Tea Party Members are ignorant

[ZOOYUKA]

Doesn't everyone fudge the numbers? I think I heard Obama say today that we'll save a trillion dollars over the next decade if his health care plan passes.

Make believe enemies? Oh like Obama's nemesis the insurance companies?

How about Obama saying that insurance rates will drop 3,000% percent allowing employers to give raises? I don't know what is more disturbing, our president not realizing a 100% decrease equals zero or that there was a roomful of people cheering him on after he said this.

 

[Danube]

How about Obama saying that insurance rates will drop 3,000% percent allowing employers to give raises? I don't know what is more disturbing, our president not realizing a 100% decrease equals zero or that there was a roomful of people cheering him on after he said this.

I heard that - and I heard him say new reform will get people same insurance Congress has (said it on Fox too - sure to get caught). I heard him say insurance costs were rising "50 - 60 - 70%!".

Dude has lost it and is mental. Actually he lost it awhile ago but now he's really mental.

 

[Jhhnn]

Weird article. People are worried about their personal budgets which they know very well. Administering a quiz about federal statistics kind of misses the point that people are also being crushed by state, county and local taxes. They are getting whomped on from every side (and now many aren't even getting their tax returns). NY, NJ, CA - unions are bleeding states dry. The linked article is more heat than light.

Crushed! Exaggerate much? State and local taxes have gone up in recent years, simply because federal disbursements have dwindled in relative terms. Tax cut fever and military adventurism have seen to that. Unions? More like corrupt and inept administration, which is what happens when those who profess to hate govt are elected to run it.

You can claim all you want of a tea party member's ignorance, and you can claim all you want that they are stupid. But you're ignoring the obvious fact that your prized administration is running the white house like a bunch of criminals, and you're completely blind to it.
So, who's stupider?

Criminals? Like during the Reagan years, guys who had to be pardoned? Like Scooter Libby? like starting wars on false pretenses? Or promoting and enabling the greatest top-down looting spree since the Depression?

Tea partiers are just the most thoroughly conditioned and easily manipulated of the republican base, a cross between outrage addicts and angry denialists. If they really wanted to understand what's wrong with our society, they'd have to look at themselves and what they believe in most fervently and faithfully, not point fingers at everybody else...

They haven't figured out that they're being led and manipulated by the usual rightwing corporatists-

http://www.google.com/search?q=Amer...s=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

http://www.americansforprosperity.org/about

 

[her209]

I think the Tea Baggers' anger is misplaced but I don't expect them to have all the numbers.

 

[Lemon law]

Obama has not lost it, and over the past 20 years or so, our health care costs haven risen from 8% to some 22% of the economy. Therefore our present health care system is unsustainable. Nor has Obama been the first to propose such reforms.

But to go back to thread title, are we going to let a lot teabaggers who act like like children with free floating anxieties throwing temper tantrums stop all rational debate on health care reform, or can we find an honest way to compare the alternatives?

There is some historical reasons to decry the tyranny of the majority, but more historical examples to reject having a tyranny of the minority. A nation paralyzed into inaction at time of challenge always pays the price.

And parents who tolerate their children throwing temper tantrums, hurt both themselves and the child.

As a nation, we need to grow up and act like mature adults.

 

[paperfist]

Its true, and mocking them, while quite easy, isn't very constructive at all. But what's one to do? If you say the current economic woes are largely the result of unrestrained free-marketism, they'll call you a socialist. If you tell them socialized healthcare can drastically cut down costs, they'll call you a communist.

So then what was the point of posting about them and mocking them? You're not being very constructive

 

[paperfist]

How about Obama saying that insurance rates will drop 3,000% percent allowing employers to give raises? I don't know what is more disturbing, our president not realizing a 100% decrease equals zero or that there was a roomful of people cheering him on after he said this.

What's more disturbing is he is our president and allowed to lie, lie, lie while 150,000,000+ people have to sit here and take it helplessly as our elected officials put on a pony show. Sadly there will be now best of class winners.

There has to be some consequence for continually misrepresenting the people you represent. There is for everything else, but not politicians.

 

[Jhhnn]

I think the Tea Baggers' anger is misplaced but I don't expect them to have all the numbers.

The term you want is "Misdirected", using the standard tactics of the corporate right... sheep following a Judas goat.

 

[Fox5]

Teabaggers are the anti-intellectual wing of the anti-intellectual Republican party. Ignorance is a point of pride for them, because they think it makes them "simple folk" as opposed to "elitists" in academia.

Funny, most of the tea party people I know are college students, many involved in the sciences (though that isn't a guarantee of intelligence, but it makes them a lot more likely to be thinking, even if they're wrong).
That said, they seem to misunderstand what the tea party is about. What they want is libertarianism, but it's not what the tea party gives.

Funny though, in the 70's, college students with nothing better to do became hippies and protested the conservatives. Now they become tea partiers and protest the liberals.

 

[ShawnD1]

Funny, most of the tea party people I know are college students, many involved in the sciences (though that isn't a guarantee of intelligence, but it makes them a lot more likely to be thinking, even if they're wrong).
That said, they seem to misunderstand what the tea party is about. What they want is libertarianism, but it's not what the tea party gives.

Being a college student doesn't mean they are intelligent or informed in any way. Most of the politicians we think are retarded have at least a bachelor degree. Retarded doctors and engineers who make huge screw-ups are still doctors and engineers. Eduction doesn't mean smart.

Tea Baggers are the same people who were angry before being called Tea Baggers. Taxes are too high, cut spending, blah blah, everything is black and white. It's not a republican thing; it's a stupid people thing.

 

[Hacp]

Crushed! Exaggerate much? State and local taxes have gone up in recent years, simply because federal disbursements have dwindled in relative terms. Tax cut fever and military adventurism have seen to that. Unions? More like corrupt and inept administration, which is what happens when those who profess to hate govt are elected to run it.

No, state taxes have gone up because union salaries have gone up. Look where the money is going. Its going to union fat-cats. Remember, federal spending on social programs as a percentage of GDP has been going UP. not down.

Military spending has largley been flat, but I do agree that the wars in Afghanastan and Iraq have been a waste. George Bush went into Iraq without a set plan to siphon Iraq's oil reserves. Now, those reserves are being used by Iraqis to weaken the United States. Instead of spending Money in Iraq, we could have used that money to hire our nation's scientists and engineers to develop the next generation of weapons.

 

[HendrixFan]

40% doesn't seem like an unreasonable number if you include Federal, state, and local spending. I think the interns were asking the wrong questions here.

http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/#usgs302a

Confirmed.
Total spending 2010--------6.5 trillion.
GDP 2010 ----------- 14.8 trillion

Insane deficit spending means that we aren't being taxed anywhere near the amount of federal spending. Remember that at all three levels (federal, state and local) there is deficit spending going on, more in some areas than others of course.

 

[ShawnD1]

40% doesn't seem like an unreasonable number if you include Federal, state, and local spending. I think the interns were asking the wrong questions here.

http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/#usgs302a

Confirmed.
Total spending 2010--------6.5 trillion.
GDP 2010 ----------- 14.8 trillion

Not just based on that, but the teabaggers are probably thinking of ALL taxes, not just direct income tax. For example, my country has a national sales tax. It's not income tax, but it's still tax. There are taxes on your water, electricity, telephone, property, alcohol, tobacco, etc. I think it might have a been a John Stossel report that said something about 40% taxation in the US when all of this is included. I think the program was called John Stossel Goes To Washington. It's a good watch.

That being said, I don't mind being taxed up the ass as long as I get what I pay for. That means good roads, schools, healthcare, etc.

 

[Fern]

Re: The first question.

Fed gov percentage of GDP. The chart below shows federal government spending as a percentage of GDP is at (about) 47.5%. Frum is saying it's about 15%. That's a gap of about 35% and I don't know the explanation, so I checked anuual federal deficit (the federal government is spending more than just taxes, Frum is asking only about taxes)

http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/us_20th_century_chart.html

However, as seen below the annual federal deficit spending is only about 10%, far less than the 35% difference. Tea Party answer looks much more accurate than his assertion. His restricting the question to just income taxes is mostly just being 'tricky', what most people don't realize is that income taxes account for a little less than of the taxes we pay, another big chunk is hidden taxes. That probably explains the other 20%.

Edit: Frum should have included the data showing federal government spending at +40% of GDP if he wanted to look remotely fair.

http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/us_20th_century_chart.html

Re: Second question.

Tax on $50K. Jeebus man, if you're self employed that's 15.2% right off the top for self-employed taxes. They are calculated on your income tax return (Form 1040) and paid along with the rest of the income taxes.

$50k x 15.2% = $7,600. Then add to that income tax (in addition to SE tax) and the Tea Party answer seem pretty good, better than his actually.

I note his interns went to a tea party rally held during a workday (a Tuesday) so I'm guessing quite a few were either self-employed or retired. Anyway, trying to get people to guess the income tax on any income number much different from their own is gonna be ugly.


I'm calling major shens on this BS statement:

According to calculations by the Joint Committee on Taxation, a congressional committee, tax filers with adjusted gross incomes between $40,000 and $50,000 have an average federal income tax burden of just 1.7%. Those with adjusted gross incomes between $50,000 and $75,000 have an average burden of 4.2%.

Firstly, I don't think the numbers he quotes are even supportable in the data he linked (an "estimate" by the JCT). Secondly, that data is not designed for the purpose he's using it for (and mis-use of data is dishonest). Thirdly, I've been doing income taxes for about 30 years, AGI of $50K won't have a tax of 1.7% except in extreme and unusual circumstances.

Edit: Frum should have used historical IRS data, not an estimate from Congress.

Third question

Are federal taxes less this year? No. Most people don't consider the one-off stim check for a few hundred bucks a 'tax cut'. Withholding is higher this year than last, and we have new/higher federal taxes like the ciggarette tax. The Tea Party answer ain't bad.

Cliffs: Frum's stretching facts to the point of BS. The Tea party answers are better than his. I'd just say he's misinformed, but he's doing this for political points so it's dishonest. He's wrong.

Fern

 

[umbrella39]

Tea partiers are just the most thoroughly conditioned and easily manipulated of the republican base, a cross between outrage addicts and angry denialists. If they really wanted to understand what's wrong with our society, they'd have to look at themselves and what they believe in most fervently and faithfully, not point fingers at everybody else...

QFabsoluteT

 

[Lemon law]

Some tea bagger apologists point out that some members are sane, mature, and belong in politics.

Sadly, there are incidents like this that cast the apologists in some doubt.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/mcclatchy/20100320/pl_mcclatchy/3457015

When it comes to how low can you go, too many tea baggers knows no shame.

All rational Americans should eagerly await an apology from the tea bag leadership, will it ever come?

That is the acid test.

 

[Patranus]

Some tea bagger apologists point out that some members are sane, mature, and belong in politics.

Sadly, there are incidents like this that cast the apologists in some doubt.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/mcclatchy/20100320/pl_mcclatchy/3457015

When it comes to how low can you go, too many tea baggers knows no shame.

All rational Americans should eagerly await an apology from the tea bag leadership, will it ever come?

That is the acid test.

Where exactly is the PROOF that this event actually happened and that the person who may or may not have said those things was actually affiliated with the "tea party" protestors?

Video?

With all of the reporters on Capital Hill today it is highly unlikely that a reporter wouldn't have been there to see the incident.

Then again, with what we have seen with the SEIU and the "progressives", they will do anything to discredit the "tea party" movement.

If a video surfaces and it is actually true then it is despicable.

 

[Danube]

I saw it was FAKE as soon as I read about it. NO charges were pressed and you know they would have been if it was a real tea party member. This kind of agitprop is typical of unions and Obama style street tactics . Recall a Dem staffer got busted pretending to be protester with Obama as Hitler signs:

http://theblogprof.blogspot.com/2009/08/busted-obama-as-hitler-poster-was.html

Obams, SEIU etc knew protest were coming and they staged this fake crap to steal news focus.