Teflon flu

[Throckmorton]

Last night out of nowhere I got a warmish feeling I usually get from dehydration or being hung over. A little while later I realized that I had left a pot on the stove for a couple hours, and the teflon coating burned. Knowing teflon releases toxic stuff I opened the windows and turned on the exhaust fan.

Then I googled and found this article: http://www.tuberose.com/Teflon.html
Apparently there is something called teflon flu, flu-like symptoms caused by exposure to the chemicals released from polymers.
The part about HFP causing short term memory loss and motor skill degradation scared me so I added some more ventilation by putting a fan in my bedroom window to blow fresh air in.

So far so good I guess. But this morning I got curious and opened the lid and picked up the pot to look at the burned teflon and got a whiff of burning smell. I had assumed it was OK since all the volatiles would be burned off.

But then I looked at the article again and realized that the ultrafine particles (smoke?) are lethal to mice because the volatile chemicals apparently adsorb into them. This article confirms http://www.fluoridealert.org/pesticides/teflon.polymer.fume.fever.htm.

464°F - Ultrafine particulate matter: Teflon produces very small (ultrafine) particles which are very toxic, causing extreme lung damage to rats within 10 minutes of exposure. Longer exposures cause death. At higher temperatures, Teflon also produces toxic gases. Some scientists have found that the particles and gases together are responsible for Teflon's toxicity, perhaps because the gases adsorb to the particles, which because of their small size can lodge deep in the lower respiratory tract.


DOH. Did I breathe in the stuff that kills mice? Did I do any permanent damage to myself? Or just respiratory irritation and a small increase in cancer risk?

And why is teflon considered safe for cookware? DuPont says it's safe when used properly, but leaving a pot on the stove to burn is a common occurrence. The temperatures listed in those articles are reached during normal frying too.

 

[Throckmorton]

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-are-the-risks-of-using-teflon-pans.htm

Studies regarding the safety of Teflon® pans and other non-stick cookware continues. The EPA deems PFOA products safe for use pending more studies. DuPont admits Teflon® pans can release toxic PFOA fumes, but insists this only occurs if the pans are overheated, which it characterizes as abusive use of the cookware. DuPont’s stance is that by the time Teflon® pans release toxic PFOA fumes, food would already be burnt and inedible.

DuPont's stance is "Why would you burn your teflon? The food would be unedible if you did that!"

 

[PsiStar]

Yes. I stopped using teflon long ago & started using spray on no stick, olive oil based. Even just extra virgin olive oil is just fine and healthful.:thumbsup:


I got the idea back when I was single the 1st time. In my most efficient AND el-cheepo mode of getting out the door in the AM & had a plan for lunch back in the apt., I put a couple of eggs on a low heat so they would be boiling when I got out of the shower & could finish off while I ate breakfast. NOT! Forgot all about the eggs until I was headed back from work at lunch time. :'(

whooowee Did that whole side of the apartment building stink or what when I came in the main entrance. Bits of eggs were on ceiling & pot was glowing red with some residue of teflon. At least I had an apartment with windows on the front & rear as did everyone else.

Never did that again & no more teflon. Glad I didn't kill anyone.

 

[Mr. Pedantic]

leaving a pot on the stove to burn is a common occurrence.

???

The temperatures listed in those articles are reached during normal frying too.

To be honest, I've never heard of a teflon-coated frying pan actually used for frying. What's the point of the teflon if you're just going to dump all this oil in and fry it anyway?

DuPont's stance is "Why would you burn your teflon? The food would be unedible if you did that!"

No shit. That's like saying that AMD and NVIDIA should honour your warranty if you got a 6990/590, took off the fan, and then looped Furmark until it died.

 

[drizek]

I burned a teflon pot while trying to make popcorn once. It was terrible, though I neer threw it away since it was pretty expensive and I wasn't sure if it was OK to use it again or not.

I guess its time to dump it?

 

[Throckmorton]

???


To be honest, I've never heard of a teflon-coated frying pan actually used for frying. What's the point of the teflon if you're just going to dump all this oil in and fry it anyway?


No shit. That's like saying that AMD and NVIDIA should honour your warranty if you got a 6990/590, took off the fan, and then looped Furmark until it died.

You've never heard of frying in a frying pan? I'm talking abou pan frying not boiling in oil.

The problem is they and the government consider teflon safe, even though it releases toxic compounds under normal household conditions.

 

[wuliheron]

Teflon's been around forever and if the studies are not yet conclusive that's a good sign of how safe it is. Volatile Organic Compounds and fine particles from vehicle exhaust and even gas fumes are proven hazards people live with everyday. Common PVC pipe used in plumbing can be deadly if it catches fire. Anyway, I wouldn't worry too much about a frying pan and would just avoid sniffing any tailpipes, playing with solvents, etc. for awhile. Give your body a little time to deal with it already has before insulting it any more.

 

[Throckmorton]

Teflon's been around forever and if the studies are not yet conclusive that's a good sign of how safe it is. Volatile Organic Compounds and fine particles from vehicle exhaust and even gas fumes are proven hazards people live with everyday. Common PVC pipe used in plumbing can be deadly if it catches fire. Anyway, I wouldn't worry too much about a frying pan and would just avoid sniffing any tailpipes, playing with solvents, etc. for awhile. Give your body a little time to deal with it already has before insulting it any more.

But how do the VOCs from paint, exhaust gases, etc compare to the stuff that gets released from Teflon? There is some nasty stuff that gets off-gassed. But none of those articles says anything about the amounts.

 

[Mr. Pedantic]

You've never heard of frying in a frying pan? I'm talking abou pan frying not boiling in oil.

Why not just use a cast iron pan, if you're going to use oil? It just seems like a waste to buy a teflon-coated pan, on which you can cook food perfectly fine without oil, and then put oil into it. With the oil you might as well use a cheaper, more durable pan.

The problem is they and the government consider teflon safe, even though it releases toxic compounds under normal household conditions.

I'm not sure leaving a pan on the heat with nothing in it is normal, to be honest.

If you feel strongly about this, you could always just not use Teflon-coated pans.

 

[Throckmorton]

Why not just use a cast iron pan, if you're going to use oil? It just seems like a waste to buy a teflon-coated pan, on which you can cook food perfectly fine without oil, and then put oil into it. With the oil you might as well use a cheaper, more durable pan.

It's a frying pan. That's what it's made for. Oil is irrelevant here-- if you're cooking an egg in a pan without oil, it will still reach very high temperatures.

I'm not sure leaving a pan on the heat with nothing in it is normal, to be honest.

At least 3 people in this thread have. It's normal. Just like having a car accident is normal. And guess what, cars are designed to be as safe as possible in accidents! The law requires you to wear a seatbelt. Is your stance that getting in an accident is improper use of a car and abnormal, so you shouldn't wear a seatbelt?

If you feel strongly about this, you could always just not use Teflon-coated pans.

I wouldn't have, if they informed the public on how hazardous it is... But they don't. DuPont says Teflon flu is no big deal and only birds are endangered, but they don't address the toxic chemicals.

 

[wuliheron]

But how do the VOCs from paint, exhaust gases, etc compare to the stuff that gets released from Teflon? There is some nasty stuff that gets off-gassed. But none of those articles says anything about the amounts.

I haven't a clue how they compare other then what I've already written. They've all been around for quite some time with countless people being exposed to them. That's a good sign, but then the ancient Romans also used lead pipes and dinner plates for hundreds of years. Like I said, I'd avoid solvents and sniffing tailpipes, etc. for awhile and hope for the best.

 

[Ghiedo27]

So if you don't pay attention to what you're cooking and then stick your face into the pan for a deep breath, then it's possible to get lung damage. I'm pretty okay with that. Sure, you can get some temporary symptoms from just the smoke, but you can get mono from just kissing someone and Jesus is that worse than some flu like symptoms.

I don't think heavy Govt safety regulation is doing anyone any favors in the long run. Personal responsibility has to come in somewhere. If you want to sniff fumes or text while you drive (or what have you) eventually you're going to have to accept the responsibility. "Hey, this hot device is smoking a heavily scented fume, maybe I shouldn't inhale it" is pretty far past that mile marker, imo.

 

[Mr. Pedantic]

t's a frying pan. That's what it's made for. Oil is irrelevant here-- if you're cooking an egg in a pan without oil, it will still reach very high temperatures.

If you say so. As I said, I've never actually heard of a frying pan (especially a teflon-coated one) actually used for frying. But I obviously don't use my pans for all the possible purposes for which it could be used.

At least 3 people in this thread have. It's normal. Just like having a car accident is normal. And guess what, cars are designed to be as safe as possible in accidents! The law requires you to wear a seatbelt. Is your stance that getting in an accident is improper use of a car and abnormal, so you shouldn't wear a seatbelt?

Do you mean normal as in 'it's what people do on purpose' or normal as in 'it happens despite what people do'? Because I don't think leaving my pans on the heat dry is a good idea.

 

[Biftheunderstudy]

I fry things in my Cuisinart Classic wok all the time, though its not strictly teflon. Specs say its ok up to 575F.

I never cook on the highest heat, but thats not for teflon reasons.

I hear cast iron, if seasoned properly, can be as non-stick as teflon...its something I've been meaning to look into.

 

[The Boston Dangler]

i've worked in the ptfe industry. you're fine.

edit:
it's called teflon fever. there is no way 1 pan's worth built up in your nervous system, unless you were really snorting it

 

[drizek]

If you say so. As I said, I've never actually heard of a frying pan (especially a teflon-coated one) actually used for frying. But I obviously don't use my pans for all the possible purposes for which it could be used.


Do you mean normal as in 'it's what people do on purpose' or normal as in 'it happens despite what people do'? Because I don't think leaving my pans on the heat dry is a good idea.

I use my teflon pan for frying all the time. It came in a set of three, one of them being a wok, which is pretty much only used for stir fry at very high heat.

And yes, nobody leaves pots on the stove like that on purpose, but forgetting to turn the stove off is a pretty easy thing to do. If it has never happened to you, I bet it will at some point in the future.

 

[TraumaRN]

Whatever the studies say me and my wife use a pan with a Thermolon coating which is basically silicon and oxygen. Works great, even better in some circumstances then teflon I've found. I don't even bake with teflon either. And my frying pans are all cast iron. 2 of my cast iron pans are seasoned enough they are about as non-stick as my non-stick pans.

 

[Throckmorton]

i've worked in the ptfe industry. you're fine.

edit:
it's called teflon fever. there is no way 1 pan's worth built up in your nervous system, unless you were really snorting it

Could the really bad gaseous compounds really bind to the particles and stay stuck to them overnight after cooling? That would be the biggest exposure I think, opening the lid the next morning getting particles in my lungs.

I never started coughing though

 

[The Boston Dangler]

Could the really bad gaseous compounds really bind to the particles and stay stuck to them overnight after cooling? That would be the biggest exposure I think, opening the lid the next morning getting particles in my lungs.

I never started coughing though

breathing particles and crap is usually a bad idea. to get teflon fever you pretty much have to work with it in it's pre-applied form, and even then you have to drink it or chill out in a paint booth. i was more concerned about the solvents than the ptfe.

 

[sao123]

It's a frying pan. That's what it's made for. Oil is irrelevant here-- if you're cooking an egg in a pan without oil, it will still reach very high temperatures.

Its for frying... not searing.

Never in the course of frying anything, have I ever had a pan get hot enough to smoke. you dont fry on "lite", you fry on gas level 4-5, or electric 80%. If you want to cook on ultra-high get uncoated.

 

[William Gaatjes]

Last night out of nowhere I got a warmish feeling I usually get from dehydration or being hung over. A little while later I realized that I had left a pot on the stove for a couple hours, and the teflon coating burned. Knowing teflon releases toxic stuff I opened the windows and turned on the exhaust fan.

Then I googled and found this article: http://www.tuberose.com/Teflon.html
Apparently there is something called teflon flu, flu-like symptoms caused by exposure to the chemicals released from polymers.
The part about HFP causing short term memory loss and motor skill degradation scared me so I added some more ventilation by putting a fan in my bedroom window to blow fresh air in.

So far so good I guess. But this morning I got curious and opened the lid and picked up the pot to look at the burned teflon and got a whiff of burning smell. I had assumed it was OK since all the volatiles would be burned off.

But then I looked at the article again and realized that the ultrafine particles (smoke?) are lethal to mice because the volatile chemicals apparently adsorb into them. This article confirms http://www.fluoridealert.org/pesticides/teflon.polymer.fume.fever.htm.

464°F - Ultrafine particulate matter: Teflon produces very small (ultrafine) particles which are very toxic, causing extreme lung damage to rats within 10 minutes of exposure. Longer exposures cause death. At higher temperatures, Teflon also produces toxic gases. Some scientists have found that the particles and gases together are responsible for Teflon's toxicity, perhaps because the gases adsorb to the particles, which because of their small size can lodge deep in the lower respiratory tract.


DOH. Did I breathe in the stuff that kills mice? Did I do any permanent damage to myself? Or just respiratory irritation and a small increase in cancer risk?

And why is teflon considered safe for cookware? DuPont says it's safe when used properly, but leaving a pot on the stove to burn is a common occurrence. The temperatures listed in those articles are reached during normal frying too.

I do not know what you eat but most food is no longer edible when you burn it at the melting point of teflon. Yes big black crusts on meat (from a barbecue for example) might seem to taste great but is not that healthy either. And letting your pans and pots burn on a stove is not the fault of the manufacturer, it is your fault. Besides, a little bit of sunflower oil is always good to use for making food.
And most proteins and fats we eat after cooking, fall apart at lower temperatures then the melting point of teflon. The big question is, how do they fix the teflon layer to the metal pan. And read the manual how to use a teflon coated pan.

 

[William Gaatjes]

Yes. I stopped using teflon long ago & started using spray on no stick, olive oil based. Even just extra virgin olive oil is just fine and healthful.:thumbsup:


I got the idea back when I was single the 1st time. In my most efficient AND el-cheepo mode of getting out the door in the AM & had a plan for lunch back in the apt., I put a couple of eggs on a low heat so they would be boiling when I got out of the shower & could finish off while I ate breakfast. NOT! Forgot all about the eggs until I was headed back from work at lunch time. :'(

whooowee Did that whole side of the apartment building stink or what when I came in the main entrance. Bits of eggs were on ceiling & pot was glowing red with some residue of teflon. At least I had an apartment with windows on the front & rear as did everyone else.

Never did that again & no more teflon. Glad I didn't kill anyone.

The obvious solution for this is to set a timer. I would not be surprised if most electrical cooking furnaces already have one that shuts down the power. For gas furnaces a timer operated safety gas valve would be ideal.

For eggs electrical boiling devices exist with a timer. For me this is ideal because i am also the kind of person who puts eggs to boil in a pot and then after an hour remembers that i had eggs boiling.

 

[darkware]

Okay... this is really easier than it sounds.

Can you fry in a frying pan? Yes, of course. That's what they're for.

I think the key thing that some people are missing is this: Temperature.

The decomposition of Teflon doesn't start to occur until 500F (cite). If you keep your pan under 500F, then Teflon is totally safe.

Now, let's take a look at sane cooking temperatures. In general, cooking in a dry pan is unwise (for safety and taste). Generally, you're going to use some form of fat to cook in, and that's going to dictate the temperature you're cooking at. Extra virgin olive oil smokes at about 380F. Canola Oil (light vegetable oil) smokes at 425F. Corn oil smokes at 450F.

If you are smoking oil in your pan it is too hot. Generally you're not going to be cooking at a temperature that even smokes olive oil. When I fry up boneless skinless chicken breasts, the pan temperature is probably no more than 350F, and I do that to give them a nice caramelized surface.

And, just like a heatspreader on a CPU, a pan does a pretty good job of spreading and ditching heat, so long as it has a place to go. So, as a rule of thumb, unless you're using refined avacado oil (smoke point at 500F+) you're going to smoke the oil and be making crappy food before you reach the point where Teflon can decompose and start causing a safety concern.

Other than that: Don't use teflon pans bare if you're oblivious to the heat they're being exposed to. Even then, a bare teflon pan will char any normal food before it reaches 500F. I know it sounds silly to say "It's safe unless you're burning your food", but what its telling you is that the state of your food or oil is an indicator that your pan is way hotter than is safe.

EDIT: As a side note: Generally, you shouldn't even be using teflon pans for high heat cooking, as its a waste of your time. Teflon just doesn't caramelize like a good steel or even aluminum pan. I'd say that if you're cooking over 300F in teflon, you're cooking wrong.

 

[Throckmorton]

Its for frying... not searing.

Never in the course of frying anything, have I ever had a pan get hot enough to smoke. you dont fry on "lite", you fry on gas level 4-5, or electric 80%. If you want to cook on ultra-high get uncoated.

But the stuff starts to be released at relatively low temperatures, long before it actually smokes.

 

[Rudy Toody]

My cooking improved once I learned to use a timer, instead of the smoke alarm.