The 2014 WEC/Le Mans thread!

_Rick_

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Apr 20, 2012
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Well, with the WEC kicking off soon enough, and the regulations being quite interesting and very efficiency oriented, I thought this warrants it's won thread.

And I just read - probably a bit late to the party - that Audi will dump it's originally announced electrical turbo - similar to the system running in F1 - and instead revert to a purely kinetic system, to drop from the highest hybrid category (which is what Porsche and Toyota are currently planning to use) to the lowest, and thus being allowed more fuel per lap, and gaining some flexibility with regard to weight. To counter the loss of hybrid power, they went up to a 4.0L V6 Diesel.

First race is at Silverstone on 20th of April.

I wonder what the tactical implications are of the efficiency rules. Cars deliberately going over the allotment, to give other cars of the same team a pull down the straight, and then gaining that back next lap, while drafting the car that was in front of them last lap? It would probably make sense, especially at LM, where they have the three long straights, that used to be the Mulsanne.
 
Mar 10, 2005
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the team drafting would only be practical at le mans, with about 4 miles of straights total. the best use of the strategy is to sacrifice 1 or 2 cars to advance the 3rd. you'd want to transfer the allotted energy from your "support" to your "ace". if you keep bouncing it back and forth, it's a net loss and not worth the effort of sync'ing them up.

i will be cheering on mark webber and porsche, and i suspect i'm not alone :D

my opinion is that multiple tiers/formulas within a class are lousy, and the rules should be as streamlined as possible. diesel or gas, x fuel total, y flow rate, z electrical capacity...go!
 

_Rick_

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my opinion is that multiple tiers/formulas within a class are lousy, and the rules should be as streamlined as possible. diesel or gas, x fuel total, y flow rate, z electrical capacity...go!

That's pretty much what they go for, except limiting the electrical capacity to 4 different levels, from 2/4/6/8 MJ, and then defining 4 fuel consumption levels to balance out the overall energy per lap. Sounds like what you describe.
 

_Rick_

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Right, so Silverstone was a disaster for Audi.
The car appears to be on the pace, but the drivers and strategy put both cars into the walls. Ouch.
Toyota got a 1-2, with one Porsche behind and another retired after losing a wheel.
Fourth place therefore went to a Rebellion Lola on a good old V8 :D

Pacewise the Toyotas looked strong at Silverstone, qualifying on pole, and having the upper hand even while the Audis were still in the running.
 
Mar 10, 2005
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audi says they "have a race against time" to get the wrecked cars ready for spa in 2 weeks. i think they'll be fine. these are the guys that started le mans with the back half of 1 car and won with the back half of another.

i have to think the circumstances are good for toyota, and therefor the sport. toyota doesn't like looking bad, ever, and would rather walk away than compete unsuccessfully. porsche is not inclined to bail so easily.
 

Skurge

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Aug 17, 2009
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I'm cheering for mark and Porsche. Good 1st race. Toyota's are looking quick, porsche wasn't to bad. The managed both teams really well. I don't know what Audi was thinking with their strategy.
 

Phanuel

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Apr 25, 2008
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I'm still an Audi fan, but what a disappointing race for them. However I am extremely happy to see P1 competition again forcing Audi to race again.
 

marincounty

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Nov 16, 2005
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The only reason Audi ever won a race with a diesel is because of rule manipulation.
Say no to dirty diesels.
 

Phanuel

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Apr 25, 2008
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You really should watch this entire interview, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TAhWdVU3M4#t=1154, because it's really good. But the important parts are that Ulrich would like to go back to petrol before he retires and that the teams decide on the rules and they've been pushing to make the two power trains equal over the years but it's hard to do.

I like the diesel cars myself. I love the jet engine sound of the huge turbos and the woosh as they go by.
 

Skurge

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Aug 17, 2009
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I can't find any articles, but the year the R10 was introduced. The rules for engines size, boost pressure and displacement were changed. The minimum weight was also increased.

If not for those changes, the R10 would have been overweight and underpowered. The other Diesel engine was much lighter and smaller. I cannot recall if it was introduced the same year as the R10 or later and I can't remember who it was.

So you can say the rules were necessary for diesel to be competitive, but right now, Audi has a very small, very light engine that is the most powerful on the grid. So They should have made a plan to bring out a diesel that didn't need those rule changes.

Of course there is no proof that Audi got the ACO to make those changes, but it's fairly obvious.
 
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http://www.imotortimes.com/2014-6-h...-porsche-919-hybrid-qualifies-first-wec-30424

The 6 Hours of Spa-Francochamps will begin Saturday, May 3, at 8:30 a.m. EDT. The complete 6 Hours of Spa-Francochamps live stream online will be available on the 24 Hours of Le Mans official website. Radio Le Mans will also commentate the 6 Hours of Spa-Francochamps. Finally, the official WEC website will offer live timing and scoring. The race at Spa will mark the second race in the 2014 WEC calendar. More importantly, the Porsche 919 has earned its maiden pole and are truly bringing the fight to Toyota and Audi with just one month left until the 24 Hours of Le Mans.
 

_Rick_

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Apr 20, 2012
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I can't find any articles, but the year the R10 was introduced. The rules for engines size, boost pressure and displacement were changed. The minimum weight was also increased.

If not for those changes, the R10 would have been overweight and underpowered. The other Diesel engine was much lighter and smaller. I cannot recall if it was introduced the same year as the R10 or later and I can't remember who it was.

So you can say the rules were necessary for diesel to be competitive, but right now, Audi has a very small, very light engine that is the most powerful on the grid. So They should have made a plan to bring out a diesel that didn't need those rule changes.

Of course there is no proof that Audi got the ACO to make those changes, but it's fairly obvious.

The only other Diesel runner I know of, was Peugeot.

And currently Audi has the most powerful engine, because they have the least in electric power over the course of a lap. And I suspect the Diesel is still much heavier than Porsche's boxer 4.
 

Skurge

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Aug 17, 2009
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Another win for Toyata. They are looking mighty. Porsche Showed some good speed. They looked the faster car this weekend. If they get their issues sorted which seem minor. I expected more issues for a new project. Audi are not looking so great for LeMans. They are still bulletproof and seem easier on their tires than the other 2, but they aren't as fast overall.

Lemans is going to be good.
 

_Rick_

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Apr 20, 2012
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The straight line speed deficit of even the LM-spec Audi (#3) is going to cost them dearly at la Sarthe. Especially since the low drag variant was even slower per lap at Spa than the standard version, and while there are a few high-speed turns (Eau Rouge, the long double left, and the kink before the bus stop) the corner-to-straight ratio isn't too dissimilar from Le Mans. And while the Audis do run like a clockwork, which helps in a 24hour race, they have to hope that bad luck besets Toyota. Porsche has a fast, but new and very complex car, and breakdowns are still too frequent for them to be serious contenders over longer distances.

Rebellion got in a few laps with one of their cars, while the Strakka/Lotus didn't pass an FIA crash test. And even though those cars are simpler proposition to the hybrids, especially for Strakka the outlook for Le Mans is grim. With little testing and a chassis redesign necessary, just 4 weeks before the race, we'll have to see whether they can get something ready for the race, to the point where a carefully driven car will at least make it to the finish.
 

Phanuel

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Apr 25, 2008
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When will Toyota make an exciting car again though?

That's kind of my biggest frustration with all of this hybrid is that the only exciting hybrids are the hypercars coming out of Porsche and McLaren. The rest of the street legal hybrids are boring, slow, efficient mobiles.

What's the point in spending all this racing money on something you'll probably never put on the road.
 
Mar 10, 2005
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When will Toyota make an exciting car again though?

That's kind of my biggest frustration with all of this hybrid is that the only exciting hybrids are the hypercars coming out of Porsche and McLaren. The rest of the street legal hybrids are boring, slow, efficient mobiles.

What's the point in spending all this racing money on something you'll probably never put on the road.

sounds like you're in a real dilemma. what color will you be purchasing?

by the way, the la ferrari is worth adding to your shopping list, and there will be more numerous and less expensive hybrid performance cars in the near future.

the technologies developed by race teams certainly do end up on the road - 2014's f1 and lmp cars are getting about 40% fuel efficiency, compared to a current road car's 25%. any manufacturer would kill to bring that to market.
 

Phanuel

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Apr 25, 2008
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sounds like you're in a real dilemma. what color will you be purchasing?

by the way, the la ferrari is worth adding to your shopping list, and there will be more numerous and less expensive hybrid performance cars in the near future.

the technologies developed by race teams certainly do end up on the road - 2014's f1 and lmp cars are getting about 40% fuel efficiency, compared to a current road car's 25%. any manufacturer would kill to bring that to market.

If I had the kind of money to buy a LaFerrari/918/P1, would I be posting here in the ATG? I'm not [username redacted] attention-seeker.

The efficiency improvements are amazing, no doubt. 30% less fuel in LMP1 and 10-20% faster? Yes please. However we're still just going to get Priuses and the like out of for awhile. Like the Audi E-tron A3 which is just a Prius competitor.
 

_Rick_

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Apr 20, 2012
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I remember when Audi dropped a big Diesel into the R8 a few years back. It kept eating the gearbox though, and apparently there wasn't a market, so it was never sold.

But I expect a hybrid 911 in the next 5-10 years. Probably once all the 918 have been finished. Maybe not on the 991 platform, but the successor at the latest.

And, the LFA isn't that old. I would say that that was quite the exciting Toyota :D
GT86 is more fun than exciting, but an NSX rival may still come out of Toyota in the next few years.
I expect the next Ferrari FF to also be a hybrid. That kind of car is well suited to it.

With F1/WEC finally accepting hybrid power as something more than a gimmick, I think we will see more GTs and even sportscars adapt that formula. I'm actually surprised the California T didn't come with a hybrid option.

I'm not sure we'll see the next Astons with hybrid systems quite yet, but I would be damn sure that right now there are R8 mules running with hybrid power trains.

Testing begins in ten days at la Sarthe.
Any news from Strakka?
 

Skurge

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Aug 17, 2009
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When will Toyota make an exciting car again though?

That's kind of my biggest frustration with all of this hybrid is that the only exciting hybrids are the hypercars coming out of Porsche and McLaren. The rest of the street legal hybrids are boring, slow, efficient mobiles.

What's the point in spending all this racing money on something you'll probably never put on the road.

BMW i8?
There are hybrid 911s being tested. The Panamera E-Hybrid is no slouch either. If it weren't for LMP1, F1 and the hybrid hyper cars, this stuff would take much longer to get into sports cars. Instead of 5-10 years for that stuff to show up in regular cars, it would take 3 times that.
 
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http://www.racecar-engineering.com/cars/porsche-919/

http://www.racecar-engineering.com/cars/audi-lmp14/

http://www.racecar-engineering.com/cars/toyota-ts040/

Le Mans teams warned about flexible aerodynamics

“regarding the front part skid-block, we have observed during scrutineering that each of your cars had some flexibility in order to prevent any damaging of the underside of cockpit in case of unwanted passage out of track or on kerbs.
Formally speaking this contravenes article 3.4 of the LMP1 regulations. However as it seems indispensable and used by all of you, we agree not to apply strictly this article for this specific part. In order to be fair to everybody, we will accept a flexibility in that point of: 10 mm under 500 daN. To be absolutely clear, we make it mandatory to have a stop effect and that this deflection cannot under no circumstances be more than 15 mm.”

in other words, we've decided you're all cheating equally, and what could be more fair that that? carry on.