Teach Me!

[tophyr]

I'm not gonna lie, I'm a little bit overwhelmed by all the architecture options out there I'm steadily re-learning my way around, but to put it bluntly when I stopped paying close attention to the latest and greatest hardware to have, the AMD Athlon Thunderbird 1ghz was *the* processor to have, and the NVIDIA GeForce3 Ti500 was unbeatable.

So enter me now. I do know for sure that I want a Core 2 Duo processor, probably the low-end E6300, because (a) it's (relatively) cheap and (b) this article indicates that it overclocks to perform close to the much-more-pricey procs. Mostly, however, I just want it because it's true dual-core. Proc power hasn't come close to limiting me for the two years I've used a Pentium M 1.6ghz, so two 1.83ghz cores will provide me more than enough power. All I really care about is SMP.

The only other things I know for sure are that I want 3gb ram, two hard disks for RAID (size is largely irrelevant), and that I've got a roughly $~1000 budget. I plan to use the computer for software development, digital photography (not dinky point-and-shoot stuff, i mean cleaning up and working on actual several-hundred-mb Photoshop *photographs*) and, hopefully, watching TV/possibly TiVo'ing.

With that in mind, here's what I've found on pricewatch.com:

Asus P5B Deluxe WiFi/AP Motherboard - $196.99
Not sure I really need the Wi-Fi bit, although I do hate my Netgear WGT624 router/ap with a firey passion. I'm just not sure a self-described Software Access Point, combined with a nonserver-configured XP/Vista machine would do a much more reliable job as a firewall/router. Plus, I want Bluetooth support anyway.

Everything else looks spectacular though - great proc support, great OC support, onboard video and lan, onboard SATA RAID, plenty of usb ports etc etc etc. Would be nice if it had onboard video though. Can't have everything, I guess.

Intel Core 2 Duo E6300 Processor - $183.00
E6300 only has 2mb cache, as opposed to 4mb on the E6600+. That overclocking article said that once the low-end proc was OC'ed to perform at E6600 levels, the lack of cache only appeared to cost about 200mhz, relatively. Gonna matter very much?

3x CORSAIR XMS2 1GB DDR2-800 Memory[/u] - $554.00 ($138.00 ea)
This was the cheapest DDR2-800 memory I could find that's on the Asus P5B's Memory QVL. Do I even *need* DDR2-800? What other memory options would be available to me with the mobo's 240-pin slots? How big of a price drop is it to go from DDR2-800 to the next step down? Re: dual-channel, I assume it'd be most beneficial to go with two channels of 1.5gb each, or does that make a difference?

Memory throughput is nice for me and all but really all I'm completely concerned with is having the high ceiling - I don't necessarily need the throughput of Niagara Falls, I just need to be able to store Lake Superior in RAM. I currently very regularly use in excess of 1000mb of "ram" on my 512mb-physical-ram laptop. I hate paging

Chiefmax NVIDIA GeForce FX5700LE 128mb AGP Video Card - $35
Video card performance isn't really much of a concern at all for me. I plan to eventually get a TV card/tuner (do those come with tv-out, too? i hope...) and I don't really care about hardware dvd decoding or anything. The only thing that I want that's remotely high-end is dual-monitor support. Anyone know of a cheap dual-head card that's AGP and equipped with a decent amount of ram? I saw a bunch of dirt-cheap dual-heads with 64mb ram, but that's probably not enough to even run Vista :/

Hard drives I'm totally in the air about. I wanted RAID 1 for its redundance (my laptop recently ****** bricks due to a failed hd, and I may have lost a lot of needed data), but honestly that's easily solved with regular backups. I don't need near-instantaneous restores that RAID 1 gives, I just want data security Also, I make (made) do perfectly well with a dinky little 30gb drive, and have an external 200gb one where I put my music, videos etc. So don't really know at all what I want here.

Case, monitor(s) etc I can ebay/craigslist easily. I don't have a clue as to what I'd need PSU-wise for all this, hopefully someone can assist me there.

Anything I missed? Thanks for your attention and patience with a re-newb, heh.

 

[imported_Dekard]

for hardrives I'd be looking at the 500+g or raptor 150 for ultimate performance. For photoshop the added speed for input\output will really pay off. You need matched ram for dual channel access, ie. 2 x 1g or 2 x 2g. 3 x 1 will reduce your ram bandwidth by half. you could do 2 x 1 and 2 x 512 for 3 gigs if you wanted. You need a PCI-e video card, not a agp. Also, get at least a 6600 for decent performance.

otherwise you've got a solid list..

 

[mcurphy]

Originally posted by: Dekard
for hardrives I'd be looking at the 500+g or raptor 150 for ultimate performance. For photoshop the added speed for input\output will really pay off. You need matched ram for dual channel access, ie. 2 x 1g or 2 x 2g. 3 x 1 will reduce your ram bandwidth by half. you could do 2 x 1 and 2 x 512 for 3 gigs if you wanted. You need a PCI-e video card, not a agp. Also, get at least a 6600 for decent performance.

otherwise you've got a solid list..

I agree with the RAM advice. You want to use the dual channel support, so try getting your RAM in sets. I only mess around with photoshop for fun, but 2GB has always been plenty for me. Maybe try just 2 sticks of 1GB, see how it works for you, and then you can always add another gig if needed. I don't, however, agree to the faster proc. You should be fine with the 6300. If you plan to OC, make sure you have adequate cooling and power. And whatever you do...DON'T skimp on your power supply. The Enahnce - E5150GH 500W psu is highly recommended for good power on the cheap. They can be had for around $65 I think.

With the money saved on RAM, maybe look to get a nice mid ranged video card in the $150-$200 range. The improved GPU over the card that you have selected would help processing those large image files you mentioned.

 

[imported_Dekard]

A GPU has nothing to do with processing files... Only the 2d performance of the card matters under windows xp and photoshop. With Vista the GPU will help but its still not processing the files, just displaying them in 3d.

 

[ShellGuy]

Yes you have a fairley nice rig no way you should go with AGP, also start with 2gb ram and you should be ok, and use the spare $138 to get a raptor drive.. and at least a 6600gt or so..


Will G.

 

[biostud]

That videocard is not going to fit into your motherboard, you need a PCIe videocard, not AGP. get an X1300 or something similar.

 

[hurtstotalktoyou]

Originally posted by: tophyr
Asus P5B Deluxe WiFi/AP Motherboard - $196.99
Not sure I really need the Wi-Fi bit, although I do hate my Netgear WGT624 router/ap with a firey passion. I'm just not sure a self-described Software Access Point, combined with a nonserver-configured XP/Vista machine would do a much more reliable job as a firewall/router. Plus, I want Bluetooth support anyway.

Everything else looks spectacular though - great proc support, great OC support, onboard video and lan, onboard SATA RAID, plenty of usb ports etc etc etc. Would be nice if it had onboard video though. Can't have everything, I guess.

The P5B Deluxe WiFi/AP is more than you need, I assure you. I suggest looking first at the Gigabyte GA-965P-DS3 ($141.12 shipped). It's got everything you apparently need, including killer overclocking, RAID 0/1, hi-def 7.1 audio, gigabit LAN, 6x SATA ports and DDR2-800 support. A step up from there is the Asus P5B-E ($157.40 shipped), which adds IEEE 1394a to the mix, as well as more RAID options (0/1/5/10 Matrix). However, unless you plan on using something other than RAID 0/1 *and* you have firewire devices, I'd save the $16.28 and get the Gigabyte board. If you need wireless support, you'll be better off just installing a PCI adapter than using an integrated chip, for reasons of both pricing and performance.

Intel Core 2 Duo E6300 Processor - $183.00
E6300 only has 2mb cache, as opposed to 4mb on the E6600+. That overclocking article said that once the low-end proc was OC'ed to perform at E6600 levels, the lack of cache only appeared to cost about 200mhz, relatively. Gonna matter very much?

I agree. The E6300 is your best bet.

3x CORSAIR XMS2 1GB DDR2-800 Memory[/u] - $554.00 ($138.00 ea)
This was the cheapest DDR2-800 memory I could find that's on the Asus P5B's Memory QVL. Do I even *need* DDR2-800? What other memory options would be available to me with the mobo's 240-pin slots? How big of a price drop is it to go from DDR2-800 to the next step down? Re: dual-channel, I assume it'd be most beneficial to go with two channels of 1.5gb each, or does that make a difference?

Memory throughput is nice for me and all but really all I'm completely concerned with is having the high ceiling - I don't necessarily need the throughput of Niagara Falls, I just need to be able to store Lake Superior in RAM. I currently very regularly use in excess of 1000mb of "ram" on my 512mb-physical-ram laptop. I hate paging

First of all, the RAM you picked out is in danger of being incompatible with Core 2 Duo boards. I *strongly* suggest getting 1.8v memory. Second, I suggest you get 2GB RAM for now. 3GB will cost you a lot more, and give you very little in the way of extra performance. Thirdly, if you do insist on 3GB, you'll need to get two 1GB DIMMs and two 512MB DIMMs, not three 1GB DIMMs; otherwise you won't be able to run dual-channel. Fourthly, DDR2-667 is plenty; DDR2-800 won't give you much of a performance boost, nor will it improve your CPU overclocking potential.

Given all that, I'd recommend the Patriot Signature Series 2GB (2x1GB) DDR2-667 kit with heat spreaders ($212.48 shipped). If you feel you absolutely must have DDR2-800 memory, go for the Mushkin 996529 2GB (2x1GB) DDR2-800 kit ($244.98 shipped), but I strongly recommend saving $32.50 and going with the Patriot sticks. If you need that third GB, I suggest you get more Patriot Signature Series ($110.98 shipped) for DDR2-667 or a Geil kit ($114.98 shipped) for DDR2-800.

But all in all, I recommend sticking with 2GB Patriot DDR2-667. That should be plenty, and save you almost $150 for other, more practical upgrades.

Chiefmax NVIDIA GeForce FX5700LE 128mb AGP Video Card - $35
Video card performance isn't really much of a concern at all for me. I plan to eventually get a TV card/tuner (do those come with tv-out, too? i hope...) and I don't really care about hardware dvd decoding or anything. The only thing that I want that's remotely high-end is dual-monitor support. Anyone know of a cheap dual-head card that's AGP and equipped with a decent amount of ram? I saw a bunch of dirt-cheap dual-heads with 64mb ram, but that's probably not enough to even run Vista :/

You cannot use AGP with any decent Core 2 Duo motherboard. PCIe x16 is the interface you need, and they start at $37.98 shipped. However, I suggest spending just a little bit more, and getting a passively-cooled GDDR2/64-bit card. I've been looking at the Biostar V6202TL16 GeForce 6200 TC ($43.98) for myself, and I think it would suit you, too. It's got everything you should need, including both VGA and DVI ports for dual displays, as well as a TV out port (s-video and composite/RCA are both supported). And it's only $6 more than the absolute bare minimum.

Hard drives I'm totally in the air about. I wanted RAID 1 for its redundance (my laptop recently ****** bricks due to a failed hd, and I may have lost a lot of needed data), but honestly that's easily solved with regular backups. I don't need near-instantaneous restores that RAID 1 gives, I just want data security Also, I make (made) do perfectly well with a dinky little 30gb drive, and have an external 200gb one where I put my music, videos etc. So don't really know at all what I want here.

I think RAID 1 is a great idea if you have the money for it. Hard disks are pretty cheap, nowadays. A pair of Western Digital Caviar SE 250GB drives ($139.98 total) should be fine for data storage, and maybe a single 80 GB drive ($49.28 shipped) for your operating system and software. That's $189.26 for 330GB of hard disk space, which isn't too expensive--and the benefits are overwhelming.

Case, monitor(s) etc I can ebay/craigslist easily. I don't have a clue as to what I'd need PSU-wise for all this, hopefully someone can assist me there.

Just to warn you, you're going to get *a lot* of conflicting advice regarding PSUs. I suggest doing some research on the issue, yourself, before taking anyone's word for it. However, as long as I'm handing out suggestions, I'll tell you that I'd go for the FSP Group (Fortron Source) ATX400-PA ($44.10 shipped). If you think you need more, maybe try the AX450-PN ($61.63 shipped). If you can find a better PSU for less, go for it, but I wouldn't spend a penny more than $70, and I'd aim for $50 or less if possible--and since you're not getting a powerful video card, I assure you a sub-$50 PSU is indeed adequate for your purposes.

But like I said, folks here are never going to come to a consensus on a PSU. That's just a fact of anandtech life.

Good luck with your new rig!

 

[Boyo]

Get a better video card. At the very least take a look at the 7600GS or the 7900GT....I use Phtoshop too and 2Gb is plenty to run the program with out any hicups, but I would suggest that you get a 150GB Raptor to help run Photoshop faster.

 

[SludgeFactory]

I'm in the process of putting together a new rig as well and have been playing catch-up with PC technology the last few weeks.

Your CPU/mobo looks good to me, I'm looking at the same CPU and an Asus P5B-E maybe. Core 2 Duo is *highly* overclockable. If you have any intentions of overclocking, make sure your RAM is capable of running at a decently high FSB speed that can keep up with an overclocked E6300. Otherwise you can save some money by just getting value RAM that runs at the stock FSB of 266 MHz (DDR2-533) if you're not worried about running tight timings. I'm stuck on shopping for RAM at the moment, the prices are high and all the D9 modules I was considering were out of stock at Newegg/zipzoomfly last I checked.

You need a PCI-e video card with that motherboard, it doesn't have an AGP slot. I'd check Hot Deals for a video card. I was able to get a passively cooled 7600GS for $50 after rebate about 3 weeks ago. I saw a deal for a more powerful 7600GT at something like $80 or $90 AR yesterday, among others.

Power supplies are up to the ATX 2.x standard now, with 24 pin plugs. Enhance looks good to me too, I ordered and have an ENP-5140GH (400 W) waiting to go into my new build, ~$60 shipped. Their ENP-51xxGH models are 80%+ efficiency, so it should run fairly cool and quiet, it has a stout rating on the 12V rails, and it's fairly inexpensive as 80+ PSU's go. I also considered Seasonic. Generally, most of the current draw in a modern rig is from 12V components (CPU and GPU), so you want to look at how many amps a PSU can deliver on the 12V rail(s). Jonnyguru and silentpcreview do thorough PSU reviews and have some good information. You don't want to skimp and get a no-name piece of garbage here, but OTOH, having been out of the loop for a few years, the market that has developed for high-end PSU's seems insane to me.

 

[tophyr]

Wow, thanks for all the responses! Didn't expect such a fast response Especially hurtstotalktoyou, thanks a ton. That video card is exactly what I need. Do most/all cards with both DVI and VGA out support dual heads?

Didn't even realize the mobo didn't have an AGP slot.. PCIe > AGP then, I assume? What's the difference between PCIe x16 and PCIe x1? x16 is 16 times more awesome than x1? The Asus P5B-E and the Gigabyte boards only offer one PCIe x16 slot (with three x1 slots) as opposed to two x16 slots and one x1 slot on the Deluxe. What sorts of cards use x1 and x16? If I get the dual-head vid card then I won't need a second video card, but I would eventually like to add a TV tuner, hopefully with a hw MPEG encoder/decoder. I can't really think of anything else I'd need, though - Bluetooth I could get a usb dongle for, sound and hd are onboard.

I am gonna push through with 3gb ram, but it sounds like I don't really need DDR2-800. Do DDR2-667 or (gasp) -533 or -400 still have the funky 1.8v JEDEC requirement, or can I find basically any kind of ram and slap it in? Looks like I can find 3gb of DDR2-667 for about $300 (2x 1gb and 2x 512mb) as opposed to nearing $600, and -533 and -400 for even cheaper.

That WD Caviar pair looks pretty nice, although I can't imagine ever filling 250gb (or certainly not 500gb if I don't go with RAID 1). Although, heh, that phrase alone is reminiscent of DOS's design motto, "Who the hell's ever gonna use 512kb of RAM? No way that'll ever get filled, we'll limit the heap size there." Their price is pretty good for their size, though, comparing them to that 80gb drive.

Anyway, thanks a ton, this thread has already taught me more than I've learned reading reviews and such for the last week.

 

[hurtstotalktoyou]

Originally posted by: tophyr
Wow, thanks for all the responses! Didn't expect such a fast response Especially hurtstotalktoyou, thanks a ton. That video card is exactly what I need. Do most/all cards with both DVI and VGA out support dual heads?

Sort of. But a lot of dual-output cards have driver and/or software issues, so you need to look at reviews and be careful.

Didn't even realize the mobo didn't have an AGP slot.. PCIe > AGP then, I assume?

Yes and no. PCIe x16 is the next generation video card interface, and obviously supports better performance. However, for non-gamers like you and I, it doesn't really matter. The problem is, modern boards simply do not support AGP cards. Technology moves quickly, that way.

What's the difference between PCIe x16 and PCIe x1? x16 is 16 times more awesome than x1? The Asus P5B-E and the Gigabyte boards only offer one PCIe x16 slot (with three x1 slots) as opposed to two x16 slots and one x1 slot on the Deluxe. What sorts of cards use x1 and x16? If I get the dual-head vid card then I won't need a second video card, but I would eventually like to add a TV tuner, hopefully with a hw MPEG encoder/decoder. I can't really think of anything else I'd need, though - Bluetooth I could get a usb dongle for, sound and hd are onboard.

Well, this gets a little weird, so bear with me...

For all practical purposes, PCIe x16 is not related to PCIe x1, despite the similar names. PCIe x16 is pretty much exclusively a video card interface. PCIe x1 is meant to be the successor to regular PCI slots, supporting devices like LAN cards, sound cards and modems. Motherboards that have two PCIe x16 slots are usually aimed at gamers, not folks like us.

In my opinion, PCIe x1 slots are useless at this time. I'm not sure why motherboard manufacturers insist on including them.

I am gonna push through with 3gb ram, but it sounds like I don't really need DDR2-800. Do DDR2-667 or (gasp) -533 or -400 still have the funky 1.8v JEDEC requirement, or can I find basically any kind of ram and slap it in? Looks like I can find 3gb of DDR2-667 for about $300 (2x 1gb and 2x 512mb) as opposed to nearing $600, and -533 and -400 for even cheaper.

You don't want to go below DDR2-667, because that will affect your CPU overclocking.

That WD Caviar pair looks pretty nice, although I can't imagine ever filling 250gb (or certainly not 500gb if I don't go with RAID 1). Although, heh, that phrase alone is reminiscent of DOS's design motto, "Who the hell's ever gonna use 512kb of RAM? No way that'll ever get filled, we'll limit the heap size there." Their price is pretty good for their size, though, comparing them to that 80gb drive.

The thing is, a 160GB drive costs $65. A 250GB drive costs $75. Because the price differences aren't that great, I'd suggest going with 250GB units. If you think a 90GB sacrifice is worth $10 (or $20 under RAID 1), go ahead and get the smaller drive.

Anyway, thanks a ton, this thread has already taught me more than I've learned reading reviews and such for the last week.

Any time.

 

[tophyr]

Sweet, thanks again. Sounds like DDR2-667 is the way to go, unless it too has the 1.8v requirement, if that then there's not actually very much of a price difference, that I'm seeing at least. How does overclocking and frequencies work? From everything I've read, the Core 2 Duo procs have a 1066mhz FSB. None of the boards support going over 1066mhz, though, from what I've seen, and even 800mhz ram certainly is slower than 1066. What am I missing?

You've definitely got me convinced on the HD's. I don't think I'll go with the extra 80gb one, but 2x 250gb drives for $140 is an excellent deal.

 

[hurtstotalktoyou]

Actually I'm not sure about the 1.8v requirement. Some boards seem to have it, others may not. The best thing to do would be either to play it safe, and stick with 1.8v DIMMs (as suggested above) or else pick a board, then ask people who own the same model about memory requirements. Lots of folks should have the Gigabyte GA-965P-DS3, so that board should be easy to investigate. The Asus P5B-E is less popular, and may require some serious digging.

Also keep in mind every motherboard has a memory compatibility list you can view on the manufacturer's website.

As for overclocking, the 1066 FSB is just the official maximum. Lots of boards go well over that. For example, my Epox EP-8KDA3J only officially supports a system bus of 800MHz, but it has BIOS options to push it all the way to 1600MHz if I desired. Moreover, I can asynchronously lower my system bus and raise my processor bus. The GA-965-DS3 and P5B-E have similar such features which will allow you to overclock the processor while keeping the rest of the system's components running at normal speeds.

When you get ready to finalize your purchase, I suggest making another thread where folks can help you check for compatibility issues, and maybe shave off a few dollars here and there. Good luck!