The American "working man" - disappearing - lowest % since 48 - real wages down 27%

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blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
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We would still export to the first world.

I just did explain why wages would rise for everyone. Microeconomics. What happens when demand for labor increases but supply decreases? It's microeconomics 101.

Mexico and China are our second and third largest importers of American goods. Under your plan, those could go away. You think we would make up the difference?

And your explaination of demand for labor is missing one component: an overabundant supply of jobs leads to lower wages. i.e. retail, fast food, etc. It's the less prominant jobs that pay well. For example, compare a basic network technician's wage vs a BGP engineer. The more of a job there are, the lower the pay. As you say, simple economics.

How would China "pirating IP" be reduced under this forced tariff plan?
 
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trenchfoot

Lifer
Aug 5, 2000
14,864
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So the logic is basically that since the EPA, FDA, etc aren't perfect, there's no possible way things could be worse without them...is that basically what you're arguing? Sometimes bad beef slips through regulations and testing, so the best way to have fewer of those cases is to get rid of regulations and the requirement for testing?

Over-regulation is definitely bad, so the solution is to fix the regulations, not do away with the concept entirely. I'm not sure why over-reacting wildly the other way seems like a reasonable approach to you...

Of course, let's not forget how corrupted our regulatory agencies have become where so many industry-related former employees have been infiltrated into those regulatory agencies they are meant to oversee. Under Bush/Cheney's watch there was wholesale use of this tactic and many of those industry-friendly former employees are still in place, many in very high places in those affected agencies.

The argument that our regulatory agencies haven't been doing a good job because they're part of "big gov't" is a fallacy. The reg agencies have been emasculated because they have been inflitrated and/or corrupted by those very industries the agencies were meant to oversee.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
The American "working man" - disappearing - lowest % since 48 - real wages down 27%

This is what happens when you keep opening the "free trade" doors and kicking more and more "wealth creating" jobs out of the country. The only way that it's been hidden so long is the two earner family and debt/bubbles. 1st generation to live a lower standard of living? Coming right up!

http://finance.yahoo.com/career-work/article/113390/disappearance-american-working-man-businessweek

This is by design by the Rich Religious Tea Partying Republicans

Keep voting Republican, you all deserve this
 

xj0hnx

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2007
9,262
3
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If you've ever been to Europe you'd see they do drive some American cars. We're not going to be able to have a serious conversation you can't make up straw men.

In the few years that I lived there, outside of Americans, I can probably count the number of American made cars I saw without having to borrow any fingers, or toes.
 

Hacp

Lifer
Jun 8, 2005
13,923
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Of course, let's not forget how corrupted our regulatory agencies have become where so many industry-related former employees have been infiltrated into those regulatory agencies they are meant to oversee. Under Bush/Cheney's watch there was wholesale use of this tactic and many of those industry-friendly former employees are still in place, many in very high places in those affected agencies.

The argument that our regulatory agencies haven't been doing a good job because they're part of "big gov't" is a fallacy. The reg agencies have been emasculated because they have been inflitrated and/or corrupted by those very industries the agencies were meant to oversee.

If jobs don't come from industry, where will they come from?
 
Oct 30, 2004
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How would strong tarrifs increase average income? I understand your view about it creating jobs, but, ok, lets say we have 20 million more people "making" things earning $12/hr, while trying to afford the now more expensive American made products?

You should also keep in mind that those people earning the $12/hour would no be longer on welfare, unemployment, and food stamps. The taxpayers would save some money too.
 
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Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
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This is true. The obvious ways to help men is to reduce industrial regulations(Get rid of EPA), get rid of Obamacare, and finally to eliminate Medicare/SS/Unemployment payments.

Sure, but you forgot getting rid of minimum wage. That way, we can have a lower "monetary" standard of living as well as a lower "health" standard of living too. I hope you're the beneficiary of such lower standards of living in the future...you truly deserve it.
 
Oct 30, 2004
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If ipads weren't made in China, they would be prohibitively expensive. Example? The 30%+ premium on American-made cars.

You're only considering the front-end costs and ignoring the back-end costs. If wages increase by 30% and prices increase by 25%, then our nation has gained. Imagine eliminating most of our trade deficit and internalizing by being self-reliant.

Imagine, now, the extra expense on everything that goes in to building an ipad: the fabs to spin the ICs, the shops that assemble the boards, the panel fabrication units...etc, etc. AMD tried to build a fab in New York. Even despite huge tax breaks from the state, it still wasn't possible to open it...they had to sell it off. Without access to companies like Chartered and TSMC, we wouldn't have half the little gadgets we have, because they simply wouldn't be financially viable. And that's not even taking in to account the raw materials...most of which simply aren't available in sufficient quantities in the US.

If we can put a man on the Moon, we can figure out how to manufacture IPads and all of their individual components.

One of the big myths the free market dogmatists seem to put forth is the notion that Americans are just retarded now and are incapable of producing tangible wealth.

Aside from that, protective tariffs would price us out of foreign markets. Tell me, how do you make an economy grow without access to external markets? That's why isolationism doesn't work.

Right now we're losing hundreds of billions of dollars every year because of our trade deficit. If we were self reliant and didn't have the trade deficit, we would realize a net savings of hundreds of billions of dollars a year in addition to other benefits (less unemployment and the social problems it causes, less need for government welfare).

You want to force American companies to use American labor. Tell me, how does that work? How does the iPhone compete in foreign markets against an HTC phone at a third the price? You may not have noticed, but in comparison to cheaper phones, the iPhone's foreign sales are aren't great: http://www.businessinsider.com/android-iphone-market-share-2010-8

It can't. And American-made goods and services can't compete against nations where the labor is paid fifty cents/hour without environmental and labor regulations. But so what? It's not as though we are "competing" right now as evidenced by our trade deficits. All we're doing is merging our nation's labor market and economy with the standard of living of the third world.

Or, maybe you just want to make it so that products sold by foreign companies in the US are prohibitively expensive. How does that help anyone? All that does is make EVERYTHING more expensive. And now that we're no longer exporting anything, because everything we make is more expensive and foreign countries will have enacted reactive tariffs, our wealth stagnates...buying power never goes up, and we're worse off than we were before.

It helps because we would have become a responsible, self-reliant country and prices would adjust to American free market prices. Front-end costs for some goods and services would increase and wages would increase as well in addition to large decreases in unemployment and the social problems it causes and the amount of tax money spent on social welfare programs. Imagine adding a couple hundred billion dollars per year to our economy.

But, you CANNOT force companies to use American labor. That is not the answer and does not address the issue. Americans need to change their entitlement way of thinking before domestic manufacturing will be universally viable for all products. They don't need to be competitive with Chinese wages...they need to be competitive with Chinese wages + the cost of the logistics of getting product to and from China, which isn't cheap.

I'd love to see more domestic manufacturing, but, frankly, American's don't deserve the jobs. They're all a bunch of whiney, entitlement-minded fucktards.

You mean that Americans need to stop feeling that they're entitled to an American lower-middle class standard of living as opposed to knowing their place and accepting the average Chinese standard of living?

Why can't we force any business that sells goods or services in the United States to either produce it using American labor or to submit an import credit to show that an equivalent amount of American labor was purchased in other countries (Warren Buffet's import credits idea.)? Is there some sort of a metaphysical barrier that prevents us from doing this? Would it be more palatable to the free market dogmatist types if such a policy were referred to as the "National Personal Responsibility and Self-Reliance Policy"?
 
Oct 30, 2004
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You despite your countrymen and probably think the average Chinese worker is some noble hard worker who will happily buy your services and goods when he gets richer. That's naive.

What Drebo is exhibiting is an aspect of the, "I've got mine, F-you" mentality. I'm sure if his white collar employer went and tried to cut his wages or benefits or worsened the working conditions at his workplace that he'd cry like a little bitch. I bet he feels just as entitled to compensation for his work as do all of the filthy little people who work in manufacturing.

The Chinese will be the first to raise trade barriers when it's in their interest.

You betcha. China does what's in the interest of China. The Chinese think we are retarded for training their students and for sending our jobs and manufacturing prowess to them, and they're right.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
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www.alienbabeltech.com
Why can't we force any business that sells goods or services in the United States to either produce it using American labor or to submit an import credit to show that an equivalent amount of American labor was purchased in other countries (Warren Buffet's import credits idea.)?

To bad Buffet is too old, he should have run for President replacing his buddy Obama.
 
Oct 30, 2004
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Do you have any idea how much we export?

Not as much as we import based on our multi-hundred billion dollar trade deficits over the past several decades.

And you still havent explained how factory line production jobs will pay more than fast food, other than "its quite simple".

Why do white collar jobs pay more than fast food? It would end up being determined by the American free market. As the demand for domestic labor increases and the supply of available American labor decreases, the price point would increase and business owners' profits would end up decreasing to more reasonable levels. One thing we can do to reduce the supply of labor is to end immigration and boot out the tens of millions of illegals.

The real issue is one of purchasing power. In the past, back in the Sixties before all of this globalization, a man with a mere high school diploma could afford a house, car, wife, and kids with a factory job.
 

Orignal Earl

Diamond Member
Oct 27, 2005
8,059
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FhOMD.gif
 

Orignal Earl

Diamond Member
Oct 27, 2005
8,059
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Ausm

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
25,213
14
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Sure, but you forgot getting rid of minimum wage. That way, we can have a lower "monetary" standard of living as well as a lower "health" standard of living too. I hope you're the beneficiary of such lower standards of living in the future...you truly deserve it.

I f Hacp had a brain he would be dangerous.
 

matt0611

Golden Member
Oct 22, 2010
1,879
0
0
LMAO @ all the people in this thread that think raising prices on all Americans will somehow help us.
Tariffs have been tried before, with disastrous results.
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
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LMAO @ all the people in this thread that think raising prices on all Americans will somehow help us.
Tariffs have been tried before, with disastrous results.

and the side effect is high unemployment, especially among those at the lower and lower middle classes and huge amounts of increased welfare. Of course, you don't see that and keep thinking "I have mine, fuck everyone else".
 

matt0611

Golden Member
Oct 22, 2010
1,879
0
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and the side effect is high unemployment, especially among those at the lower and lower middle classes and huge amounts of increased welfare. Of course, you don't see that and keep thinking "I have mine, fuck everyone else".

I'm not as naive as you people are that think shutting down trade with the rest of the world will somehow help us. Its quite laughable really.
If I disagree I must be "evil" right? Its all about "getting mine" right?
It couldn't possibly be a horrible idea or anything...

I actually would like to see it tried just to show you people are stupid the idea is. Go ahead, lets do it, see what happens.
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
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I'm not as naive as you people are that think shutting down trade with the rest of the world will somehow help us. Its quite laughable really.

Who said anything about shutting down trade? Please point it out? We want FAIR trade, not the so called one-way FREE trade that we have now. The OP is a perfect example of it's effects and there are no more bubbles on the horizon to keep pushing. At some point, EVERYONE except those at the top will be in decline. It is inevitable. Looks like the "American Working Male" already is and has been in decline for quite some time now.
 

Paul98

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2010
3,732
199
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I'm not as naive as you people are that think shutting down trade with the rest of the world will somehow help us. Its quite laughable really.
If I disagree I must be "evil" right? Its all about "getting mine" right?
It couldn't possibly be a horrible idea or anything...

No one is saying we should shut down trade with the rest of the world. They are saying we should be responsible with who and how we trade with the rest of the world. So that we don't screw ourselves in the long run.
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
No one is saying we should shut down trade with the rest of the world. They are saying we should be responsible with who and how we trade with the rest of the world. So that we don't screw ourselves in the long run.

Too late?
 

Acanthus

Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
19,915
2
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ostif.org
How would strong tarrifs increase average income? I understand your view about it creating jobs, but, ok, lets say we have 20 million more people "making" things earning $12/hr, while trying to afford the now more expensive American made products?

Like most things in economics this would have a multiplier effect on our economy. There are easy to see residual effects all over the place.

1. Increased revenue from tariffs.
2. Increased domestic investment (the strongest indicator for GDP growth)
3. Increased domestic employment
4. Decreased investment in enemy nations (China)
5. Reduced independence on foreign trade.
6. Reduced outlays to idle workers (unemployment)
7. Increased tax revenue from the increased working populous
8. More domestic profit from corporations (more taxes)
9. Increasing worker wages as labor pool returns to normal (4-6% unemployment)

I could keep going... but yeah. As someone who studies economics day in and day out, I would say that tariffs against nations that exploit their labor pools are the best way to bring jobs and prosperity back home.
 

Acanthus

Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
19,915
2
76
ostif.org
I'm not as naive as you people are that think shutting down trade with the rest of the world will somehow help us. Its quite laughable really.
If I disagree I must be "evil" right? Its all about "getting mine" right?
It couldn't possibly be a horrible idea or anything...

I actually would like to see it tried just to show you people are stupid the idea is. Go ahead, lets do it, see what happens.

No one is suggesting shutting down trade.

They are suggesting equalizing trade with nations that exploit their labor pools.

We would continue normal trade with the EU, Australia, Japan, and many other nations. We would lay tariffs on nations like India, Bangladesh, China, the Malaysian islands, etc where workers make $6000 a year working 70 hours a week in dangerous conditions and get fired for being injured.

If they get their human rights up to snuff, then you can talk about reducing or dropping the tariffs.