fact that we can ship our materials halfway around the world, use their labor pool to make our stuff, and ship it halfway around the world back to the US, should tell you there is a serious flaw somewhere. Not to mention we are trading with and investing in an enemy state.

I literally see no upsides to the current system of trade other than a greedy few get to increase margins.

As for the Apple / AMD comments... Apple spends significantly less on marketing abroad, so they don't have the "cool factor" they do in the US. They also compete with arguably better phones and don't have the advantages of an oligopoly on the telecoms in the EU.

AMD divested all of their fabs into a new company. This had nothing to do with the New York foundry location. It was because AMD has lost money for 8 of the last 10 years.

Very well said. Bolded part essentially echo's my sig.

 

[momeNt]

After reading this, I have no real idea to begin a discussion as you're all over the place.

Tariffs would only have to be reasonable to bring jobs back into the US. Our stuff is already prohibitively expensive in the nations that we export most of our labor pool to. We aren't moving millions of iphones in China because the Chinese can't afford them anyway. On top of that, China taxes the shit out of their imports, which makes American products even less competitive.

China is engaged in one way trade with the United States and is benefiting tremendously from our slow decline as they leech all of the investment capital out of our nation.

China => US average tariff? 4%
US => China? 40%

The fact that we can ship our materials halfway around the world, use their labor pool to make our stuff, and ship it halfway around the world back to the US, should tell you there is a serious flaw somewhere. Not to mention we are trading with and investing in an enemy state.

I literally see no upsides to the current system of trade other than a greedy few get to increase margins.

As for the Apple / AMD comments... Apple spends significantly less on marketing abroad, so they don't have the "cool factor" they do in the US. They also compete with arguably better phones and don't have the advantages of an oligopoly on the telecoms in the EU.

AMD divested all of their fabs into a new company. This had nothing to do with the New York foundry location. It was because AMD has lost money for 8 of the last 10 years.

Instead of a tariff, perhaps we should tax Americans the amount of money that it would take for government to subsidize whatever labor we want to bring back to the USA. The tax can be progressive so instead of a tariff raising the prices for essentially all Americans (since so much stuff is made abroad we can consider this a flat tax, or possibly regressive since maybe more rich will buy made in the USA) it can be a higher rate as income goes up. This will employ Americans and instead of making all the prices of goods higher, they stay the same and only those who can afford it are really forced to bear the burden.

Liberals are generally all for progressive taxes yet fail to see that it could be implemented instead of tariffs. We can call it the keep our jobs home tax.

 

[Ausm]

What Drebo is exhibiting is an aspect of the, "I've got mine, F-you" mentality. I'm sure if his white collar employer went and tried to cut his wages or benefits or worsened the working conditions at his workplace that he'd cry like a little bitch. I bet he feels just as entitled to compensation for his work as do all of the filthy little people who work in manufacturing.

That's a perfect description of the Republican Mantra and I can't wait until those assholes start loosing their jobs then they may actually give a shit then.

 

[Macamus Prime]

Where are the fingermen?! They need to defend their masters at a time like this! Quickly, label the source as a communist socialist terrorist bent on destroying the American dream!!!

Of course, this all the fault of:
1) the average American; they refuse to live on $10K a year with no insurance, working 7 days a week at 10 hour shifts each day

2) the American government, looking to protect the environment and preventing something like this from happening: http://www.reuters.com/article/2008/12/11/us-china-reforms-cancer-idUSTRE4BA0KZ20081211

How DARE they??

Well, thats what they get for being greedy and corrupt! The rich HAD to ship these jobs over seas!!! It's not their fault!!! The average American is asking for too much and the government is too invasive!!!!!!shift+1!!!!!

/end P&N Wannabe Fingerman

 

[fskimospy]

But ... but ... but tariffs caused the Great Depression!!! ...even though international trade only accounted for 5% of the economy at that point...

Everyone is either in denial or so wedded to free-market dogma that they're willing to see the US reach parity with the third world so that things can eventually get better.

I'm not aware of anyone who thinks that tariffs caused the Great Depression. There was Smoot-Hawley which is credited with making an already bad situation worse, but that's about it.

Free trade is a net benefit to the economy, particularly economies such as ours. What people always seem to forget is that along with free trade you are supposed to alter your economic and social system to address the inevitable losers that come from interaction with other economies. In particular our unskilled/low skilled labor. America doesn't like doing that though, because we think that social safety nets and programs such as these are OMGSOCIALISM.

So perhaps you are right, considering America's unwillingness to implement the obvious social policies that would mitigate the bad effects of free trade while preserving the overall GDP growth from it, maybe we should shut it down. This is yet another part of the US that is poorly served by our having an ultra right wing party that wields so much influence.

 

[fskimospy]

Yes, I don't know why I bother to respond to his stupid shit.

Thanks for bringing me to my senses!

Seriously, haha. And everyone should remember that Hacp is the guy who still had his parents claiming him as a dependent and was trying to shift that so he could apply for food stamps awhile back.

He's just a kid living off his parents' dime, trying to milk the government, and then complaining about it. He's like the Craig T. Nelson of ATPN.

 

[Genx87]

The global cost of labor for low skill jobs will hurt our low skill labor. The question is, do we allow for our low skill labor to work at the going rate or try to subsidize\hide the fact we are over paying these people? If we are going to admit our low skill labor is over paid and demand they have a "liveable" lifestyle. Wouldnt is make more sense to just subsidize them and let the job go to another country? We cant possibly in any shape or form compete with 3rd world countries for low skill jobs on a cost basis. Putting tarriffs on the goods will only make it most costly for skilled labor to consume these goods and may not even keep the jobs here anyways.

As for real wages down. Welcome to currency devaluation dick slapping the middle and lower classes right in the face.

 

[Dman8777]

Everyone always points to unskilled jobs going overseas to cheaper labor markets but the jobs fleeing the US are not just low/un-skilled labor. Engineering, software, and call centers are moving to India too. I haven't been affected but I know a couple of guys who either had their jobs outsourced to Indian engineering firms (where the engineers earn 30 - 40k USD in a year) or they got sick of coordinating projects with people on the other side of the world and left their jobs.

The only safe industry left in the states is defense and when the government has no money left, that will go too.

 

[BoberFett]

Funny that Democrats bitch and moan about how awful capitalists are for shipping jobs overseas, but vigorously defend the importation of cheap laborers to do jobs that "Americans won't do" and call anyone who talks about that a racist.

 

[maluckey]

H-1 Visas are a joke. Let's train the next generation of foreigners to displace Native born candidtates! We'll let them go to our schools, then come here as entry level workers.

 

[rchiu]

H-1 Visas are a joke. Let's train the next generation of foreigners to displace Native born candidtates! We'll let them go to our schools, then come here as entry level workers.

You people are a joke. How many native born candidate were displaced? None, if there were enough qualified native born candidate to start with, there wouldn't be a need for H-1 visa program, it will die a natural death. You people are burying your head in the sand. American do not pay attention to science and technology study. Graduate schools for those fields are filled with foreigners. There is a serious shortage of skilled tech workers, and with your bright idea, American companies will be even less competitive, hire less white collar workers, native or not.

There is definitely a need to have a strategy and program to retain American job. But knee jerk reaction by people with no idea what they are talking about is a lose-lose for all American.

 

[Chaosblade02]

Whenever inflation rises, wages always remain stagnant for a number of years. And the lowest skilled positions see the worst effects of this. People don't want to work at a fast food joint anymore, because you simply cannot make enough to live on just on those wages alone. If you got rent, utilities, food, or possibly a car, gas, insurance then you just simply cannot afford it. All of those are considered basic necessities in modern society, and you can't even work a job like that and have the basics. If you can't even have the basics then wtf is the point of working there to begin with? Personally I won't work for anything less than the basics. For an individual to at least be able to afford the basics, you need to be making at least $22,000/year, and that won't even be good enough in some areas with high cost of living like in LA or NYC, in which you would probably have to make closer to $30k. Fast food in my area pays about $14k/year. Light industrial jobs that are non-skilled pay around $18k in my area. You might be able to afford rent on a 20 year old run down trailer on $18k/year, and eat ramen noodles for dinner every day, and a lot of people in fact do that.

No I am not even joking, America has seriously gotten that bad. There are many countries in Europe that I am sure have much better living standards for people who make lower incomes.

Back in 1964 my father worked at a RCA plant and made $5.85 an hour as an entry level wage. Now this plant had everything from welders, to machinists. Someone like a skilled machinist could make around $12.00/hr. Back then on $5.85/hr you could afford rent on a 3 bedroom 2 bathroom house in a middle class area, and have a brand new car, and have a stay at home wife with a couple of kids, and do fine. This was entry level, non-skilled industrial. Compare the difference to then and now. Now days you need a 4 year bachelors degree to get the same thing a person could make in the 60s for non-skilled labor. And a skilled machinist could make nearly a fortune and retire early. My grandfather was a machinist, and he retired at 55, and lives VERY well.

Most younger people today don't understand how good America used to be, the former America used to actually live up to all the hype. The current one is a fucking joke, and is basically on life support. Considering what it used to be, what it is now and where I see it going, I am not the slightest bit confident in America anymore.