Texas Legislature: anti-trans athelete bill implodes against anti-EV bill - both go down in flames

[Zorba]

This thread needs some spice.
There should be no sex or gender based teams in schools.
If women want equality, they gonna get equality.

Give me your weak ass answers why I should change my mind.

Why have age groups either? Make those weak ass 8 year-olds play football against college washouts. Sexing is no different than aging or weighting groupings.

I will say in the vast majority of sports, maybe all, men's should be open to all. If a woman can hang with men, let them.

 

[Zorba]

That actually kind of proves the point. There are 6' 200 lbs cis girls already playing in those sports.
There is already a lot of body type variety in these sports. Trans people hardly change the distribution curve at all.



It sounds like a good idea, but it comes out to exactly the same as 'I think black participation in sports should be a local decision, not a State wide blanket decision.'
The decision ends up being about the prejudice of the people in charge instead of any fair assessment. There might be examples of some trans people that can dominate a sport on a local level, but that is true of cis people as well. When I was in school I played football next to someone that was 6'4 and over 340lbs of pure muscle. 3 years later he was a first round draft pick by the Seattle Seahawks. No one stood a chance against him, he crushed offensive lines.


Your answer is fun. The point of sports is to have fun, and making one team for everyone simply is not fun.

Honestly I think the best solution would be to do away with the gender designations and sort everyone into teams based on skill. Let each school have 2-3 teams and let the coach choose the players for each team based on whatever criteria they see fit. Everyone gets to play with people near their own skill level. But for that to work we would have to remove the ultra-competitiveness of some sports.

Women would be completely pushed out of nearly every sport if that was the case. There is a massive difference in the competitiveness of women and men, not just the difference between A and B teams.

 

[Zorba]

Can anyone cite even a single Trans person who dominates Girls sports? Most States have only a handful of Trans athletes and none of them are some kind of Uber Athlete. Some of them win some local competitions against small groups of Schools, most of them don't even reach State level competitions though, because they are surpassed by others on the way.

There was a wrestler in Texas a few years back that won state. I just went back and read about it, though, he was going ftm and beating the shit out of girls because they wouldn't let him wrestle with the boys.

Transgender Texas wrestler wins second high school girls title

Mack Beggs wants to wrestle boys, but Texas rules won't let him

www.nbcnews.com

 

[woolfe9998]

Do we have a definitive study about the performance of mtf TG's in women's sports? I've heard the assertion made that taking hormones for 6 months will negate any advantage attendant on being born male, but I have yet to see a comprehensive study on mtf athletic performance in comparison to biological females competing in the same events. Not anecdotes. A large sample size. If there is such a study and I'm tragically unaware of it, someone please link it.

This issue should turn on science, not ideology.

 

[ch33zw1z]

There was a wrestler in Texas a few years back that won state. I just went back and read about it, though, he was going ftm and beating the shit out of girls because they wouldn't let him wrestle with the boys.

Transgender Texas wrestler wins second high school girls title

Mack Beggs wants to wrestle boys, but Texas rules won't let him

www.nbcnews.com

Seems like going from F to M, he shoulda been wrestling the boys. Of course, the crowd boo'd and sneered, it's TX.

 

[Zorba]

Yes. For any sport sanctioned by the olympics and its varies National governing bodies.

Thanks for the information. I haven't followed this that closely, but knowing there are good rules in place, I don't really see an issue.

 

[Zorba]

Seems like going from F to M, he shoulda been wrestling the boys. Of course, the crowd boo'd and sneered, it's TX.

Yeah, this is what stupid laws lead to. Instead of boys pretending to be girls, you'll actually get ftm thst will dominate girls.

 

[ondma]

Why wouldn't a tall woman at 300lbs play linemen? You know women have big and tall stores too right?
Wouldn't the 180lb'r stick to quarterback or kicker?

Unless you are talking about soccer.
In that case mr euro, are there fat soccer players?

The smallest NFL player at every position

Including a 5-foot-6 RB and a linebacker who had to eat nonstop in order to make a roster

www.foxsports.com

.

Obviously, you are ignoring the point. In addition to muscle mass, men generally have a larger frame than women, and that wont be changed by hormone replacement "therapy".

 

[ch33zw1z]

Yeah, this is what stupid laws lead to. Instead of boys pretending to be girls, you'll actually get ftm thst will dominate girls.

The guy is taking lose dose testosterone, nothing like a little PED usage to get the edge 😋

I agree, if this guy wants to wrestle other guys, effin let him. It's pretty obviously not a problem. There's gotta be a better way to include modern athletes

 

[SMOGZINN]

Obviously, you are ignoring the point. In addition to muscle mass, men generally have a larger frame than women, and that wont be changed by hormone replacement "therapy".

That is in general, in reality there is a large variety in frame and muscle mass within both sexes. More then enough that a handful of trans people does not change the average distribution. That one larger than average trans girl is probably not even the biggest or strongest person on the team. There certainly are cis girls as large and strong as her.

That is the real point here, the handful of anecdotes about MtF trans people winning at sports does not really tell us anything. Maybe they were just better then the people they were playing? Maybe they were more motivated to win because they had something to prove? The point is that we don't know.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

There was a wrestler in Texas a few years back that won state. I just went back and read about it, though, he was going ftm and beating the shit out of girls because they wouldn't let him wrestle with the boys.

Transgender Texas wrestler wins second high school girls title

Mack Beggs wants to wrestle boys, but Texas rules won't let him

www.nbcnews.com

Exactly what my post #25 is about. No state wide mandate needed or maybe a state wide mandate with appropriate exceptions made on a case by case basis.

 

[ch33zw1z]

That is in general, in reality there is a large variety in frame and muscle mass within both sexes. More then enough that a handful of trans people does not change the average distribution. That one larger than average trans girl is probably not even the biggest or strongest person on the team. There certainly are cis girls as large and strong as her.

That is the real point here, the handful of anecdotes about MtF trans people winning at sports does not really tell us anything. Maybe they were just better then the people they were playing? Maybe they were more motivated to win because they had something to prove? The point is that we don't know.

Somehow you have me quoted, but it was @ondma in post #83. But, it sounded like something I might say, so you had me confused for a few 🤪

 

[SMOGZINN]

Somehow you have me quoted, but it was @ondma in post #83. But, it sounded like something I might say, so you had me confused for a few 🤪

Weird, I think I just hit reply, so I'm not sure how that happened. Anyway I fixed it. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[sandorski]

That is in general, in reality there is a large variety in frame and muscle mass within both sexes. More then enough that a handful of trans people does not change the average distribution. That one larger than average trans girl is probably not even the biggest or strongest person on the team. There certainly are cis girls as large and strong as her.

That is the real point here, the handful of anecdotes about MtF trans people winning at sports does not really tell us anything. Maybe they were just better then the people they were playing? Maybe they were more motivated to win because they had something to prove? The point is that we don't know.

Differences between Boys and Girls mostly begin around the age of 10. Including Skeletal differences. This is why giving Puberty Blockers or HRT for Trans Children is so important, because it makes the Physical Outcome of Transition much closer to the desired result.

 

[ondma]

That is in general, in reality there is a large variety in frame and muscle mass within both sexes. More then enough that a handful of trans people does not change the average distribution. That one larger than average trans girl is probably not even the biggest or strongest person on the team. There certainly are cis girls as large and strong as her.

That is the real point here, the handful of anecdotes about MtF trans people winning at sports does not really tell us anything. Maybe they were just better then the people they were playing? Maybe they were more motivated to win because they had something to prove? The point is that we don't know.

Obviously, there are exceptions. I was speaking in general terms, as we are talking about the general high school population.
I would agree, there probably needs to be a study of as many people as possible to determine whether F to M transgender athletes have an unfair advantage.

 

[nakedfrog]

Obviously, there are exceptions. I was speaking in general terms, as we are talking about the general high school population.
I would agree, there probably needs to be a study of as many people as possible to determine whether F to M transgender athletes have an unfair advantage.

I guess the question is whether there will enough be a large enough sample size to have a meaningful study...

 

[woolfe9998]

Alright, since no one answered my question, I looked around and found this:

Trans women retain athletic edge after a year of hormone therapy, study finds

The findings raise questions about current Olympic guidelines, but the lead author cautions against using them to back bans in recreational and school sports.

www.nbcnews.com

Study of data from military fitness tests with sample of 29 TG males and 46 TG females says that ftm's retain an advantage of 10% in strength, speed and endurance out to one year after start of hormones. At two years, it's roughly equalized.

Study's author recommends that two years of hormones should be required for serious or professional athletic competitions such as the Olympics but doesn't think it's a big deal for say, high school sports.

I'd like to see a study done with a larger sample size but that is at least a start.

 

[woolfe9998]

Obviously, you are ignoring the point. In addition to muscle mass, men generally have a larger frame than women, and that wont be changed by hormone replacement "therapy".

Serious question: what happens when you retain the larger frame and bigger bones but lose muscle mass? Couldn't that negatively affect certain aspects of athletic performance when you have less muscle powering the larger frame?

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Serious question: what happens when you retain the larger frame and bigger bones but lose muscle mass? Couldn't that negatively affect certain aspects of athletic performance when you have less muscle powering the larger frame?

Likely depends on the sport. Off the top of my admittedly poor sports knowledge mind.
Probably bad for gymnastics, probably good for something like basketball or field hockey where size is an important factor.

 

[Brainonska511]

Alright, since no one answered my question, I looked around and found this:

Trans women retain athletic edge after a year of hormone therapy, study finds

The findings raise questions about current Olympic guidelines, but the lead author cautions against using them to back bans in recreational and school sports.

www.nbcnews.com

Study of data from military fitness tests with sample of 29 TG males and 46 TG females says that ftm's retain an advantage of 10% in strength, speed and endurance out to one year after start of hormones. At two years, it's roughly equalized.

Study's author recommends that two years of hormones should be required for serious or professional athletic competitions such as the Olympics but doesn't think it's a big deal for say, high school sports.

I'd like to see a study done with a larger sample size but that is at least a start.

Is that also only applicable for people that transitioned in adulthood? I would imagine if someone starts their transition with hormone therapy prior to puberty or early in puberty, the results may be very different.

 

[darkswordsman17]

One of the more amusing aspects of this is that its led so many white dudes to feeling immasculated to the point they're gobbling down testosterone pills to try and make up for their shortcomings as men, which of course is just further fueling their fear.

At least it would be amusing if it wasn't for the fact lots of these pathetic assholes lash out with violence (especially at trans-people) to compensate further.

 

[pauldun170]

Obviously, you are ignoring the point. In addition to muscle mass, men generally have a larger frame than women, and that wont be changed by hormone replacement "therapy".

Generally men are weak little pansies who can't squat their own body weight or run for more than 30 seconds without keeling over.
Facts

 

[woolfe9998]

Likely depends on the sport. Off the top of my admittedly poor sports knowledge mind.
Probably bad for gymnastics, probably good for something like basketball or field hockey where size is an important factor.

Yes, I think so. Would obviously be an advantage in any sports where size matters, including any contact sport like football. For mainly speed based sport I think propelling high mass with low muscle would be a disadvantage.

 

[sdifox]

No Men have more mass, more muscle and I believe stronger bones (last part could be wrong)
Not super human just bigger.

As I said imagine being a Parent and watching your 123 pound daughter being stomped on by a 195 pound woman who was a boy/man last year. Leave this stuff as local decisions. No one answer will fit every possible scenario.

vs

Someone’s (not the poster) daughter was born with part of a penis but no testicles. Birth certificate said boy because reasons, we started hormone treatments immediately. She is now 5’6” and now weighs 130 pounds. This is totally different than above.

So you would be ok with your 129lbs kid get beat up by a 195 lbs woman as long as she was born as a woman?

 

[Fanatical Meat]

So you would be ok with your 129lbs kid get beat up by a 195 lbs woman as long as she was born as a woman?

at bare minimum it is a lower chance.
195 pounder is likely carrying a lot of fat.