temash and kabini from an oem POV?

[monstercameron]

we all see the 11.6" asus notebooks with snb and ivb 13s around on sale but a few questions come to mind.

ulv snb and ivb i3s are expensive, what kinda margins are they making selling it for $329-399? unless they are just clearing out inventory for haswell then they must be at best, at cost or at worst a loss.

beyond the x202e and d200e, the next models up are over $400(on newegg) and the celeron systems are 17W, slower, use more power and are more expensive than the a6-1450, isn't this great value for both consumers and oems. they can have lower prices than i3 setups yet have better power consumption(cheaper/smaller batteries) while having performance of the the celeron/pentiums. Not to mentions more features, dx11, OCL, VCE, UVD, AVX and virtualization(not very useful but its there.)

In the end, do consumers, ei the ones who dont read biased forums, really care what processor is in the system? and if this is the case then wont amd ulv apus make more sense for ultraportables?

 

[SiliconWars]

Most consumers haven't got a clue about what PC parts they have and wouldn't be able to tell the difference between an ULV Ivy or Kabini. Most experts doing a blind test wouldn't know the difference either.

OEM's know this - they don't care about Cinebench or x264 on low end notebooks - it's all about getting good enough performance with good battery life at the lowest price they can. It's what made Bobcat successful and it's why Kabini/Temash will also be a success. AMD is making a little bit more on them but that's all they can do in their situation - increase the ASP's a bit, increase die sizes/core counts to stay relevant in performance and just try to hang on.

 

[Net Prowler]

^ sad but true

 

[mavere]

The name Intel still has an amazingly massive pull in the non-tech crowd.

My mom, for example, might want good "value" when she buys a netbook or cheap laptop, but she doesn't want what she thinks is trash.

Anyone with more willingness to dispense some income would just get a tablet for email+social networks+videos and then use an Intel ULV portable for 'real' work. (Or just focus solely on the latter)

Anyone with an inclination towards performance numbers on a spreadsheet would get a very high end, no compromise notebook or settle for a high-wattage, high-performance heavy clunker.

 

[Cerb]

In the end, do consumers, ei the ones who dont read biased forums, really care what processor is in the system? and if this is the case then wont amd ulv apus make more sense for ultraportables?

I do read these forums, and currently run a Core Duo 1.8GHz + Radeon X-series, usually with both forced to lowest speeds (it won't overheat, but it can get loud and uncomfortably warm, to no benefit that I can figure out). Software 1080P is basically all it can't do well that I'd like, and that would not be a problem with new hardware. That's including custom-compiling kernels and esoteric packages not in repos. The form factor keeps me slow enough that I can't bring myself to care, once above the performance of in-order Atoms.

Take those CPU savings, and put them towards a quality keyboard (I'm not a fan of the new Thinkpad keyboards, but they're still better than >95% of them), good display, and quality casing. Personally, I'm far more concerned about those aspects, and battery (I hate that they make them smaller by making 6-cell non-standard, FI), than performance, as long as it doesn't have that laggy sucktitude of the in-order Atoms (or worse, a a PowerVR GPU).

I don't want to have to pay for a fancy fast Intel CPU, just to get other nice features, or get stuck with a power hog of a CPU+chipset. Even without restrictions on implementation, Bobcat suffered from that thinking by OEMs, IMV--cheap crap, mostly, rather then slower cheaper good machines, because of course everybody cares about CPU performance, if they want a monitor with decent viewing angle, or a case of real internal structure, or good keyboard, or whatever else. There were some OK options last-gen, but I opted for a beat-up used notebook, instead, because what there was wasn't compelling enough for several times the cost.

 

[podspi]

I do read these forums, and currently run a Core Duo 1.8GHz + Radeon X-series, usually with both forced to lowest speeds (it won't overheat, but it can get loud and uncomfortably warm, to no benefit that I can figure out). Software 1080P is basically all it can't do well that I'd like, and that would not be a problem with new hardware. That's including custom-compiling kernels and esoteric packages not in repos. The form factor keeps me slow enough that I can't bring myself to care, once above the performance of in-order Atoms.

Take those CPU savings, and put them towards a quality keyboard (I'm not a fan of the new Thinkpad keyboards, but they're still better than >95% of them), good display, and quality casing. Personally, I'm far more concerned about those aspects, and battery (I hate that they make them smaller by making 6-cell non-standard, FI), than performance, as long as it doesn't have that laggy sucktitude of the in-order Atoms (or worse, a a PowerVR GPU).

I don't want to have to pay for a fancy fast Intel CPU, just to get other nice features, or get stuck with a power hog of a CPU+chipset. Even without restrictions on implementation, Bobcat suffered from that thinking by OEMs, IMV--cheap crap, mostly, rather then slower cheaper good machines, because of course everybody cares about CPU performance, if they want a monitor with decent viewing angle, or a case of real internal structure, or good keyboard, or whatever else. There were some OK options last-gen, but I opted for a beat-up used notebook, instead, because what there was wasn't compelling enough for several times the cost.

Few things:

1) I too am saddened by what they are calling Thinkpad keyboards these days (even though they are still better than most of the junk released today).

2) Assuming HP makes it (I imagine they will), you might want to check out the Kabini-updated DM1. I had a Bobcat based one and it was pretty awesome. Overall I would say I was happier with it than the 500t that replaced it (although obviously they are very different machines with very different capabilities).

 

[frozentundra123456]

Few things:

1) I too am saddened by what they are calling Thinkpad keyboards these days (even though they are still better than most of the junk released today).

2) Assuming HP makes it (I imagine they will), you might want to check out the Kabini-updated DM1. I had a Bobcat based one and it was pretty awesome. Overall I would say I was happier with it than the 500t that replaced it (although obviously they are very different machines with very different capabilities).

When it first came out, I really liked the DM1, but I looked at it a couple of years later, and it just didnt look attractive quality wise. For over 400 dollars, I just thought it looked too plain.

 

[strata8]

The top end Kabini (2Ghz, 4 cores, 25W) sounds like it could be a very appealing AIO, 13-15" laptop, and mini PC part.

 

[Exophase]

No reason to assume the Temash and Kabini die will be significantly less expensive to manufacture than dual-core IB dies. The dual core die with HD 4000 is only slightly larger (118mm^2 vs 110mm^2). The dual core die with HD 2500 is smaller. Wafers made on Intel's 22nm process may be more expensive than those made on TSMC's 28nm, but then you have to consider that there's no extra overhead for paying TSMC.

I don't think counting revenue on an individual model basis makes much sense anyway. It really depends on the ASP for that die over all of its bins. The lower end/cheaper bins will enable higher end bins which will affect total profit. The low to middle end parts Intel sells as Celeron, Pentium, or even some i3s are balanced out by the more expensive i5s and i7s (yes there are some dual core CPUs with i7 branding)

 

[NTMBK]

No reason to assume the Temash and Kabini die will be significantly less expensive to manufacture than dual-core IB dies. The dual core die with HD 4000 is only slightly larger (118mm^2 vs 110mm^2). The dual core die with HD 2500 is smaller. Wafers made on Intel's 22nm process may be more expensive than those made on TSMC's 28nm, but then you have to consider that there's no extra overhead for paying TSMC.

I don't think counting revenue on an individual model basis makes much sense anyway. It really depends on the ASP for that die over all of its bins. The lower end/cheaper bins will enable higher end bins which will affect total profit. The low to middle end parts Intel sells as Celeron, Pentium, or even some i3s are balanced out by the more expensive i5s and i7s (yes there are some dual core CPUs with i7 branding)

Given that AMD is currently selling an A10 for the price of an i3, despite it having a considerably larger die, I think we can safely say that a) they will eat smaller margins in order to make a sale and b) they could really do with some parts with better margins. Kabini should be good for them, like Bobcat was before.

It's actually not a bad bit of positioning for them. They're straddling the gap between Atom and Haswell. Intel's ULVs carry a price premium, due to the heavy binning required to create them, but their Atom isn't (yet) pushing up into the laptop region of performance. Kabini slots in nicely for "craptops".

 

[lefty2]

Kabini will certainly help gain marketshare in the netbook market. Unfortunately, the netbook market is shrinking and being replaced by tablets - mainly by android and iPad. Unfortunately for AMD the Windows tablet market is still tiny.

 

[frozentundra123456]

Kabini will certainly help gain marketshare in the netbook market. Unfortunately, the netbook market is shrinking and being replaced by tablets - mainly by android and iPad. Unfortunately for AMD the Windows tablet market is still tiny.

;

I see that as a serious problem for both amd and Intel. Both are late to the game with competitive hardware. Personally, I really dislike android, but it has become very popular in both phones and tablets.
Even more so for iOS.

People may not see any compelling reason to move to windows, although I have an android tablet and personally will never buy another.

 

[sm625]

Most experts doing a blind test wouldn't know the difference either.

I would have to disagree. All you have to do is open a web browser to see the difference between a small 2 issue kabini and a big ivy bridge. One would take a full second longer than the other. Many web pages would take a noticeably longer time to load.

 

[NTMBK]

I would have to disagree. All you have to do is open a web browser to see the difference between a small 2 issue kabini and a big ivy bridge. One would take a full second longer than the other. Many web pages would take a noticeably longer time to load.

I browse the web on my C60 laptop, and performance really isn't noticeable. The only place it falls down is HD video which doesn't have hardware acceleration (I'm looking at you Netflix).

An SSD would make a far more noticeable difference.

 

[Vesku]

I would have to disagree. All you have to do is open a web browser to see the difference between a small 2 issue kabini and a big ivy bridge. One would take a full second longer than the other. Many web pages would take a noticeably longer time to load.

I thought the same thing until I tried out a friends C-60 netbook. Basically same experience as NTMBK. Was actually fine for browsing and light office type stuff but did choke up on un-accelerated video.

 

[strata8]

I thought the same thing until I tried out a friends C-60 netbook. Basically same experience as NTMBK. Was actually fine for browsing and light office type stuff but did choke up on un-accelerated video.

Every time my E-350 laptop freezes I put my ear to the casing, and sure enough, that little prick of a hard drive is spinning away like mad. HDDs continue to bottleneck computers everywhere.

 

[monstercameron]

I thought the same thing until I tried out a friends C-60 netbook. Basically same experience as NTMBK. Was actually fine for browsing and light office type stuff but did choke up on un-accelerated video.

You guys are doing it wrong...Netflix via silver light is too intensive for the c-series in HD and in SD it loses sync too often. What you need to do is use the windows 8 Netflix metro app, works like a charm. Also for 1080 flash video from YouTube, you have to use internet explorer, there seems to be a bug in flash on chrome and Firefox.

 

[NTMBK]

You guys are doing it wrong...Netflix via silver light is too intensive for the c-series in HD and in SD it loses sync too often. What you need to do is use the windows 8 Netflix metro app, works like a charm. Also for 1080 flash video from YouTube, you have to use internet explorer, there seems to be a bug in flash on chrome and Firefox.

Netbook has a 1024x600 screen, so Win8 is a no-go sadly!

 

[monstercameron]

Netbook has a 1024x600 screen, so Win8 is a no-go sadly!

HDMI? Also you can do some hacks to scale a higher resolution in your graphics settings... In did it to my 720p screen, some of it was off screen but metro apps worked...

 

[Cerb]

Netbook has a 1024x600 screen, so Win8 is a no-go sadly!

Sadly? With Home not offering downgrade rights, that wouldn't be a bad thing at all.