Tell me why I would want to live in Utah

[Ns1]

evidently very common:

http://www.city-data.com/forum/utah/172512-non-lds-children-being-left-out.html

 

[Cogman]

That's complete BS. I siding with Boomer here. SLC is the center of the mormon cult. you are either with them or an outsider. They tolerate outsiders, but are not friendly towards them. Unless you have lived in other parts of the country, you wont understand the difference between that though.

I would agree. I'm LDS myself and I see a fair amount of the isolationism. Most community events revolve around church, this can make it really hard for someone to really fit in.

That isn't to say that I believe ALL mormons only tolerate outsiders, but rather that there is a lot of self righteous assholery that goes on which can skew an outsiders perspective.

 

[Cogman]

I absolutely 100% cannot believe anything you say after this. I have had half a dozen jobs in the salt lake city area and have never once been asked any such question. You work construction right? 3 of my brothers work construction in SLC and they have NEVER lost job opportunities for not being mormon. Neither has their dozens of co workers.

Depends on when he started working there. SLC saw a pretty big boom in non-mormons during the 80's. I could EASILY see situations like this arrising during that time period and well into the 90's.

Now, it certainly isn't that bad.. but I could certainly see it happening.

 

[BoomerD]

evidently very common:

http://www.city-data.com/forum/utah/172512-non-lds-children-being-left-out.html

Yep...

http://mormonmatters.org/2009/09/12/the-surprising-truth-about-mormon-employment-discrimination/

 

[BoomerD]

Depends on when he started working there. SLC saw a pretty big boom in non-mormons during the 80's. I could EASILY see situations like this arrising during that time period and well into the 90's.

Now, it certainly isn't that bad.. but I could certainly see it happening.

We were there in the early 80's. It MAY have gotten better since then...My dad warned me that it wasn't uncommon. When he retired in the late 60's, he encountered quite a bit of "non-mormon" hostility from the Saints.

 

[alfa147x]

evidently very common:

http://www.city-data.com/forum/utah/172512-non-lds-children-being-left-out.html

wtf

 

[Cogman]

We were there in the early 80's. It MAY have gotten better since then...My dad warned me that it wasn't uncommon. When he retired in the late 60's, he encountered quite a bit of "non-mormon" hostility from the Saints.

I could see it.

A big part of the problem is the fact that up until about the 80's, Utah mormons were pretty much left alone. Most of them would only ever be exposed to outside opinions through a brief 2 year mission (and this was generally just a small portion of the males.) The last time they seriously interacted with "non-mormons" as a whole was in the 1840's after they were pretty much kicked out of homes. A couple of generations, alone, and with your last mass interaction with non-mormons being "The bad non-mormons forced us from our homes, raped our women and murdered our leaders." tends to really skew a societies behaviors.

With the expansion of the internet and media in general, mormons have gotten better about realizing that "yes, people that aren't mormon can be good people too". However, there is still a fair amount of self righteous behaviors which is utterly shameful.

 

[BoomerD]

I could see it.

A big part of the problem is the fact that up until about the 80's, Utah mormons were pretty much left alone. Most of them would only ever be exposed to outside opinions through a brief 2 year mission (and this was generally just a small portion of the males.) The last time they seriously interacted with "non-mormons" as a whole was in the 1840's after they were pretty much kicked out of homes. A couple of generations, alone, and with your last mass interaction with non-mormons being "The bad non-mormons forced us from our homes, raped our women and murdered our leaders." tends to really skew a societies behaviors.

With the expansion of the internet and media in general, mormons have gotten better about realizing that "yes, people that aren't mormon can be good people too". However, there is still a fair amount of self righteous behaviors which is utterly shameful.

I think you have that backwards...Mormons have never really accepted "non-members."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Meadows_massacre

 

[jhansman]

I can tell you why I want to go back to Utah: Arches Nat'l Park and Grand Staircase/Escalante. Some of the best country to be seen in the U.S. Now, I know it gets hot, and you can't spend all your time in such places, but if you like the southwest, it doesn't get much better.

Oh, and forget the Mormons.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

I lived in Salt Lake City. It's clean, has cheap food and cheap clothing. There's lots of good scenery as many women wear skirts and dresses. The streets roll up about 8 pm.

The only venue in town that hosts large bands and events is the civic center which absolutely refuses to let anything go later than 12 midnight. You see it's owned by the church and they cut power to the building except for exit lights at 12. It's on a timer.

There is no cold beer in the state as as liquor is sold at State liquor stores. But, it's alright because all the beer is 3.2 % anyways. It's perfectly normal in a frightening kind of way.

Large families are encouraged and you quickly learn that there is nowhere else on the planet that these families could survive because the church controls housing, food stores and clothing stores. There's always been fears about big government. People in SLC aren't bothered because they've always had "big church." People are nice as long as you NEVER question the religion or policies of the church.

 

[Cogman]

I think you have that backwards...Mormons have never really accepted "non-members."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Meadows_massacre

The Mountain meadows massacre happened AFTER they where pretty forcibly kicked out. I know the order of events pretty well.

From your own link

In addition, during the prior decades, the religion had undergone a period of intense persecution in the American Midwest, and faithful Mormons moved west to escape persecution in midwestern towns. In particular, they were officially expelled from the state of Missouri during the 1838 Mormon War, during which prominent Mormon apostle David W. Patten was killed in battle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haun's_Mill_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...rmon_War_in_Illinois.22_and_the_Mormon_Exodus

 

[BoomerD]

The Mountain meadows massacre happened AFTER they where pretty forcibly kicked out. I know the order of events pretty well.

From your own link


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haun's_Mill_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...rmon_War_in_Illinois.22_and_the_Mormon_Exodus

Lies!! Lies, I tell ya!

In spite of my "anti-Mormon ranting," some of the best people I ever met were GOOD Mormons...folks who actually lived what they claimed to believe...unlike the average Jack Mormon who was likely to be as "sinful" as any non-mormon...

Why do you never take one Mormon fishing?

Because he'll drink all your beer.

ALWAYS take TWO Mormons fishing...they'll both be afraid the other will tell on them...and leave your beer alone.

 

[ThatsABigOne]

Saying 'Hello' from Park City, Utah. I love it here. I commute everyday to SLC, which is a 40 min drive.

I am a non mormon, I do fit in Park City very easily. There is some feeling of isolationism with local communities, but I am sure you could find places to do with the family.

Very good places to pick from would be Park City, Draper, Moab, and Wendover.

 

[Cogman]

Lies!! Lies, I tell ya!

In spite of my "anti-Mormon ranting," some of the best people I ever met were GOOD Mormons...folks who actually lived what they claimed to believe...unlike the average Jack Mormon who was likely to be as "sinful" as any non-mormon...

Why do you never take one Mormon fishing?

Because he'll drink all your beer.

ALWAYS take TWO Mormons fishing...they'll both be afraid the other will tell on them...and leave your beer alone.

. The reason I'm supporting your claims is because I have witnessed, first hand, how stupid and pompous mormons can be (even though I am one). One of my best friends from high school and his family were not mormons. When they first moved into our home town, they were greeted by a well meaning, but crazy, member. She was friends with them, talked with them, and invited them over for dinners, etc. After one of these dinners, the family made it clear that they had no intention of joining the church, ever. After that, the crazy lady pretty much cut all contact with them.

Yet, when some member sees someone point out the members like this, they WAY to often go into stupid defense/denial mode "We don't do that! We aren't like that!" instead of taking the right approach of saying "Hmm, maybe we are like this, how do we change?".


That being said, I've derailed the thread too much... Like I said, If you are looking for city living, There are better cities out there. I'm currently loving my stay in the suburbs of Dallas. However, if you are looking for a more rural experience, rural utah isn't bad (though, I prefer the nomans land of Rural Idaho myself).

As for jobs. SLC has seen a pretty big boom in the tech industry recently. Dallas has also seen a similar boom.

 

[GTaudiophile]

PROs
Variety of scenery: 30 mins to ski slopes; a few hours to red rocks
Relatively inexpensive cost of living
Very nice, kind, educated people
Home to the best Mexican restaurant in the USA: The Red Iguana

Neutral?
Nearly the reddest state in the Union aside from the "blue" progressive set of non-Mormons that live in downtown SLC.

CONs
The Mormon-Effect: You're either one or you're not. If you're not, you're not really "in" and this can be troublesome in some companies with a strong Mormon background/employee base.
The non-Mormons are "out" and this remaining and relatively small group can be somewhat incestuous; everyone knows everyone.
Mormons are very nice people and make for great neighbors, but if you're not "in" you will only be able to get so close, so high, etc.


Note: My GF lived in SLC for a decade, and I visited her there many times.

 

[Ns1]

and in this thread I learned that I will never move to Utah

 

[AreaCode707]

Yet, when some member sees someone point out the members like this, they WAY to often go into stupid defense/denial mode "We don't do that! We aren't like that!" instead of taking the right approach of saying "Hmm, maybe we are like this, how do we change?".

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

Anyone willing to critically and honestly evaluate their way of life, their cultural background and their culture's deficiencies earns my respect. Especially if you can hold onto your culture and work for change rather than step away from your culture when the light of day shines on the darker parts of it. Good for you for calling it as you see it.

 

[Eos]

Silly street names: W 1820 S. Is it west or south? Oh, it's both. Then name it SW 1820! rawr!

I drove through Layton a lot (every time I went east or west) when I drove for May Trucking. I saw a billboard once on the side of I-84/15 advertising suits. Guy in a suit, puppy tugging on his pant leg. Tag line: "Missionary Tested". :biggrin:

 

[Kanalua]

Mormon and a BYU Grad. I lived in Provo/Orem (worst parts of Utah) for 8 years. Decided to go to Law School in Hawaii (where I grew up) and never looked back.

Utah is actually a lot like anywhere else to live. It's all about where you live and who you know. It's relatively cheap (especially compared to Hawaii). But...it's Utah, not Hawaii.

That said...I would never live in Utah, again.

 

[BoomerD]

Silly street names: W 1820 S. Is it west or south? Oh, it's both. Then name it SW 1820! rawr!

I drove through Layton a lot (every time I went east or west) when I drove for May Trucking. I saw a billboard once on the side of I-84/15 advertising suits. Guy in a suit, puppy tugging on his pant leg. Tag line: "Missionary Tested". :biggrin:

I helped build the May lot in Clearfield (or was it west Layton) in the early 80's. Not sure if it's still in the same place or not...looking at Google Maps, I suspect they've moved since then...or it may just be that in 30 years...I've forgotten exactly where it was.

 

[Eos]

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=layto...68&sspn=56.987104,113.466797&vpsrc=6&t=h&z=19

 

[Eos]

Did a 36 hour reset there once. Boring.

If you zoom in close enough, you'll also see a "pickup truck set of doubles". Travel trailer plus waverunner behind a pickup. Very few states allow that kind of madness!

 

[kami333]

My gf and I joke that there are 2 religions in Utah, LDS and outdoors. Anything else and you have a hard time fitting in.

I grew up in SLC in the 80/90s, visited frequently through the mid-2000s (lived in New England and the East coast), then lived there again for 4years until I moved to the mid-West last year. Like cogman has mentioned, it has changed a lot since the 80s; in SLC the change was even bigger before and after the Olympics.

A lot of the crazy liquor laws are gone; no more "private" clubs, no more side cars, and they've been talking about loosening up the liquor zoning restrictions as well. You can buy cold beer at the supermarket, it's 3.2% ABW (~4% ABV so it's pretty normal coors/bud/Heineken), for anything stronger than that you have to go to a liquor store or a beer store.

As far as the general attitudes, if you stay downtown and close to the University of Utah things are relatively normal. I've always made it a point to live North of I-80 and East of I-15 where the LDS population is low, inside the belt loop (I-215) isn't bad either. It's when you start going out to Sandy or Draper that you start seeing the 99% LDS neighborhoods, or go towards West Valley City and you'll think you are in Mexico (think Tijuana, not the good kind). Outside of SLC, St George and Cedar City aren't bad either.

Crime-wise it's like any major city, don't be stupid at night and lock up your stuff. I think some of it is exaggerated since there's a fair amount of very sheltered Mormons who think anything alternative = dangerous; for example there's a popular pizza hangout near the University and I've worked with people who thought it was in the ghetto because there was graffiti on the wall and they served beer.

 

[BoomerD]

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=layto...68&sspn=56.987104,113.466797&vpsrc=6&t=h&z=19

Yeah, I saw that. I'm still not sure if that's the same place I helped build or not. MIGHT be...it's been almost 30 years. for some reason, I seemed to remember it being in Clearfield or maybe Roy...but...?

 

[Bignate603]

This is ATOT and nobody has mentioned their gun laws? They've got some of the least restrictive in the country.

Also, the people I've met that are most critical of the Utah Mormons tend to be Mormons from other parts of the country. It's pretty obvious that even members of their own church think that some of the members in Utah are insulated from the rest of the world. As a result, some can be pretty backwards when it comes to dealing with non-members.