The 6 big lies Guliani has made about 9/11

Page 2 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
It is entirely fine for you to think so, but you don't get to make that call for others. I feel it's germane to the thread's subject, whereas you are embracing a diversion by stating it's so well established that you have to establish it some more. If you have a problem with others making some speculation based on past history, well, tough.
Perhaps, but there are some in this forum that present speculation as facts, although I am sure from their perspective that which they believe is the truth...my interpretation is that this thread is almost a case study in what our political system has become...it is no longer a question of what each candidate stands for...it is very much the case of each side looking for any beloved patriot in the other sides's armor, and exploiting every discrepancy, case of double speak or perceived hypocracy as scandalous.

Would be nice if each side of the political divide could stand on the merits of their own platform, as opposed to cherry picking information in an attempt to torpedo their opponent...granted, there is a time and place for candidates to confront one another on certain issues, but the political hatchet job mentality of our political process is getting out of hand.

Gotta tell ya, your caveat of being 'disappointed' with Giuliani for supposedly not lying when it's pretty clear he did isn't really helping your desired image of political impartiality.
My disappointment with Guiliani stems from his decision to align with the Bush Administration, and surround himself with the political machine that supported Bush for the last 7 years. Given Guiliani's track record as mayor of NY, and his socially liberal perspective, I thought he would choose the path of returning the Republican Party to its true conservative roots...instead, he chose to align himself with what the Republican Party has become, which is unfortunate.

Monday Morning Quarterbacking? How is the fact that the WTC was attacked several years before and the fact that your own emergency response manager and police chief thinks putting the command center at an obvious terrorist target monday morning quarterbacking? IT'S BEEN ATTACKED BEFORE. In the age of high tech communications equipment, you want your command center in a SAFE place. It's like moving the Pentagon over to Iraq.
No it is not like moving the Pentagon to Iraq...the command center remained on American soil...it is not like NYC is or was a hostile war zone...what I am saying is that, given the chaos in our national security system just after 9/11, if Al Quaida wanted to hit the command center, they would have hit it...short of placing the command center in some highly secure underground bunker facility, I cannot see any building in NYC being more secure than others from a subsequent terrorist attack.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
2) You're kidding me, right? You don't see the motivation in lying about placing the EMERGENCY COMMAND CENTER at a site that was PREVIOUSLY ATTACKED by terrorists? That the police chief and your director of emergency management recommended AGAINST that site because it was too visible a terrorist target? That Guliani runs on 9/11 as his campaign and wants to be seen as the "President who wants to protect us" and a boneheaded move like this would say otherwise? PLEASE TELL ME YOU'RE KIDDING.
The emergency command center would arguably be a high priority target no matter where you locate it...that people are Monday morning quarterbacking the site selection, and who made the decision, are grasping at straws a bit.

He is lying and the article, which is NOT an opinion piece, points it out clearly.
The article is asserting what it thinks the Guiliani campaign stands for in terms of its platform respective to 9/11, and is attempting to find any sound byte or quote to refute those points...so the entire premise of the article is a bit misleading, and somewhat opinion based.

Because the terrorist's primary target was to destroy emergency response...

Nice one there. They weren't aiming for the emergency reponse center, it was a side benefit, but if they had located the thing in Brookyln they wouldn't have diverted a plane to attack it.

it was a horrible choice. There isn't really one NY'er that I have met in my 6 months of living here that thinks Guiliani would be a good President. He is a liar and a cheat.

As far as his crisis management, he had teams of people doing it. He is a guy who takes credit for everybody else's work, not a guy who does work himself.
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
126
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
2) You're kidding me, right? You don't see the motivation in lying about placing the EMERGENCY COMMAND CENTER at a site that was PREVIOUSLY ATTACKED by terrorists? That the police chief and your director of emergency management recommended AGAINST that site because it was too visible a terrorist target? That Guliani runs on 9/11 as his campaign and wants to be seen as the "President who wants to protect us" and a boneheaded move like this would say otherwise? PLEASE TELL ME YOU'RE KIDDING.
The emergency command center would arguably be a high priority target no matter where you locate it...that people are Monday morning quarterbacking the site selection, and who made the decision, are grasping at straws a bit.

He is lying and the article, which is NOT an opinion piece, points it out clearly.
The article is asserting what it thinks the Guiliani campaign stands for in terms of its platform respective to 9/11, and is attempting to find any sound byte or quote to refute those points...so the entire premise of the article is a bit misleading, and somewhat opinion based.

Because the terrorist's primary target was to destroy emergency response...

Nice one there. They weren't aiming for the emergency reponse center, it was a side benefit, but if they had located the thing in Brookyln they wouldn't have diverted a plane to attack it.

it was a horrible choice. There isn't really one NY'er that I have met in my 6 months of living here that thinks Guiliani would be a good President. He is a liar and a cheat.

As far as his crisis management, he had teams of people doing it. He is a guy who takes credit for everybody else's work, not a guy who does work himself.

Hmm, can he at least be credited with hiring those people? I do remember something about his hiring (and later firing) of the guy who people say "cleaned up New York City".
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: yllus
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
2) You're kidding me, right? You don't see the motivation in lying about placing the EMERGENCY COMMAND CENTER at a site that was PREVIOUSLY ATTACKED by terrorists? That the police chief and your director of emergency management recommended AGAINST that site because it was too visible a terrorist target? That Guliani runs on 9/11 as his campaign and wants to be seen as the "President who wants to protect us" and a boneheaded move like this would say otherwise? PLEASE TELL ME YOU'RE KIDDING.
The emergency command center would arguably be a high priority target no matter where you locate it...that people are Monday morning quarterbacking the site selection, and who made the decision, are grasping at straws a bit.

He is lying and the article, which is NOT an opinion piece, points it out clearly.
The article is asserting what it thinks the Guiliani campaign stands for in terms of its platform respective to 9/11, and is attempting to find any sound byte or quote to refute those points...so the entire premise of the article is a bit misleading, and somewhat opinion based.

Because the terrorist's primary target was to destroy emergency response...

Nice one there. They weren't aiming for the emergency reponse center, it was a side benefit, but if they had located the thing in Brookyln they wouldn't have diverted a plane to attack it.

it was a horrible choice. There isn't really one NY'er that I have met in my 6 months of living here that thinks Guiliani would be a good President. He is a liar and a cheat.

As far as his crisis management, he had teams of people doing it. He is a guy who takes credit for everybody else's work, not a guy who does work himself.

Hmm, can he at least be credited with hiring those people? I do remember something about his hiring (and later firing) of the guy who people say "cleaned up New York City".

Then, after he cleaned it up, he fired the guy and took all of the credit. Sure, he can take credit for hiring good people, just don't take the credit for yourself, nor claim you had any major part in it beyond hiring the people.

My first major job right out of school was for a pretty humble guy. He absolutely refused to take any credit for things he didn't do and would tell people about how he would guide me initially but let me do all of the work with minor help. That's one of the reasons why I have a good rep in my industry thus far, because he talked me up. As such, I talk him up as a very good guy.

I have a friend who has a boss that is the exact opposite. He manages himself upwards while taking credit for my friend's work. Some say thats the way it works, but it doesn't have to. Disengenuous people shouldn't get any credit but what they deserve. Guiliani deserves no credit at all.

 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
Originally posted by: loki8481
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
The Village Voice??? With such a great non-partisan source I am surprised more people haven?t commented on this thread. :roll:

I agree that the VV is left of the left, but care to actually comment on the context of the article?

though I'm sure they know nothing about Rudy... it's not like the paper has been based in NYC since the 1950's or anything.
I?ll try to touch on a few points, but really don?t care to read such a long and clearly biased piece. If I posted an article of this length containing Hillary?s big lies I am sure many of the people on here would feel the same way about reading it.

?BIG LIE 1. 'I think the thing that distinguishes me on terrorism is, I have more experience dealing with it.'?

Ok, of the major candidates who has MORE experience in dealing with terrorism than Rudy?
Romney can claim experience based on his experience as head of the Salt Lake Olympics, but not one other candidate had ANY first hand experience with terrorism.
Furthermore, the three leading Democrat candidates have NO executive experience at all. (at least governmental)

If this is a ?lie? show me the candidate with more experience than Rudy on terrorism.

?BIG LIE 2. 'I don't think there was anyplace in the country, including the federal government, that was as well prepared for that attack as New York City was in 2001.'?

Calling this a ?lie? is kind of a stretch since he is expressing an opinion, and one that is very hard to prove or disprove.
Proof that this is a ?lie? is provided via a history of the OEM and the failure of radios during 9/11. However, they provide no real evidence that any other city or government would have been better able to handle such a large scale event. They make an attempt by pointing to the Pentagon response, but you can?t compare a fire at the Pentagon to a fire at two 100 story buildings.

BIG LIE 3. Don't blame me for 7 WTC, Rudy says.

This one seems weak and kind of petty. Maybe the site Brooklyn would have been a better choice, but with all the chaos and confusion post 9/11 who knows what or how things would have turned out.

BIG LIE 4. 'Democrats do not understand the full nature and scope of the terrorist war against us.'

How is a personal opinion a ?lie?? Explain that to me.

?BIG LIE 5. 'Every effort was made by Mayor Giuliani and his staff to ensure the safety of all workers at Ground Zero.'?

Again we are getting into petty stuff here. To prove this is a lie you would have to prove that they were intentionally making incorrect decisions. It is easy to look back in hindsight and see all the mistakes made, it is much harder to notice the mistakes as you are making them. There was a lot of pressure from a lot of places to make quick progress in recovering the ?bodies? and I think that played a big part in how things happened.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
Originally posted by: Phokus
Monday Morning Quarterbacking? How is the fact that the WTC was attacked several years before and the fact that your own emergency response manager and police chief thinks putting the command center at an obvious terrorist target monday morning quarterbacking? IT'S BEEN ATTACKED BEFORE. In the age of high tech communications equipment, you want your command center in a SAFE place. It's like moving the Pentagon over to Iraq.
You are attempting to make too much out of the decision to locate the OEM in WTC 7.

1. If the terrorists were going to specifically target the location of the OEM than virtually no place would be safe.

2. Prior to 9-11 I don?t think anyone could have fathomed the idea that both trade centers and WTC 7 would be destroyed on the same day. Can you imagine someone going into a meeting and saying ?What if terrorists attack the WTC again and cause one of the buildings to fall and during its fall enough debris hit WTC 7 to weaken it and then a raging fire would cause the building to lose structural integrity and fall down itself.?

3. The Brooklyn site sounds like the solution to all problems. But what if the terrorists had attacked the cities bridges instead of the WTC? Then you would have the mayor, police chief, fire chief and all there major support staff on one island and the OEM on another and we would be sitting here 5 years later second guessing the decision to locate them on separate islands.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,686
136
From Starbuck-

The emergency command center would arguably be a high priority target no matter where you locate it...that people are Monday morning quarterbacking the site selection, and who made the decision, are grasping at straws a bit.

This remark shows a profound ignorance of the reason that the WTC and the Pentagon were selected as the targets of 9/11. In much of the world, they were the *Symbols of American Imperialism*, plain and simple. That's why they were targetted, not because of any other reason.

Obviously, the fact that the emergency preparedness command center was in the same complex had nothing to to with those reasons. Placing it there reflects rather poorly on Giuliani's ability to properly perceive the nature and purpose of terrorist threats...

WTF did they think the "We'll be Back" threat to the WTC meant, anyway? That they'd be bringing cookies?
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
126
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: Phokus
Monday Morning Quarterbacking? How is the fact that the WTC was attacked several years before and the fact that your own emergency response manager and police chief thinks putting the command center at an obvious terrorist target monday morning quarterbacking? IT'S BEEN ATTACKED BEFORE. In the age of high tech communications equipment, you want your command center in a SAFE place. It's like moving the Pentagon over to Iraq.
You are attempting to make too much out of the decision to locate the OEM in WTC 7.

1. If the terrorists were going to specifically target the location of the OEM than virtually no place would be safe.

2. Prior to 9-11 I don?t think anyone could have fathomed the idea that both trade centers and WTC 7 would be destroyed on the same day. Can you imagine someone going into a meeting and saying ?What if terrorists attack the WTC again and cause one of the buildings to fall and during its fall enough debris hit WTC 7 to weaken it and then a raging fire would cause the building to lose structural integrity and fall down itself.?

3. The Brooklyn site sounds like the solution to all problems. But what if the terrorists had attacked the cities bridges instead of the WTC? Then you would have the mayor, police chief, fire chief and all there major support staff on one island and the OEM on another and we would be sitting here 5 years later second guessing the decision to locate them on separate islands.

1. Except the terrorists wouldn't target the OEM, they want to target the area that causes the most damage in terms of lives and symbols of American power. The OEM just happened to be at a prime terrorist target!

2. Except that the terrorists did attack the WTC before, that's just ridiculous conjecture.

3. The purpose of the command center is to COMMAND. There's something called 'communications'. I hear it's kind of useful in helping lead disparate groups these days. I don't think you want or need the police chief and mayor picking through the rubble and leading people to safety from a terrorist attack. Common sense (not so common amongst guliani lovers apparently).

And of course you've dodged this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHPvg3BdMuk

 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,947
31,484
146
Originally posted by: loki8481
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
The Village Voice??? With such a great non-partisan source I am surprised more people haven?t commented on this thread. :roll:

I agree that the VV is left of the left, but care to actually comment on the context of the article?

though I'm sure they know nothing about Rudy... it's not like the paper has been based in NYC since the 1950's or anything.

exactly. ignorance is bliss for some. :D
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,947
31,484
146
Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
2) You're kidding me, right? You don't see the motivation in lying about placing the EMERGENCY COMMAND CENTER at a site that was PREVIOUSLY ATTACKED by terrorists? That the police chief and your director of emergency management recommended AGAINST that site because it was too visible a terrorist target? That Guliani runs on 9/11 as his campaign and wants to be seen as the "President who wants to protect us" and a boneheaded move like this would say otherwise? PLEASE TELL ME YOU'RE KIDDING.
The emergency command center would arguably be a high priority target no matter where you locate it...that people are Monday morning quarterbacking the site selection, and who made the decision, are grasping at straws a bit.

He is lying and the article, which is NOT an opinion piece, points it out clearly.
The article is asserting what it thinks the Guiliani campaign stands for in terms of its platform respective to 9/11, and is attempting to find any sound byte or quote to refute those points...so the entire premise of the article is a bit misleading, and somewhat opinion based.


I guess you didn't read the article. as it refers time and again to individuals withing Giuliani's staff at the time of every single event in question. It brings up official documents of public record that EXPLICITLY show how is campaign assertions are little more than bold-faced Lies. In fact, this instances have been reported in local news as they were happening. Did you not realize that Giulianni was loathed by the citizens of New York pre 9-11 for his duplicity and general skullduggery? His approval rating at the time would make GWB envious.

When did you confuse the term "fact" with "opinion?" This piece is as factual as it gets, but I suppose you know more about the politics and daily happenings in New York than does an established news staff at the Village Voice?
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,947
31,484
146
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
2) You're kidding me, right? You don't see the motivation in lying about placing the EMERGENCY COMMAND CENTER at a site that was PREVIOUSLY ATTACKED by terrorists? That the police chief and your director of emergency management recommended AGAINST that site because it was too visible a terrorist target? That Guliani runs on 9/11 as his campaign and wants to be seen as the "President who wants to protect us" and a boneheaded move like this would say otherwise? PLEASE TELL ME YOU'RE KIDDING.
The emergency command center would arguably be a high priority target no matter where you locate it...that people are Monday morning quarterbacking the site selection, and who made the decision, are grasping at straws a bit.

He is lying and the article, which is NOT an opinion piece, points it out clearly.
The article is asserting what it thinks the Guiliani campaign stands for in terms of its platform respective to 9/11, and is attempting to find any sound byte or quote to refute those points...so the entire premise of the article is a bit misleading, and somewhat opinion based.

Because the terrorist's primary target was to destroy emergency response...

Nice one there. They weren't aiming for the emergency reponse center, it was a side benefit, but if they had located the thing in Brookyln they wouldn't have diverted a plane to attack it.

it was a horrible choice. There isn't really one NY'er that I have met in my 6 months of living here that thinks Guiliani would be a good President. He is a liar and a cheat.

As far as his crisis management, he had teams of people doing it. He is a guy who takes credit for everybody else's work, not a guy who does work himself.

sounds familiar, don't it? ;)
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,947
31,484
146
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: loki8481
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
The Village Voice??? With such a great non-partisan source I am surprised more people haven?t commented on this thread. :roll:

I agree that the VV is left of the left, but care to actually comment on the context of the article?

though I'm sure they know nothing about Rudy... it's not like the paper has been based in NYC since the 1950's or anything.
I?ll try to touch on a few points, but really don?t care to read such a long and clearly biased piece.

I don't care to read the rest of your post, as it is clearly biased and could not possibly display factual information.

does this make sense to you, PJ?
 

Narmer

Diamond Member
Aug 27, 2006
5,292
0
0
Terrorists don't give a damn about OEMs. They care only about symbolic institutions and the WTC was one of the biggest. People here asserting that bin Laden was going after the OEM are just trying to deflect the topic.
 

JD50

Lifer
Sep 4, 2005
11,925
2,908
136
Too bad his lies pale in comparison to the biggest lying liar in US history.


July 1991: Question: "Have you ever used Marijuana or any illegal drugs?" Answer: "I've never broken any drug law." - Arkansas Gazette, July 24th, 1991, p. 8B
Asked this 3 times, on 3 separate occasions, by 3 different interviewers, your Great White Hope repeated this claim. Until faced with irrefutable proof, that is.

Then he said:

March 29th, 1992: "I've never broken a state law. But when I was in England I experimented with marijuana a time or two..."

Later, in that same interview, "No one has ever asked me that question point-blank."

- The New York Times, March 30th, 1992, p.A15.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Jan. 19, 1992 Bill Clinton said, "I want to make it very clear that this middle-class tax cut, in my view, is central to any attempt we're going to make to have a short-term economic strategy."

But on Jan. 14, 1993 at a press conference, Bill Clinton said, "From New Hampshire forward, for reasons that absolutely mystified me, the press thought the most important issue in the race was the middle-class tax cut. "I never did meet any voter who thought that."


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Sept. 8,1992, Bill Clinton said, "The only people who will pay more income taxes are the wealthiest 2 percent, those living in households making over $200,000 a year."

In response to a Bush-Quayle ad that people with incomes of as little as $36,000 would pay more taxes under the Clinton plan, Bill Clinton said on Oct. 1, 1992, "It's a disgrace to the American people that the president (Bush) of the United States would make a claim that is so baseless, that is so without foundation, so shameless in its attempt to get votes under false pretenses."

Yet the NY TIMES in the analysis of Clinton's budget wrote, "There are tax increases for every family making more than $20,000 a year!"

"While Clinton continued to defend his middle-class tax cut publicly, he privately expressed the view to his advisers that it was intellectually dishonest." (The Agenda, by Bob Woodward, p. 31)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In Business Week, July 6, 1992, Bill Clinton was quoted as saying, "When I began the campaign, the projected deficit was $250 billion. Now its up to $400 billion."

However in Time Magazine. 2 weeks later, Bill Clinton was quoted as saying, "When I started in New Hampshire working with those numbers, we felt the deficit was going to be around $250 billion a year, not $400 billion." Which is it, Bill?

But then he said on Feb. 10, 1993, "The deficit of this country is about $50 billion a year bigger than I was told it was going to be before the election." --our President said this after "discovering" that the deficit was $290 billion, $110 Billion LESS than he had claimed in July! Which story are we to believe from our president??


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

President Clinton said on March 23, 1993 at a press conference: "M economic package will cut $500 billion from the deficit in five years." Yet the projected deficit in 1998 with Clinton's budget is $234 billion, the projected deficit in 2001 with Clinton budget is $401 billion.(These figures come from Bill Clinton's budget document, "A Vision of Change for America."-Feb. 1993.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Wall Street Journal Opinion-Editorial Page 2/21/95
NUMBERS GAME

It's the season to cut government, or at least to claim to, so we perked up when we heard President Clinton declare in his State of the Union address that he had cut (quote) more than 100,000 positions from the federal bureaucracy in the last two years alone (unquote).

As they say in detective work, interesting - if true. So we decided to pull out the new federal budget to check. What we discovered is that Mr. Clinton isn't lying, but he isn't telling the whole truth either. His speeches need an asterisk.

From 1993 to Fiscal Year 1996, the Clinton Administration will in fact have cut the federal government by 157,000 full-time positions. But there's a catch: 131,000 of those positions are civilian Defense jobs. Those cuts reflect the inevitable post-cold War decline in military spending, not some brave retrenchment in the overall size of government.

There's another catch: Of the 26,000 positions to be cut from the non-Defense side of Leviathan, 9,500 come from the Resolution Trust Corp. and Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. Those two banking agencies grew like Topsy to manage the savings and loan debacle, but are now cutting back as the bailout ends. The RTC is even supposed to go out of business this year. The bottom line is that over the course of the Clinton presidency, the non-Defense, non-S&L part of the government will cut a measly 16,500 full-time positions out of some 1.2 million. In essence the domestic government is conducting business as usual.

Mr. Clinton also says he's making the federal establishment (quote) the smallest it has been since John Kennedy was President (unquote). But again, excluding Defense, total executive branch employment will be 1,181,000 in 1996. Back in 1963, when JFK was President, total non-Defense employment was a mere 861,000. Maybe that should be the 1996 goal for Republican budget- cutters; they could say they got the idea from the President.

Are you referring to the guy who absolutely, positively guaranteed that if he was elected governor of Arkansas in 1990 he would serve 4 years? The one who said that a 4% income tax rate on the wealthiest 2% of the population would raise 165 billion dollars, reduce the deficit, and allow a middle class tax cut? The one who claimed that the republicans had killed the Lani Guinier nomination? The one who claimed that he had decided to make himself available to the draft after 4 acquaintances were killed in Viet Nam (rather than after his birthday had been drawn #311 in the draft lottery)? The one who claimed that "affirmative action "benefits white men?

Are you referring to that Clinton?

No, he said that the new gasoline tax (4 cent per gallon) would go to a deficit reduction trust fund. No such fund has been established to date... it is going to the general fund to fund their increased social programs... check it out... call the government accounting office and ask... they are stealing your money...

And I give you my word to do it without the blame game of the last twelve years of Reagan and Bush.

Good, OOPS, that lasted almost a whole day!


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The NY Times reported that people earning under $100,000 paid an additional $3 billion in '94.

But wait, Clinton and the media claimed that only the top 2% were going to pay more taxes. Was that another lie from the Clinton administration?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

According to liberal Democrats, anyone who makes a dollar more than you is the "rich". On the issue of "taxes on the rich", consider the following:

Most of the "rich" are smart business men & women... they own and run their own businesses. In addition, Clinton passed a 1% increase in corporate income taxes...

If you owned your own business, or if you were the CFO of a corporation, and your cost of doing business went up, what would you do ? You'd pass this cost on...

Should they feel the heat, so to speak, they pass the new costs on to the principle consumers of the goods and services they offer...The middle-class and poor....So who really is paying Clinton's new taxes ?

As the saying goes. "When the "rich" get a sniffle, the middle-class catches pneumonia."

The real problem with this attack on the rich is the underlying assumption that this is a static class of people. Not so.

A great many people start off "poor" and as they move up in the business world become successful and eventually become what the Democrats would currently characterize as "rich." Indeed most of the wealth in this country is in the hands of senior citizens. Many of these people at one time had no money at all.

So, the attack on the rich is not an attack on some evil group. Its mostly an attack on people who after much sacrifice and hard work have finally reached their peak earning years and are trying to enjoy and pass on the fruits of their labor.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There were many other Clinton proposals that didn't fly (thank you) which would have further parted people from their capital....Here's a couple of winners he proposed in 1992....

Imputed rent...You would pay tax on "rent" that you would have collected FROM YOURSELF...Tax real, only...NO RENTAL INCOME !!!!!

Lower the inheritance threshold...From about $650,000 to around $200,000. What has been an exclusive tax of the rich, Clinton wanted to give as a gift to the middle-class...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsweek reports that Clinton and the Democrats will no longer pursue the rich vs. middle class America class warfare strategy. They realize that it won't help them politically and, according to Newsweek, "President Clinton...doesn't really believe in it."

Newsweek noted that they are abandoning it, so apparently, they do not agree, nor do their sources. Clinton has been bashing the rich since his campaign, claiming disingenuously that they are not paying their "fair share" of taxes, i.e. falsely implying that they are paying less than they did in '80. Hillary went after the "greedy" pharmaceutical companies, after selling their stock short. They have made many self-serving moralistic statements about the "greed" of the '80's. Clinton and the Democrats condemn Republican. tax cut plans because they claim it will "help the rich."

If this is not class warfare, what is?

Clinton has pursued this strategy for about 3 years, and now he claims he **doesn't really believe in it?** Hey, I'll buy that!

Newsweek reported it as "news." How strangely non-judgmental that they would not question the sincerity of Clinton's claim when his actions speak otherwise.

Clinton's economic policies ???

1) A massive tax increase

2) "Hope" that interest rates would remain low

3) A few R & D credits for Al Gore's pet high tech industries

Was there anything else ?

In reference to the Social Security trust fund --

"But its important that we not panic; there is no immediate danger to retirement. Our accumulated surpluses would be sufficient to pay the liabilities to 2029 at current payroll tax rates."

From an interview; published in the May '95 issue of Money magazine.

Hasn't anyone told him that the Social Security trust fund has no money -- Congress borrowed it all and left IOUs with no plans yet on how to redeem those IOU's?

Given that Clinton seems so concerned about the hateful rhetoric in: politics these days, I wonder if he intends to limits such violent: statements as "taking food from the mouths of children", "war on the poor", "throwing the elderly out on the streets", and "contract _on_ America, Evil, Extreme, Mean Spirited and on and on and on.

We've given more power to states and localities and to private citizens. Our proposals would further accelerate those trends. Bill Clinton, White House press conference, 3/3/95

Fact: Clinton lobbied to defeat the Balance Budget Amendment in the Senate, so states and localities are prevented from getting the chance to even debate the amendment. His Administration opposes giving block grants to the states. He is opposing all Block Grants as well.

We support adding 100,000 new police officers. Bill Clinton, same news conference.

Fact: There are no "100,000 police officers". Never has been, never will be. Even liberal columnist DeWayne Wickam concluded in USA Today: "Many of the 100,00 cops promised in the crime bill will never materialize". On the day AFTER Clinton signed the bill into law, The New York Times reported that "some law enforcement analyst said the Administration has in effect misled local officials by vastly overstating the number of police officers who can be hired under the program".

It's called lying where I come from, how about where you came from?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Everyone knows that I have tougher ethic rules than any other President. Bill Clinton, news conference 3/3/95 defending the ethical standards of his administration.

Fact: In addition to his own Whitewater troubles and many high-level resignations, several members of his cabinet are currently facing probes in their conduct, including four "Special Prosecutors..

The budget which came from the President said,, I've given up; that as long I am President of the United States there will never be a balanced budget. That is an astonishing statement. Paul Tsongas, at a Capitol Hill press conference, 2/7/95.

Clinton said, "Who do these people think they are?" referring to people who stockpile guns, "No other government in the world would allow their citizens to do that."


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How about this!

Sara Brady was quoted in several papers and magazines at an Hand Gun Incorporated rally a couple of weeks before the Senate vote saying..." Our main agenda is to have ALL guns banned. We must use whatever means possible. It doesn't matter if you have to distort facts or even lie.

"Our task of creating a Socialist America can only succeed when those who would resist us have been totally disarmed." -- Sarah Brady (President of Handgun Control, Inc. and wife of James Brady, whom the Brady Bill was named for and was recently "honored" by Clinton)

Democratic Rep. David Obey said "I think most of us learned some time ago that if you don't like the president's position on a particular issue, you simply need to wait a few weeks."


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Foreign Policy?

Well, let's see, start with Somalia. It's not the first, but its one of the best known. In the winter of 1992 George Bush ordered US troops to guard food shipments in and around the ports. The deployment ended in March, a resounding success. A couple of months later Clinton got suckered into sending the Marines back in as 'nation builders'. In the course of which he deliberately violated Executive Orders of the Presidency not to engage in deliberate or willful assassination of foreign political or military leaders; you DO remember the AC130 gunships firing wildly into civilian occupied apartment buildings, in an effort to murder a Somali warlord and his followers, don't you? I didn't think so. Long term memory is not a strong suite of the Clintonestae.

Want a small disaster? At the opening of the Holocaust Memorial, 1993. A luncheon was served afterwards for the distinguished Jewish guests and foreign dignitaries. The main entree' was Honey baked Ham.

Bosnia. Bosnia is always good for a laugh. On the campaign trail, Candidate Clinton said that he was qualified as Commander In Chief of the Arkansas National Guard to make military decisions. As an example, he bragged that if he were elected, he would bomb the Serbs. In May of 1993, he sent Warren Christopher to convince the Europeans to allow him to do just that. Christopher went with the 'strongest message possible' to urge England, France, and Germany that he was fully committed to this course. Even as the Secretary of State was waiting to meet with them in Geneva, Your Great White Hope appeared on the tube and said that 'bombing the Serbs probably wouldn't be necessary'. Warren Christopher is not noted for emotional displays: Some have suggested that he has had the centers in his brain responsible for emotion surgically removed. After Christopher heard what Fearless Leader did, he ALMOST cracked a frown. The Europeans went ballistic. This year Clinton pushed the bombing schtick again to make himself look tougher than the average weenie and we all know what happened: The Serbs have basically gone on to conquer Bosnia. In that sad country you now have Serbian held territory and UN funded and run Serbian concentration camps disguised as 'safe havens'. The only reason these haven't been overrun is the Serbs haven't got the vaguest idea what to do with the refugees huddled in them.

"OH!" you shriek hysterically, "PREVIOUS ADMINISTRATIONS HAVE HAD FAILURES, TOO! IT'S NOT FAAAAAAAIIIIIIIIRRRRR THAT BILL

CLINTON IS BEING JUDGED SO HARSHLY!!!!" Previous administrations had more successes than failures. George Bush built an international coalition to defeat Iraq in the Gulf War - even got the Arabs to talk to the Israelis afterwards. Ronald Reagan stopped the advance of Marxism in this hemisphere and cracked the will of the Soviets hard-liners to continue the Cold War. Carter, whatever else he may have failed at, can always look back at the Camp David Accords. Ford wasn't President long enough to do more than handle domestic problems, but Nixon reopened the dialogue with China. And so on back through American history. Yes, they had failures, but never were so many failures in so short a time the result of INCREDIBLE INCOMPETENCE by an Administration.

Dan Rather responding to congratulations to him and Connie Chung during and interview shortly after they teamed up together, "If we could be one-hundredth as gret as you and Hillary Rodham Clinton have been together in the White House," the supposedly objective newsman said, "we'd take it right now and walk away winners."

"We can't be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans"

- President Clinton (USA TODAY, 11 March 1993, page 2A)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Vice President Al Gore's interview on ABC's "This Week with David Brinkley," Sunday, August 25, 1996

Vice President Al Gore made a number of assertions during this interview which we feel require additional clarification.

Medicare

"Beyond that, the Republican Party, specifically Speaker Gingrich, said that he wanted to make changes that would cause Medicare to wither on the vine." --Al Gore, ABC's "This Week with David Brinkley," 8/25/96

Wrong! Al Gore quoted Speaker Gingrich out of context. What the Speaker actually said was:

"Okay, what do you think the Health Care Financing Administration is? It's a centralized command bureaucracy. It's everything we're telling Boris Yeltzin to get rid of. Now we don't get rid of it in round one because we don't think that's politically smart. We don't think that's the right way to go through a transition. But we believe its going to wither on the vine because we think people are voluntarily going to leave it -- voluntarily." --Speaker Newt Gingrich, remarks to Blue Cross/Blue Shield conference, 10/24/95

In their 1992 campaign, Clinton and Gore endorsed scrapping the Health Care Financing Administration:

"We will scrap the Health Care Financing Administration and replace it with a health standards board -- made up of consumers, providers, business, labor and government -- that will establish annual health budget targets and outline a core benefits package." --Bill Clinton and Al Gore, Putting People First, 1992


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

100,000 Cops

"The president has formed an alliance with the law enforcement officers around this country and experts in fighting crime, passed legislation, over the opposition of Senator Dole and Speaker Gingrich, that is now putting 100,000 extra community police officers on the streets." --Al Gore, ABC's "This Week with David Brinkley," 8/25/96

Wrong again!

"What I am advised is that there are 17,000 officers that can be identified as being on the streets." --Attorney General Janet Reno, media availability, 5/16/96

Worse, not all of these cops are fighting crime:

"At least $7.2 million in COPS grants has been used to hire 86 officers for state parks, marinas and other areas seemingly far removed from violent crime." --Investor's Business Daily, 7/16/96

Reducing government

"We have downsized the federal government during the last four years by 250,000 people." --Al Gore, ABC's "This Week with David Brinkley," 8/25/96

What Gore didn't say was that Clinton accomplished this by gutting Defense:

"President Clinton's plan three years ago to 'reinvent' government and cut the federal work force by nearly 252,000 jobs never mentioned that the military would absorb 75 percent of the cuts." --The Washington Times, 8/23/96


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The national debt

"The debt, which was just ballooning out of control under the previous two administrations, has now been cut by 60 percent." --Al Gore, ABC's "This Week with David Brinkley," 8/25/96

Wrong! According to statistics released in February, 1996 by Clinton's own Office of Management and Budget, the gross federal debt for fiscal year 1992 was $4.002 trillion. By fiscal year 1995 it had "ballooned" to $4.921 trillion -- an increase of 23 percent.

Bill Clinton during a visit in Italy, to his hosts: "Just think, we are walking on the very ground where Romulus and Remus walked".

-- Bill Clinton (They are fictional characters)

"There is a feeling among reporters that the truth and Clinton don't often go together. Reporters have a feeling he is a man without conviction." -- Ken Auletta, a media columnist for the New Yorker

 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
I guess you didn't read the article. as it refers time and again to individuals withing Giuliani's staff at the time of every single event in question. It brings up official documents of public record that EXPLICITLY show how is campaign assertions are little more than bold-faced Lies. In fact, this instances have been reported in local news as they were happening. Did you not realize that Giulianni was loathed by the citizens of New York pre 9-11 for his duplicity and general skullduggery? His approval rating at the time would make GWB envious.
I did read the article, and I will say it again...the Village Voice is attempting to project its perception of Guiliani's platform, and then challenging those perceptions by escalating talking points that most would shrug off as typical political duplicity.

Big Lie #3 is the only one worth debating as it speaks to a specific decision made by Guiliani...the others are intangible claims open to interpretation.

When did you confuse the term "fact" with "opinion?" This piece is as factual as it gets, but I suppose you know more about the politics and daily happenings in New York than does an established news staff at the Village Voice?
The Village Voice is hardly an unbiased news source...when they run a similar article on Hillary or Obama or Edwards, I will take them seriously...at the very least, surely it would be appropriate for a NYC based newspaper to write an article on Senator Clinton, and her duplicity over the years...otherwise, they are simply firing torpedos on behalf of the Democratic Party.

The article doesn't reveal anything enlightening about Guiliani...it simply illustrates that Guiliani, like most of the front runners, is full of it.

 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
Originally posted by: Narmer
Terrorists don't give a damn about OEMs. They care only about symbolic institutions and the WTC was one of the biggest. People here asserting that bin Laden was going after the OEM are just trying to deflect the topic.
Right on the money with that comment.

Plus a lot of the communication problems that occurred after the fall of the towers were related to the towers falling on phones lines etc. They could have located the OEM in Albany and they would have had many of the same problems.