Teachers strike over student wearing headscarf in France

[Ryan]

.http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/ns/news/story.jsp?id=2004052512470002624190&dt=20040525124700&w=RTR&coview=

Second expulsion for veiled schoolgirl in France



STRASBOURG, France, May 25 (Reuters) - A Muslim girl who refuses to remove her headscarf was expelled on Tuesday from French state schools for the second time in six months, education authorities said.

Hilal, a 12-year-old of Turkish origin, was shut out of a school in the eastern town of Thann in November for refusing to uncover her hair. Another school there took her in on condition that she wear a bandana instead of the full headscarf.

But Hilal went back to the full headscarf after only a few days of wearing the bandana, sparking off a day-long strike by teachers in March demanding that she conform to the rule banning overt signs of religious affiliation.

"The agreement was never clearly put into practice, despite the contacts the principal had with her and her parents," said Philippe Hemez, a local school board official.


France has passed a ban on pupils wearing religious garb in school, judging it a violation of the constitutional separation of church and state, and plans to implement it in September.


The new law leaves some flexibility for compromise solutions such as bandanas, as Muslim leaders have proposed, but the full head-and-shoulders scarf that Hilal wears would not be allowed.


Hilal's family has a week to appear the expulsion. If it is upheld, school officials will have to find another school for her or organise a correspondence course to allow her to continue her schooling.


A handful of other children have been expelled under the law

Anytime I think we have it bad here in the US, I just have to look to France to cheer me up

 

[Klixxer]

Originally posted by: rbloedow
.http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/ns/news/story.jsp?id=2004052512470002624190&dt=20040525124700&w=RTR&coview=

Second expulsion for veiled schoolgirl in France



STRASBOURG, France, May 25 (Reuters) - A Muslim girl who refuses to remove her headscarf was expelled on Tuesday from French state schools for the second time in six months, education authorities said.

Hilal, a 12-year-old of Turkish origin, was shut out of a school in the eastern town of Thann in November for refusing to uncover her hair. Another school there took her in on condition that she wear a bandana instead of the full headscarf.

But Hilal went back to the full headscarf after only a few days of wearing the bandana, sparking off a day-long strike by teachers in March demanding that she conform to the rule banning overt signs of religious affiliation.

"The agreement was never clearly put into practice, despite the contacts the principal had with her and her parents," said Philippe Hemez, a local school board official.


France has passed a ban on pupils wearing religious garb in school, judging it a violation of the constitutional separation of church and state, and plans to implement it in September.


The new law leaves some flexibility for compromise solutions such as bandanas, as Muslim leaders have proposed, but the full head-and-shoulders scarf that Hilal wears would not be allowed.


Hilal's family has a week to appear the expulsion. If it is upheld, school officials will have to find another school for her or organise a correspondence course to allow her to continue her schooling.


A handful of other children have been expelled under the law

Anytime I think we have it bad here in the US, I just have to look to France to cheer me up

I think the law is unfortunate but that probably has a lot to do with the fact that i do not know enough about the situation in France.

Before i make a definitive judgement, i would be inclined to research what has happened instead of just jumping up and down and scream racists. (not directed at you rbloedow)

 

[Zephyr106]

Considering the opinion many Americans have of Muslims, if 10% of our population was Muslim and not really "conforming" to "American culture," I think we would be having problems too.

Zephyr

 

[RabidMongoose]

What compassionate teachers...

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: Zephyr106
Considering the opinion many Americans have of Muslims, if 10% of our population was Muslim and not really "conforming" to "American culture," I think we would be having problems too.

Zephyr

One has to wonder why so many have not 'conformed'...perhaps because they are alienated and 'attacked' by society?

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: rbloedow
.http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/ns/news/story.jsp?id=2004052512470002624190&dt=20040525124700&w=RTR&coview=

Second expulsion for veiled schoolgirl in France



STRASBOURG, France, May 25 (Reuters) - A Muslim girl who refuses to remove her headscarf was expelled on Tuesday from French state schools for the second time in six months, education authorities said.

Hilal, a 12-year-old of Turkish origin, was shut out of a school in the eastern town of Thann in November for refusing to uncover her hair. Another school there took her in on condition that she wear a bandana instead of the full headscarf.

But Hilal went back to the full headscarf after only a few days of wearing the bandana, sparking off a day-long strike by teachers in March demanding that she conform to the rule banning overt signs of religious affiliation.

"The agreement was never clearly put into practice, despite the contacts the principal had with her and her parents," said Philippe Hemez, a local school board official.


France has passed a ban on pupils wearing religious garb in school, judging it a violation of the constitutional separation of church and state, and plans to implement it in September.


The new law leaves some flexibility for compromise solutions such as bandanas, as Muslim leaders have proposed, but the full head-and-shoulders scarf that Hilal wears would not be allowed.


Hilal's family has a week to appear the expulsion. If it is upheld, school officials will have to find another school for her or organise a correspondence course to allow her to continue her schooling.


A handful of other children have been expelled under the law

Anytime I think we have it bad here in the US, I just have to look to France to cheer me up

This is a great law. I applaud the teachers for taking religion out of classroom and protesting when the law is not complied with. The law applies to all religions, including Catholocism. In France, they take the separation of church and state seriously. The ideal French citizen is simply French, not Muslim French or Jewish French. This contrasts with the US view of citizenship but that in itself does not mean the French model of citizenship is flawed. France wants its future to be a secular one. This is fine for two reasons. a) religion is problematic. b) To a certain degree cultural relativism is acceptable, nobody is talking about cutting of genitals here in the name of culture. If France wants to be secular, let them go for it.

(Also, in case the original poster hasn't travelled much, I suggest you spend a year or two in France or another European country. In my experience a lot of people who think the US is the best place to live, #1, etc simply haven't really experienced other countries. And of those I have seen that have tried living in Europe, they tend to view their lifestyles as admirable after living there.)

 

[Klixxer]

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
What compassionate teachers...

The teachers are to blame when a law is enforced? If you are going to blame anyone, blame the government of France for making the law.

BTW, this has nothing to do with muslims, the end result would have been the same for any religious symbol, that includes visible crosses.

 

[0marTheZealot]

As I remembered it, chains with the embelm of the cross and yamakas were allowed to be worn.

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: Klixxer

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
What compassionate teachers...

The teachers are to blame when a law is enforced? If you are going to blame anyone, blame the government of France for making the law.

BTW, this has nothing to do with muslims, the end result would have been the same for any religious symbol, that includes visible crosses.

Where did I say the teachers are the blame when a law is enforced? I'm simply stating that these teachers have no compassion for this student.

In addition, I believe that I have read that this law, as stated by French politicians, was really made to target Muslims in France. However, this law is better than what was proposed in Germany and elsewhere.

One point that I don't understand is this:

France has passed a ban on pupils wearing religious garb in school, judging it a violation of the constitutional separation of church and state, and plans to implement it in September.

Is it now implemented right now?

 

[Klixxer]

Originally posted by: 0marTheZealot
As I remembered it, chains with the embelm of the cross and yamakas were allowed to be worn.

You remember wrong, it has to do with religious symbols, not the veil in particular.

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: 0marTheZealot
As I remembered it, chains with the embelm of the cross and yamakas were allowed to be worn.

No, those aren't allowed either.

 

[Klixxer]

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: Klixxer

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
What compassionate teachers...

The teachers are to blame when a law is enforced? If you are going to blame anyone, blame the government of France for making the law.

BTW, this has nothing to do with muslims, the end result would have been the same for any religious symbol, that includes visible crosses.

Where did I say the teachers are the blame when a law is enforced? I'm simply stating that these teachers have no compassion for this student.

In addition, I believe that I have read that this law, as stated by French politicians, was really made to target Muslims in France. However, this law is better than what was proposed in Germany and elsewhere.

One point that I don't understand is this:

France has passed a ban on pupils wearing religious garb in school, judging it a violation of the constitutional separation of church and state, and plans to implement it in September.

Is it now implemented right now?

Where did you read that? link?

The ban is already there, there is a period of time for schools to implement it, after that period of time all religious symbols worn in schools will make the student expelled, kinda like a period of time for the schools to start enforcing it.

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: Klixxer

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: Klixxer

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
What compassionate teachers...

The teachers are to blame when a law is enforced? If you are going to blame anyone, blame the government of France for making the law.

BTW, this has nothing to do with muslims, the end result would have been the same for any religious symbol, that includes visible crosses.

Where did I say the teachers are the blame when a law is enforced? I'm simply stating that these teachers have no compassion for this student.

In addition, I believe that I have read that this law, as stated by French politicians, was really made to target Muslims in France. However, this law is better than what was proposed in Germany and elsewhere.

One point that I don't understand is this:

France has passed a ban on pupils wearing religious garb in school, judging it a violation of the constitutional separation of church and state, and plans to implement it in September.

Is it now implemented right now?

Where did you read that? link?

The ban is already there, there is a period of time for schools to implement it, after that period of time all religious symbols worn in schools will make the student expelled, kinda like a period of time for the schools to start enforcing it.

Read the entire article, it's in the one posted here.

 

[Klixxer]

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: Klixxer

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: Klixxer

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
What compassionate teachers...

The teachers are to blame when a law is enforced? If you are going to blame anyone, blame the government of France for making the law.

BTW, this has nothing to do with muslims, the end result would have been the same for any religious symbol, that includes visible crosses.

Where did I say the teachers are the blame when a law is enforced? I'm simply stating that these teachers have no compassion for this student.

In addition, I believe that I have read that this law, as stated by French politicians, was really made to target Muslims in France. However, this law is better than what was proposed in Germany and elsewhere.

One point that I don't understand is this:

France has passed a ban on pupils wearing religious garb in school, judging it a violation of the constitutional separation of church and state, and plans to implement it in September.

Is it now implemented right now?

Where did you read that? link?

The ban is already there, there is a period of time for schools to implement it, after that period of time all religious symbols worn in schools will make the student expelled, kinda like a period of time for the schools to start enforcing it.

Read the entire article, it's in the one posted here.

I meant where did you read that French politicians (not the moronic LePen who has nothing to do with reality of politics in France) said that the law was made to target Muslims specifically, and if so, wouldn't it be pretty dumb to include other religious symbols?

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: Klixxer

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: Klixxer

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: Klixxer

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
What compassionate teachers...

The teachers are to blame when a law is enforced? If you are going to blame anyone, blame the government of France for making the law.

BTW, this has nothing to do with muslims, the end result would have been the same for any religious symbol, that includes visible crosses.

Where did I say the teachers are the blame when a law is enforced? I'm simply stating that these teachers have no compassion for this student.

In addition, I believe that I have read that this law, as stated by French politicians, was really made to target Muslims in France. However, this law is better than what was proposed in Germany and elsewhere.

One point that I don't understand is this:

France has passed a ban on pupils wearing religious garb in school, judging it a violation of the constitutional separation of church and state, and plans to implement it in September.

Is it now implemented right now?

Where did you read that? link?

The ban is already there, there is a period of time for schools to implement it, after that period of time all religious symbols worn in schools will make the student expelled, kinda like a period of time for the schools to start enforcing it.

Read the entire article, it's in the one posted here.

I meant where did you read that French politicians (not the moronic LePen who has nothing to do with reality of politics in France) said that the law was made to target Muslims specifically, and if so, wouldn't it be pretty dumb to include other religious symbols?

I read it a while ago in an article, where a politician or some officials said it. Anyways, I'm not trying to make a big point out of it. However, I would think that this law would further alienate their Muslim population.

How can LePenn have nothing to do with the reality of politics if he's the head of one of the largest political organizations? No significant power, but he possibly influences some.

 

[Klixxer]

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: Klixxer

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: Klixxer

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: Klixxer

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
What compassionate teachers...

The teachers are to blame when a law is enforced? If you are going to blame anyone, blame the government of France for making the law.

BTW, this has nothing to do with muslims, the end result would have been the same for any religious symbol, that includes visible crosses.

Where did I say the teachers are the blame when a law is enforced? I'm simply stating that these teachers have no compassion for this student.

In addition, I believe that I have read that this law, as stated by French politicians, was really made to target Muslims in France. However, this law is better than what was proposed in Germany and elsewhere.

One point that I don't understand is this:

France has passed a ban on pupils wearing religious garb in school, judging it a violation of the constitutional separation of church and state, and plans to implement it in September.

Is it now implemented right now?

Where did you read that? link?

The ban is already there, there is a period of time for schools to implement it, after that period of time all religious symbols worn in schools will make the student expelled, kinda like a period of time for the schools to start enforcing it.

Read the entire article, it's in the one posted here.

I meant where did you read that French politicians (not the moronic LePen who has nothing to do with reality of politics in France) said that the law was made to target Muslims specifically, and if so, wouldn't it be pretty dumb to include other religious symbols?

I read it a while ago in an article, where a politician or some officials said it. Anyways, I'm not trying to make a big point out of it. However, I would think that this law would further alienate their Muslim population.

How can LePenn have nothing to do with the reality of politics if he's the head of one of the largest political organizations? No significant power, but he possibly influences some.

The KKK is one of the most influential organizations of the US, so what?

If the law alienates muslims that is too bad, the law isn't all that bad because it does not discriminate between religions, i still think it is unfortunate, not so much because of the law itself, but because how others view it, when stories about a student being expelled makes headlines on CNN because of a law that does not discriminate and then see everybodys reaction to it i think it is a bad move.

Again, i don't know enough to really discuss this, FreeGeeks would probably do a much better job.

 

[CanOWorms]

the slide to genocide in Europe continues Why are they so keen to repeat history?

 

[jagec]

Originally posted by: Infohawk

This is a great law. I applaud the teachers for taking religion out of classroom and protesting when the law is not complied with. The law applies to all religions, including Catholocism. In France, they take the separation of church and state seriously. The ideal French citizen is simply French, not Muslim French or Jewish French. This contrasts with the US view of citizenship but that in itself does not mean the French model of citizenship is flawed. France wants its future to be a secular one. This is fine for two reasons. a) religion is problematic. b) To a certain degree cultural relativism is acceptable, nobody is talking about cutting of genitals here in the name of culture. If France wants to be secular, let them go for it.

GREAT idea...if people want to be a certain way, we can force them to be another way. Why don't you just round all the religious people up in camps and shoot them? Since religion is so problematic to you maybe that would be a good "final solution.":roll:

considering atheism is just as much a "religion" as any other it sounds to me like France is just trying to impose a statewide religion to make the people easier to manage.

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: Klixxer
The KKK is one of the most influential organizations of the US, so what?

The KKK itself isn't a political organization that garners a significant (not 15-18%? like LePen) portion of the vote. Your comment is ridiculous. Wasn't LePen in a runoff against Chirac? I guess I should say that the Nazis are one of the most influential organizations in Germany, but that would be idiotic. You get far too defensive. You can be critical of certain areas of Europe without being so defensive.

If the law alienates muslims that is too bad, the law isn't all that bad because it does not discriminate between religions, i still think it is unfortunate, not so much because of the law itself, but because how others view it, when stories about a student being expelled makes headlines on CNN because of a law that does not discriminate and then see everybodys reaction to it i think it is a bad move.

I've already said that the law isn't as horrible as what was proposed in Germany and I guess Denmark (?). However, I think that this is a horrible law that will only lead to further alienate France's minority population.

Again, i don't know enough to really discuss this, FreeGeeks would probably do a much better job.

FreeGeeks is a troll. He can't do a good job on anything since he's too patriotic.

 

[freegeeks]

I applaude France for this law. Religion has no place in a public education system IMO.
If also want to point out that in Turkey this law exist already for decades. They have kept religion out of the govt. and the schools and that's probably one of the reasons why Turkey is one of the only democracies in the Arab world. Religion has been used and abused for far to long by people who have different motives. A lot of young Muslim girls are forced by their father/brother to wear a scarf to make a statement. A lot of people also forget that there was already a law from 1905 that states that France is a secular country and forbids any display of religiosity in schools or the workplace

Like always, it's always extremists who f*ck it up for everybody else

btw: there were several polls done about this subject among French Muslim girls
a majority support the law. When they also included the Muslim males in polls only 45% support the law.
If you look at these figures it becomes clear that some males are using the scarf as a tool of oppression.

 

[Spencer278]

The law clearly is intended to target musslims. It may effectf other religions but not as much.

 

[peonyu]

It looks like its the headscarf thats doing more to alienate french-muslims than not wearing one is.
Afterall, its easy to distinguish someone who has thier face covered from someone who doesnt, and that makes it easy for other muslim girls to group up in school since they have that in common and not get around other cultures.

Its self-alienation, not french imposed alienatation...

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: freegeeks
btw: there were several polls done about this subject among French Muslim girls
a majority support the law. When they also included the Muslim males in polls only 45% support the law.
If you look at these figures it becomes clear that some males are using the scarf as a tool of oppression.

If you look at your post it becomes clear that you are just wrapping and spinning something around to justify your views. How is it clear that they're using it as a tool of oppression from those polls? That's like saying if 60% of the population doesn't want to ban chocolate, then they want everyone to be obese. Also, I read in one article that 49% of the women support it. That's not a big difference from 45%.

 

[freegeeks]

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

Originally posted by: freegeeks
btw: there were several polls done about this subject among French Muslim girls
a majority support the law. When they also included the Muslim males in polls only 45% support the law.
If you look at these figures it becomes clear that some males are using the scarf as a tool of oppression.

If you look at your post it becomes clear that you are just wrapping and spinning something around to justify your views. How is it clear that they're using it as a tool of oppression from those polls? That's like saying if 60% of the population doesn't want to ban chocolate, then they want everyone to be obese. Also, I read in one article that 49% of the women support it. That's not a big difference from 45%.

what views am I trying to justify???

 

[Zephyr106]

Originally posted by: CanOWorms
the slide to genocide in Europe continues Why are they so keen to repeat history?

OH TEH NOES!!!! Another Slippery Slope argument?

Zephyr