Terms explained: Motion Blur, Ghosting, Refresh Rate, Response Time, Frame Rate...

taltamir

Lifer
Mar 21, 2004
13,576
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Motion blur is a stupid post processing effect found in games.
Also a real life phenomenon that looks nothing like that which is found in games and only occurs when moving very fast and looking nearby: http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2082412
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motion_blur

Ghosting is when you move the screen and text blurs out on an LCD, also any wire mesh pattern would blur together. You see a "ghost image".
Although according to wikipedia motion blur is used interchangeably with ghosting to describe the above-mentioned effect.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghosting

Refresh rate is how many times per second the luminous phosphorous is hit by electronics in a CRT, or UV rays in a plasma display. When the phosphorous is hit it produces visible light in the right color for a moment and then fades away. If the refresh rate is too low, you would be able to make out the flickering of the display.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refresh_rate
There is technically a "refresh rate" for LCDs as well but it is different kind... LCDs are always on so the pixels do not have to be "refreshed" to keep them from flickering. But the image does have to be changed to display new pictures (see frame rate). The LCD's refresh rate is thus its frame rate.

Sub-field drive: Subfield drive is a new fancy name for the refresh rate of a plasma screen; Companies selling plasma screens are now claiming that their high "subfield drive" is the reason you do not get ghosting in plasma; that is a lie.
The extremely high refresh rate of plasma screens is actually the reason they do not visibly flicker as a CRT does, it has absolutely nothing to do with why they do not ghost/motion blur. So when marketing tells you that 600Hz subfield drive is why your plasma doesn't ghost, ignore them.
Also, the refresh rate of plasma has absolutely nothing to do with frame rate, subfield drive is typically 600 Hz, frame rate is typically 60; it simply refreshes the exact same frame 10 times.

Response time is how long it takes each pixel to change from the previous color to the new one. This is a problem that is limited to LCDs. CRTs, plasma, etc all have a response time, its just much better than an LCD to the point where it is not an issue; also for those displays the pixel shows color for a moment when it is hit by electrons or UV, and then it goes dark... so most of the time its black and not displaying any color; LCDs on the other hand have a constant backlight source with a polarized liquid crystal, when the liquid crystal changes it polarization it will display all colors "betwee" the current color and the target color to which it changes to (for a fraction of a second):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Response_time_(technology) EX: the modernest of all LCDs manage 2ms response time... older ones would go over 20ms.

Frame rate (of a display) is how many different pictures your display receives per second. A 60Hz frame rate display (the standard) will display 60 unique pictures per second. Higher refresh rate (such as a plasma screen's 600Hz) would mean that the same picture would be displayed more then once.
All displays have a refresh rate, plasma, CRT, LCD, or any other.
Your computer also outputs a certain frame rate, termed FPS (frames per second). If your combination of game settings, video card, and CPU are able to produce 24 FPS then you are sending the monitor 24 frames per second. Since that is below the 60 it can actually display, then it will simply repeat the same picture more then once. Mismatch between frame sending and frame displaying will cause tearing. This occurs whether your video card is producing more or less FPS than 60.
Also, all the above means that if your monitor only displays 60 frames per second, and your video card is producing 100+, then only 60 of those 100+ unique frames will get displayed, making the rest wasted.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frame_rate
There is a problem with displays called Tearing which is related to framerate, Some claim that higher frame rate solve tearing or that tearing is limited to LCDs and not found in CRTs. Both claims are untrue. Tearing is found in both LCDs and CRTs, and occur whether your FPS exceeds or falls under the framerate of your monitor. There is a solution though, it is called v-sync. V-sync stands for vertical synchronization. It simply means that the video card will synchronize its output with monitor such that the FPS produced by the video card will be capped at the monitor's max (60 FPS), and that they will be synced to be sent over after the monitor finished displaying the current picture but before the next one (so it does not update the monitor's picture to be displayed halfway through the displaying, thus causing tearing)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screen_tearing
 
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NoQuarter

Golden Member
Jan 1, 2001
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Refresh rate is a poorly adapted term from CRT's, but imo it's acceptable to use it with the understanding that it represents how often the pixels are updated (60hz = 60 times per second). Response time is how quickly the pixels adapt to the update.

Motion blur and ghosting are interchangeable terms when talking about display panels (rather than cinematic effects). If you read the wikipedia page you linked for Ghosting it links to motion blur:
"Ghosting may refer to: motion blur, "ghosting" is a term often used when slow response time digital televisions or digital monitors have motion blur during fast motion."

But you're also mixing together response time with refresh rate intervals when trying to break down sub-field division (which I don't know much about either, but I don't think it's newly-minted). If plasma TV's run at true 600Hz the refresh rate would be 1.67ms intervals and because phosphors have near instant response time I'll say 0ms response time. A 60Hz LCD would update at 16.7ms intervals with a 2ms response time (2ms to complete the color change after the update). Refresh rate and response time aren't directly related it's just the response time follows the refresh.

It is the response time that affects ghosting but I think the faster refresh rate in 120hz LCD's would still help reduce the apparent ghosting by updating the pixels more often to get to the new color before you can notice it hanging around as the old color.
 
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OCGuy

Lifer
Jul 12, 2000
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Maximum PC had a good article on LCDs this month, debunking much of the marketing crap that has taken over.

I read it on the john, as i'm sure you were wondering.
 

taltamir

Lifer
Mar 21, 2004
13,576
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you dont have to exceed your monitors refresh rate to get tearing.

I didn't say you did... maybe I should clarify that.
I meant to say that getting 200Hz on a 60Hz monitor is not a cure for tearing, a lot of people have told me it is.
Only v-sync cures tearing.
 
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toyota

Lifer
Apr 15, 2001
12,957
1
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I didn't say you did... maybe I should clarify that.
I meant to say that getting 200Hz on a 60Hz monitor is not a cure for tearing, a lot of people have told me it is.
Only v-sync cures tearing.
well now the way you are wording it sounds even worse. "And you will get tearing even if you exceed 60Hz" you make it sound like the higher the framerate the less tearing you would expect to receive when the opposite is true. I was just saying that you can experience tearing even at a low framerate but again the higher the framerate then the more tearing that will occur. and yes the only remedy is vsync.
 
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blanketyblank

Golden Member
Jan 23, 2007
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I'm not sure about your definition of sub-field drive since as you say you're not basing it off wikipedia but more off assumptions from common understanding of the terms. I agree it's marketing drivel and just thrown around so they can show off the big number in comparison with the 120 and 240 Hz seen commonly now. However I think it actually refers to something different in reality and from what I've seen on avs forum has something to do with splitting processing up into regions or something on the set.
 

taltamir

Lifer
Mar 21, 2004
13,576
6
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I'm not sure about your definition of sub-field drive since as you say you're not basing it off wikipedia but more off assumptions from common understanding of the terms. I agree it's marketing drivel and just thrown around so they can show off the big number in comparison with the 120 and 240 Hz seen commonly now. However I think it actually refers to something different in reality and from what I've seen on avs forum has something to do with splitting processing up into regions or something on the set.

Well, I am basing it off of my deductions of what they mean by it... its not just marketing drivel, its marketing drivel for which I have not managed to find any concrete definition... They claim it eliminates ghosting/motion blur. So the only thing it COULD be is response time; expressed as a unit of frequency (Hz) instead of as a period (T)... f = 1/T. If someone can find and link an explanation from one of those companies as to what they mean by it I would appreciate it, then we could create a wikipedia page explaining it. (will not be the first time I make one based off of info gleaned in tech forums; wikipedia tends to be behind on such things)

well now the way you are wording it sounds even worse. "And you will get tearing even if you exceed 60Hz" you make it sound like the higher the framerate the less tearing you would expect to receive when the opposite is true. I was just saying that you can experience tearing even at a low framerate but again the higher the framerate then the more tearing that will occur. and yes the only remedy is vsync.

Well yes, that is what I was saying... I tried rewriting it, is it clearer now?
 
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blanketyblank

Golden Member
Jan 23, 2007
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Well, I am basing it off of my deductions of what they mean by it... its not just marketing drivel, its marketing drivel for which I have not managed to find any concrete definition... They claim it eliminates ghosting/motion blur. So the only thing it COULD be is response time; expressed as a unit of frequency (Hz) instead of as a period (T)... f = 1/T. If someone can find and link an explanation from one of those companies as to what they mean by it I would appreciate it, then we could create a wikipedia page explaining it. (will not be the first time I make one based off of info gleaned in tech forums; wikipedia tends to be behind on such things)



Well yes, that is what I was saying... I tried rewriting it, is it clearer now?

Here you go.
https://panasonic.ca/English/audiovideo/plasma/viera2.asp

First part makes sense that plasma is better at motion than LCD, but rest is greek to me.
Something about dividing stuff up into 8 subfields and refreshing pixels 480 times per second, but I don't really get why that's good or unique beyond other plasmas. That and I have no idea why 600 Hz would better except each pixel flashes 120 times more.
 

BFG10K

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
22,709
3,000
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I meant to say that getting 200Hz on a 60Hz monitor is not a cure for tearing, a lot of people have told me it is.
I’m not sure who said that given it’s not true. But the opposite is.

The higher the refresh rate of the display, the more likely you’ll have a refresh cycle starting when it’s needed, so the less likely you’ll see tearing.

Given the same framerate, a 120 Hz LCD will tear less on average than a 60 Hz LCD.
 

taltamir

Lifer
Mar 21, 2004
13,576
6
76
Here you go.
https://panasonic.ca/English/audiovideo/plasma/viera2.asp

First part makes sense that plasma is better at motion than LCD, but rest is greek to me.
Something about dividing stuff up into 8 subfields and refreshing pixels 480 times per second, but I don't really get why that's good or unique beyond other plasmas. That and I have no idea why 600 Hz would better except each pixel flashes 120 times more.

Thank you, that link helped a lot, I did some more reading about plasma; along with that link I figured it out... plasma works by exciting phospherous, similar to what a CRT does (except a CRT uses electrons and plasma uses UV rays to excite them)
What this means is that the subfield drive is basically the plasmas Refresh rate, LCDs do not even HAVE a refresh rate because they are always on, there is no need to refresh.
A plasma having a refresh rate of 600Hz means it does not appear to flicker like an a CRT would.

What does that have to do with no ghosting? Absolutely NOTHING. thats right, the take a feature that makes the plasma not flicker and they claim it prevents it from ghosting, even though the two are completely unrelated. (the reason there is no ghosting is because the response time of phosphorous is much higher then a liquid crystal)