The #1 North Korea 2013 tension thread [with rolling updates!]

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Zeze

Lifer
Mar 4, 2011
11,074
995
126
The child is stomping their feet louder in the corner.

Do we

A. Let them stomp their feet until they realize it wont get them what they want?
B. Reward this behavior and bend to their demands.

NK has never honored the pact anyhow.

May provided the "legal" ability for SK to slap some sense into NK if provoked like other times.

It's another level of bigger chest beating. They've already sunk an SK ship which killed hundreds couple years ago.

Then wtf was the point of the peace pact and breaking them?

What a joke. Somebody should bitch slap them silly. I mean it literally- go over there and slap them across their fat faces.
 
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Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,134
38
91
So you believe that because a war might happen someday we should force it to happen now? Ever hear of the Cold War? You honestly think a nuke exchange would have preferable?

Would you prefer to fight them today or 5 years from now? Would you prefer to fight them today or 10 years ago when they had no nuclear weapons?
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,134
38
91
It's another level of bigger chest beating. They've already sunk an SK ship which killed hundreds couple years ago.

Then wtf was the point of the peace pact and breaking them?

What a joke. Somebody should bitch slap them silly. I mean it literally- go over there and slap them across their fat faces.

It was 46 sailors, not "hundreds". And this is no laughing matter. I honestly don't believe this guy is in full control and something may come of this.
 

Zeze

Lifer
Mar 4, 2011
11,074
995
126
It was 46 sailors, not "hundreds". And this is no laughing matter. I honestly don't believe this guy is in full control and something may come of this.

Thanks for the correction. Yeah, a fvcking 46 of South Koreans dead and SK did nothing about it. As blood boiling as that is, it's smart and shows how much NK has SK by the balls.

Would you prefer to fight them today or 5 years from now? Would you prefer to fight them today or 10 years ago when they had no nuclear weapons?

I don't think they'll commit murder-suicide. The fat generals are too comfy to give that up. They are corrupted, not insane without reason.

I think they'll slowly loosen up over many many decades like the old China.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,095
513
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It's another level of bigger chest beating. They've already sunk an SK ship which killed hundreds couple years ago.

Then wtf was the point of the peace pact and breaking them?

What a joke. Somebody should bitch slap them silly. I mean it literally- go over there and slap them across their fat faces.

The point of breaking these pacts is to get more of what they desire. They are like a child that pouts until it gets what it wants. At what point do we act like the adult and not let them get away with it?
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,134
38
91
Thanks for the correction. Yeah, a fvcking 46 of South Koreans dead and SK did nothing about it. As blood boiling as that is, it's smart and shows how much NK has SK by the balls.



I don't think they'll commit murder-suicide. The fat generals are too comfy to give that up. They are corrupted, not insane without reason.

I think they'll slowly loosen up over many many decades like the old China.

If what you say is true then I have no idea what the end-game here is with these escalation of threats. It just doesn't make any sense. What exactly do they hope to accomplish? It's not as if the threats have worked in the past. They are still poor. Still starving. Still weak. It does not help them one bit.
 

IndyColtsFan

Lifer
Sep 22, 2007
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If what you say is true then I have no idea what the end-game here is with these escalation of threats. It just doesn't make any sense. What exactly do they hope to accomplish? It's not as if the threats have worked in the past. They are still poor. Still starving. Still weak. It does not help them one bit.

It has helped them in the past as a means of extracting concessions. The temper tantrums and chest beating have typically gotten them more humanitarian aid, which probably equates to food for their military.

IMO, we just need to cut off all aid to them, sanction anyone who does give them aid, and move a couple of our fleets off the coast and monitor their nuclear sites and the DMZ. I don't believe we should pre-emptively strike them, although it is a fun mental exercise to imagine what NK would do if we undertook a cruise missile and limited air campaign to take out all their artillery and nuclear sites. They would literally have no recourse.
 

Zeze

Lifer
Mar 4, 2011
11,074
995
126
I don't believe we should pre-emptively strike them, although it is a fun mental exercise to imagine what NK would do if we undertook a cruise missile and limited air campaign to take out all their artillery and nuclear sites. They would literally have no recourse.

US wisely has folders of information on how to take out every nations.

In the midst of this NK tension, I'm sure SK & US already have a thoroughly detailed plan on how to demolish NK or react to them if they strike.
 

IndyColtsFan

Lifer
Sep 22, 2007
33,656
687
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US wisely has folders of information on how to take out every nations.

In the midst of this NK tension, I'm sure SK & US already have a thoroughly detailed plan on how to demolish NK or react to them if they strike.

Imagine a pre-emptive strike wiping out all of NK's artillery and nuclear facilities within a few hours. They literally would not be able to retaliate.
 

Doppel

Lifer
Feb 5, 2011
13,306
3
0
It also has an arsenal of intermediate range missiles in operational deployment, some of which can travel more than 3,000 km (1,875 miles). That puts South Korea and Japan in range as well as the U.S. territory of Guam.

Realistically, this sounds like Saddam and his SCUDS. Practically speaking I am guessing (?) that Japan is more or less immune to anything NK would do; certainly no wide spread devastation.

North Korea officially voids non-aggression pacts with South, severs the hotline

On a technical level, this is huge as they've never done this before.

Agree, they have run out of things other than more outright attacks now.

I honestly don't believe this guy is in full control and something may come of this.

Does it matter who is in control? It's not like Kim Un is a nice guy who anybody can trust.

My position on NK has and remains that like any other nation it is not suicidal. It will not launch an attack that is inevitably going to result in a massive retaliation (e.g. bombarding Seoul) because those in power know they will lose it.

NK is very talented at giving the impression it is crazy. The fact it killed SKens in recent attacks without physical repercussions shows that they are indeed believed to be crazy. It's hard to imagine any other country rolling over after 46 of its sailors taken out in a random attack. SK is genuinely quite scared of NK.

In the midst of this NK tension, I'm sure SK & US already have a thoroughly detailed plan on how to demolish NK or react to them if they strike.

Many plans, definitely, along with detailed knowledge of where their artillery is or is likely to be. If any conflict went large there would be a list of coordinates to hit which are regularly reviewed to ensure they are still valid.

The only large threat NK poses to SK is via its artillery. I assume that at some point anti-artillery (like Israel's Iron Dome) will be perfected and deployed such that it could counter this and then NK will be impotent.
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
11
76
A pre-emptive strike really is the best option with NK. If we wait for them to touch off the conflict, their first COA is to crater our runways in Japan, grounding our bombers\fighters and delaying our ability to establish air superiority. Then they shell the crap out of the south and roll out the tanks and troops over ground and underground through dozens of tunnels that we haven't yet discovered. It would be be a rough few days\weeks until we could establish air superiority. Having an aircraft carrier in the region would help.
 

CPA

Elite Member
Nov 19, 2001
30,322
4
0
If you haven't read it yet, read this book. One of the best NK books I've read.

LOL, just finished this book this morning on the bus ride in. Fantastic book, couldn't put it down. it's amazing what some of these people went through, yet still believed the way they were living was the right way.
 

CPA

Elite Member
Nov 19, 2001
30,322
4
0
I presume you read "Escape From Camp 14" by Blaine Harden, the true story of a man that escaped from one of NK's concentration camps. Remarkable story, kind of illustrates what miserable conditions humans will suffer through-included innocent descendants and relatives of the purported crimminals.

NK will collapse someday and when it happens it will happen rather fast. I would say most of us thought the Berlin Wall and Iron Curtain were essentially permanent until just a few months (or days, in the Berlin Wall case) before they fell. The only real question is whether it will happen next week or in a couple of decades, but it will happen.

http://www.amazon.com/Escape-Camp-14.../dp/0670023329

Yes, read that book too. Another amazing one. Looking for my next. Possibly could be one of the few firsthand accounts of working with Kim Jung-Il. Not sure yet.
 

IndyColtsFan

Lifer
Sep 22, 2007
33,656
687
126
LOL, just finished this book this morning on the bus ride in. Fantastic book, couldn't put it down. it's amazing what some of these people went through, yet still believed the way they were living was the right way.

My favorite story was the lady who escaped into China (IIRC, she was a doctor in NK) and saw a bowl of rice and meat just sitting outside a house. She couldn't understand why it was just sitting outside and then the realization hit -- dogs in China were eating better than people in North Korea.
 

Zeze

Lifer
Mar 4, 2011
11,074
995
126
My favorite story was the lady who escaped into China (IIRC, she was a doctor in NK) and saw a bowl of rice and meat just sitting outside a house. She couldn't understand why it was just sitting outside and then the realization hit -- dogs in China were eating better than people in North Korea.

Jesus Christ that's sad, what book is this? She was a DOCTOR, not some farmer yet she also starved?
 

zsdersw

Lifer
Oct 29, 2003
10,560
2
0
If Q from Star Trek was real and I were one of them, I'd love to just snap my fingers and eliminate all of the NK government's weapons, make the disarmament public to both the NK people and the rest of the world, and then ask Kimberly what he'd like to do next.
 

Juddog

Diamond Member
Dec 11, 2006
7,852
6
81
We need to nuke the shit out of NK. Seriously just let them die in a fire in a pre-emptive strike before they gain the ICBM tech from Iran.
 

CPA

Elite Member
Nov 19, 2001
30,322
4
0
Jesus Christ that's sad, what book is this? She was a DOCTOR, not some farmer yet she also starved?

It's the book that Indy linked too above. There's also an account about a teacher who's class of first graders went from around 40 to 12-15 in the course of a year or so, many of the kids dying from malnutrition or used to forage for food all day long.
 

IndyColtsFan

Lifer
Sep 22, 2007
33,656
687
126
Jesus Christ that's sad, what book is this? She was a DOCTOR, not some farmer yet she also starved?

This book, and it is a must read. And no, being a doctor doesn't mean you're well fed unless you're a "party elite" and in Pyongyang or another party stronghold.
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,134
38
91
Realistically, this sounds like Saddam and his SCUDS. Practically speaking I am guessing (?) that Japan is more or less immune to anything NK would do; certainly no wide spread devastation.



Agree, they have run out of things other than more outright attacks now.



Does it matter who is in control? It's not like Kim Un is a nice guy who anybody can trust.

My position on NK has and remains that like any other nation it is not suicidal. It will not launch an attack that is inevitably going to result in a massive retaliation (e.g. bombarding Seoul) because those in power know they will lose it.

NK is very talented at giving the impression it is crazy. The fact it killed SKens in recent attacks without physical repercussions shows that they are indeed believed to be crazy. It's hard to imagine any other country rolling over after 46 of its sailors taken out in a random attack. SK is genuinely quite scared of NK.



Many plans, definitely, along with detailed knowledge of where their artillery is or is likely to be. If any conflict went large there would be a list of coordinates to hit which are regularly reviewed to ensure they are still valid.

The only large threat NK poses to SK is via its artillery. I assume that at some point anti-artillery (like Israel's Iron Dome) will be perfected and deployed such that it could counter this and then NK will be impotent.

That's in theory. In practice I doubt they maintain all those artilleries and missile batteries. I bet, when push comes to shove, half of their equipment will not work.
 

IndyColtsFan

Lifer
Sep 22, 2007
33,656
687
126
That's in theory. In practice I doubt they maintain all those artilleries and missile batteries. I bet, when push comes to shove, half of their equipment will not work.

That is probably correct and even half of it working may be a stretch. The North Korean government knows this too and knows that if their feet stomping and temper tantrum doesn't work, they have no recourse other than to bend to the will of the UN or attack SK/Japan and their regime knows it would not survive if they attack.

I think what will likely happen is that NK will eventually grant the UN some concession, the UN will back off, NK will claim victory, and in a few months/years, NK will just violate whatever agreement they made with the UN. That's how they operate.
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,568
3
0
Not very smart.

They have tens of generals who are vying for power internally. I bet most of the crap isn't even from Jong-Un himself, but all the senior officials.

You kill him, they'll just run their code red protocol and unshell everything they have on South Korea. Millions will die.

Never said anything about killing him, I just think we should literally rattle some sabers. :D
 

Yreka

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2005
4,084
0
76
IMO, we just need to cut off all aid to them, sanction anyone who does give them aid, and move a couple of our fleets off the coast and monitor their nuclear sites and the DMZ. I don't believe we should pre-emptively strike them, although it is a fun mental exercise to imagine what NK would do if we undertook a cruise missile and limited air campaign to take out all their artillery and nuclear sites. They would literally have no recourse.

Is this feasible without China on board ? With our country seemingly content on being China's little bitch I'm not so sure.