- Oct 24, 2000
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?Thank you, thank you, Mr. Bush?
- Thread starter GTaudiophile
- Start date
UNCjigga
Lifer
- Dec 12, 2000
- 25,386
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I've been watching EuroNews for awhile. While the elderly man was beating the portrait, he said something that American news didn't translate right away..
"If you only knew. If you only knew what this man has done. He as murdered our children. He has destroyed our sons and daughters..." Apparently he wasn't referring to just murder/executions...but brainwashing/'thought police' as well. Some of the youth won't be able to think for themselves after this war--they don't know anything about history before Saddam Hussein and won't know how to function. Kinda sad...
How does that make anyone right? Do you think the innocent civilian killed in the conflict is happy about the outcome?
I'm glad the Iraqis will soon be freed. I just don't agree with the methods and circumstances.
Other methods and circumstances were tried for 12 years and they did not make the situation any better. This way took one month.
Besides, many more Iraqis benefitted from this than were hurt by this. Any if you looked at one of the other posts lately, you'd see that more Iraqis die due to UN sanctions in a given amount of time than ones killed in the bombing. This war will reduce the amount of Iraqi's dying.
The UN approved the sanctions. Neither the US, nor France, nor Russia, nor China voted against it. It was a UN effort.
UNCjigga
Lifer
- Dec 12, 2000
- 25,386
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I don't know why I put that edit back in my 1st post...big enough to be another post so here goes:
BTW, I'm a liberal, and yes I am glad about what I'm seeing on TV today. But keep in mind the Iraqi people are very good at paying lip service when it is due, and many of them may be celebrating when they see troops because they think this is expected or else they'll be shot (that's how they've been taught to think.) But I don't think you see the point. 90% of the 'leftist liberals' on this forum weren't worried about the war, but rather the aftermath of this war. How will Egypt's government perceive the massive citizen uprising going on in Iraq? Or Iran's government? Or Syria's? They are very much afraid of democracy and they will tighten their grip on their citizens. Then where does it end?
What has Bush done to promote peace in the Middle East? What is he doing about Israel? What is he doing to help Iran reevaluate their policies toward the West? Back to Iraq...why has he excluded international organizations from post-war rebuilding...especially the International War Crimes tribunal? How will he handle the situation with the Kurds in the north and an anxious Turkey? I think he will get through it all relatively well because he's got some great people around him and the administration has already learned some lessons from Afghanistan. But remember he's already failed miserably once...he failed to get UN support for the war. Blame the UN or France/Germany all you want, but in the end it was the administration's tactics between April '02 and December that killed any chance for broad UN coalition support. Now that I think about it, it seems that the Bush Administration didn't want UN help in the first place because they'd have to split the spoils of war.
BTW, I'm a liberal, and yes I am glad about what I'm seeing on TV today. But keep in mind the Iraqi people are very good at paying lip service when it is due, and many of them may be celebrating when they see troops because they think this is expected or else they'll be shot (that's how they've been taught to think.) But I don't think you see the point. 90% of the 'leftist liberals' on this forum weren't worried about the war, but rather the aftermath of this war. How will Egypt's government perceive the massive citizen uprising going on in Iraq? Or Iran's government? Or Syria's? They are very much afraid of democracy and they will tighten their grip on their citizens. Then where does it end?
What has Bush done to promote peace in the Middle East? What is he doing about Israel? What is he doing to help Iran reevaluate their policies toward the West? Back to Iraq...why has he excluded international organizations from post-war rebuilding...especially the International War Crimes tribunal? How will he handle the situation with the Kurds in the north and an anxious Turkey? I think he will get through it all relatively well because he's got some great people around him and the administration has already learned some lessons from Afghanistan. But remember he's already failed miserably once...he failed to get UN support for the war. Blame the UN or France/Germany all you want, but in the end it was the administration's tactics between April '02 and December that killed any chance for broad UN coalition support. Now that I think about it, it seems that the Bush Administration didn't want UN help in the first place because they'd have to split the spoils of war.
He has pressed for the creation of a Palestinian Prime Minister (done) to help create a viable Palestinian state, which he has called for repeatedly. He has publicly rebuked Israel for recent settlements and informed them the lines as originally drawn will be reognized and respected when the nation of Palestine is created.
We may never know why the ruling family of SA suddenly had such a dramatic change of heart, but their recent announcements of the creation of a representative body that will replace them as rulers of the country is hardly coincidental. I would be willing to bet due to their strong connection to 9/11 they were given the same choice as Saddam, albeit privately due to our relationship.
As far as the countries that opposed. You need to understand the money involved here. France and Russia both got oil at a better price than the open market. They were also beneficiaries of Saddam under the food for oil program, about 2 billion a year each from 1996-2000, you will notice their calls for an end to sanctions began at this same time. They were also promised great contracts if they were successfull in having sanctions lifted, the catch was Saddam had to stay in power. This is why they opposed any measure that would have removed him. Iraq's national debt also shows the two largest debtors are France and Russia, to the tune of over 400 billion.
Any interesting question. He is on record as wanting to follow through with the creation of a Palestinian state. I don't have any dog in that particular fight, but if he approaches that question with as much zeal as the Iraqi situation, it will quiet much of the distrust and unrest in the entire ME. I guess we shall see.
No matter what his zeal, I don't know why anyone in the Middle East would trust Bush. Our defense policy lays out our plans to pretty much reshape the political landscape of entire area through whatever means we find convenient.
There are some who will never trust/like whatever him...you see the same thing in this forum. If he makes a real effort towards a PL state, moderate arabs will see that as progress.
The hypocrisy of Republicans really comes through on this issue.
There are probably more true conservatives against this war then there are Liberals. It's just Liberals generally aren't afraid to speak their mind on this matter.
Neo-conservatives don't understand the true essence of true conservatism and liberalism.
There are probably more true conservatives against this war then there are Liberals. It's just Liberals generally aren't afraid to speak their mind on this matter.
Neo-conservatives don't understand the true essence of true conservatism and liberalism.
And then there are those who will not trust him because his stated vision includes changing nearly every Midlle Eastern country.
EXman
Lifer
- Jul 12, 2001
- 20,079
- 15
- 81
even though they look stupid today as Iraqis celebrated... hopefully they will stop pushing a moot point, face reality, and join in support of millions of oppresed Iraqis.
Frankly liberals don't have the Balls to admit when they were wrong. Even though today Saddam's Iraq came symbolically crumbling down today.
Haven't seen former President George H. W. Bush apologizing yet and he is the one that owes the Iraqi people the biggest apology!
If it were about Oil, we could have taken Kuwaits. We had 60,000 guys already there and they have no military!!!!!
Stealing their oil would have been a cakewalk.
Stealing their oil would have been a cakewalk.
How is that?
Do the countries that opposed this war and any effort to remove Saddam owe them an apology for selling them out?
Awww. That is so sweet. Looters are for Bush. I would be too if I was getting away with stealing some one else's stuff thanks to Dubya.
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