Taxpayers to lose more than expected on gm bailout.

Anarchist420

Diamond Member
Feb 13, 2010
8,645
0
76
www.facebook.com
Here.

I knew it was bad and I actually thought it was worse, but since so many people felt the tax payer gained, I felt this was newsworthy.

I first saw it on dr. Fleming's Facebook page and although he often posts links to bogus information, I had been waiting for the anti-bailout people (which includes myself but not p ryan) to be vindicated.
 

Matt1970

Lifer
Mar 19, 2007
12,320
3
0
You are shocked? Instead of letting a Bankruptcy court decide how better to re-organize GM, which they do every day, our President decided to take a stab at it. Lets close over 1000 dealerships and push an unpopular electric car.

Just one more reason why the Government shouldn't be running businesses.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,591
5
0
You are shocked? Instead of letting a Bankruptcy court decide how better to re-organize GM, which they do every day, our President decided to take a stab at it. Lets close over 1000 dealerships (that did not contribute to the party) and push an unpopular electric car.

Just one more reason why the Government shouldn't be running businesses.

Bolded for clarification
 

Capt Caveman

Lifer
Jan 30, 2005
34,547
651
126
You are shocked? Instead of letting a Bankruptcy court decide how better to re-organize GM, which they do every day, our President decided to take a stab at it. Lets close over 1000 dealerships and push an unpopular electric car.

Just one more reason why the Government shouldn't be running businesses.

That damn President Bush.

Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney has decried the losses on the auto bailout and insisted that forcing GM and Chrysler Group LLC to go through bankruptcy first would have saved taxpayers money.

But President George W. Bush — who gave the automakers and their finance arms about $25 billion in his final weeks in office in bailout funds — said there wasn't time.
 

MooseNSquirrel

Platinum Member
Feb 26, 2009
2,587
318
126
."At the forefront of my mind are jobs in Southern Wisconsin and the retiree commitments to workers that could be placed in jeopardy under certain bankruptcy scenarios," he said in supporting the auto bailout in December 2008. "To be clear, this bill is not intended to save the American auto industry and makes no guarantees that layoffs in this industry will end. Congress must stop overselling what it can do. At the very least, I am hopeful that by extending these loans to the American auto manufacturers, bankruptcy will be avoided in the near term and protections for retirees will remain intact."

Many people thought avoiding bankrupcy was the sane way to go.
 

MooseNSquirrel

Platinum Member
Feb 26, 2009
2,587
318
126
You are shocked? Instead of letting a Bankruptcy court decide how better to re-organize GM, which they do every day, our President decided to take a stab at it. Lets close over 1000 dealerships and push an unpopular electric car.

Just one more reason why the Government shouldn't be running businesses.

GM was putting big hopes on the VOlt before the Government ever got involved.

But nothing satisfies pre-conceived biases like revisionist history.
 

mshan

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2004
7,868
0
71
Morningstar's Take GM

Price 07-09-2012 Fair Value Estimate Uncertainty
20.22 USD 48.00 USD High
Consider Buy Consider Sell Economic Moat
28.80 USD 74.40 USD None
Stewardship Rating
Standard




Bulls Say

&#8226; GM's break-even point is drastically lower than it was under the old GM. The company's earnings should grow rapidly as U.S. vehicle sales bounce back from the 2009 low.

&#8226; The VEBA saves GM billions of dollars in cash every year, and the new UAW contract gives GM labor cost stability through at least September 2015.

&#8226; New models such as Buick's LaCrosse and Regal and the Chevrolet Cruze have been very successful. GM can charge thousands of dollars more per vehicle in certain segments. Higher prices with fewer incentive dollars allow GM to get more margin per vehicle, which helps mitigate the severe decline in light-vehicle sales.

&#8226; Models like Chevrolet's Malibu, Cruze, and Sonic show that GM can make a vehicle to compete directly with the models produced by Japanese and European automakers. GM already is a top player in critical emerging markets such as Brazil and China. It sells nearly 70% of its vehicles outside North America.




Bears Say

&#8226; The cadence of a recovery in global vehicle demand is very uncertain.

&#8226; Auto stocks are often sold off severely because of macroeconomic concerns--even if the bottom-up story looks attractive.

&#8226; The U.S. auto market is becoming more crowded each year. Hyundai and Volkswagen are likely to take more share over time from existing players such as GM.

&#8226; Some American consumers will never buy another GM vehicle because of their anger over GM's receiving taxpayer loans.

&#8226; GM's offerings in the key U.S. full-size sedan and pickup markets are old, although new models will arrive in 2013.
Thesis 07/09/12

Although the "Government Motors" stigma is likely to hang over General Motors Company for several years, we think GM's car models are of the best quality and design in decades. The company is already a leader in truck models, so a fully competitive lineup combined with a much smaller cost base leads us to think that GM will be printing money as vehicle demand recovers.

We think GM's earnings potential is excellent because it finally has a healthy North American unit and can focus its U.S. marketing efforts on just four brands instead of eight. The most critical cost-saving measure was setting up a voluntary employees' beneficiary association (VEBA) for the retiree health-care costs of the United Auto Workers. This move saves GM about $3 billion a year; other benefit concessions and plant closings have drastically lowered GM North America's break-even point to U.S. industry sales of about 10.5 million vehicles, assuming 18%-19% share. The actual point varies based on mix and incentive levels. We think the normative demand for U.S. light vehicles is about 16.1 million-17.3 million units, so we expect GM to report excellent earnings growth as vehicle demand comes back during the next few years.

Dramatically better pricing has helped GM to be profitable at volume levels that would have meant billions in losses a few years ago. The Buick LaCrosse, for example, was recently selling for about $7,800 more per unit than in 2009. Simply put, GM makes products for which consumers are willing to pay more than in the past. GM no longer has to overproduce in an attempt to cover high labor costs and then dump cars into rental fleets (which hurts residual values). It now operates in a demand-pull model where it can produce only to meet demand and is structured to break even at the bottom of an economic cycle.

We think the largest threat to profitability is Europe, which has been losing money for a long time. Previous restructuring moves, such as closing the Antwerp plant and buyouts, have not been enough, so GM announced an alliance with struggling French automaker Peugeot in March (GM now owns 7% of Peugeot). The two firms created a purchasing venture with $125 billion in annual buying power. Although the alliance will bring GM more scale in Europe via purchasing and shared vehicle parts and platforms, management acknowledges that additional European restructuring is needed. Capacity must be better utilized or reduced, but union issues make plant closures nearly impossible. We expect GM Europe to remain unprofitable for at least a few more years.

GM stockholders have to consider politics as long as the U.S. Treasury, Canadian and Ontario governments, and the VEBA own about 51% of the actual shares outstanding. We think this ownership will be an overhang on the stock for some time, since the market is afraid that the U.S. Treasury will quickly dump more than 500 million shares on the market. We also expect the VEBA to reduce its stake over time since it needs to monetize its holdings to pay retiree health-care claims. Although these concerns are valid, we see them as short-term issues that will be resolved. We think a patient GM shareholder eventually will be rewarded, as the company is about to see the upside to having a high degree of operating leverage.
"Risk

The biggest risk to GM would be a scenario where too many Americans refuse to buy its vehicles because of animosity over the taxpayer-financed bailout and the government's continued ownership of the company. If sales were to decline for many years, GM probably would go bankrupt. We consider the likelihood of this scenario occurring to be nearly zero. GM can break even at near-depression-like sales volume, and it is selling more units in the U.S. with four brands than old GM did with eight brands. Another important risk is GM's underfunded pension. The plan was underfunded by $25.4 billion as of year-end 2011. In late 2010, GM contributed $4 billion in cash to the pension and another $2.2 billion in GM common stock in January 2011. Management does not expect to be forced to make a material contribution through 2014 following the $6.2 billion voluntary contribution, but that assertion is only an estimate. U.S. gas prices going well over $4 a gallon is also a risk, since GM is unveiling a new generation of full-size pickup trucks (its most profitable vehicles) in 2013."
http://analysis.morningstar.com/analystreport/ar.aspx?t=GM&region=USA&culture=en-US (you have to have premium membership to read complete report; I just provide link here so you know where the info is coming from)
 
Last edited:

OutHouse

Lifer
Jun 5, 2000
36,413
616
126
GM has like 10 plants in China.... the american tax payer bails them out and they build in a communist country. WOOT!!! thats awesome.
 

rudder

Lifer
Nov 9, 2000
19,441
85
91
That damn President Bush.

Then why is obama running around the U.S. claiming he saved the U.S. auto industry. Maybe Mitt Romney should be saying the republicans did that.

At any rate... as it stands a majority of the same problems plague GM. It will be only a matter of time before they need to be bailed out again.
 

Anarchist420

Diamond Member
Feb 13, 2010
8,645
0
76
www.facebook.com
@ rudder: yes I know... even worse, the same thing goes for the banks. It wouldve been much less painful if they had all just been allowed to fail. The bailout of the banks and of gm will totally have been in vain within the next 3 years.

Basically all it did was create more debt for the tax payer, masked the problem of having fiat currency and central banking, and rewarded unethical businesses for being deemed too big to fail... and that was all just to settle for 8% unemployment. We could have had very low unemployment right now with high wages if the govt wasn't borrowing so damn much and if the damn banks had just been allowed to fail. Eventually, they will just have to fail and it is going to be a lot more painful than it would've been a few years ago.
 

Spungo

Diamond Member
Jul 22, 2012
3,217
2
81
GM was putting big hopes on the VOlt before the Government ever got involved.

But nothing satisfies pre-conceived biases like revisionist history.
They probably thought the Volt was stupid and built it anyway because they thought people wanted it. The Prius is stupid too and look how well that thing sells.
 

conehead433

Diamond Member
Dec 4, 2002
5,566
890
126
They probably thought the Volt was stupid and built it anyway because they thought people wanted it. The Prius is stupid too and look how well that thing sells.

It wasn't that the Volt isn't a good car; GM either didn't do a good job controlling production costs, or they just priced the car way too high. A Prius (depending on the model) sells for about $10K less than the Volt.
 

Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
18,811
197
106
GM has like 10 plants in China.... the american tax payer bails them out and they build in a communist country. WOOT!!! thats awesome.

Yep.

We better hope we never go to war with china. They have all the factories they need to mow us down.
 

conehead433

Diamond Member
Dec 4, 2002
5,566
890
126
Tricky thing determining the actual loss using current stock prices. I know that the stock price sets an Actual Cash Value of the company if it were sold today, but that doesn't mean that value is set in stone. I wonder how much taxpayers lost on the cash for clunkers?
 

mshan

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2004
7,868
0
71
Major exports to Europe are 1) Boeing aircraft (long-term fixed contracts) and 2) agricultural products.

Major export to China is 1) soybeans. (I heard comment on tv that if we don't get rain by September, then soybean crop is at risk, just like corn is now)


Perhaps, just perhaps, our economy may be entering a phase where it is better for main street, while stock market and large multi-nationals stagnant or even decline (multi-nationals may sell a lot in Europe, but Morningstar economist Bob Johnson said those products are made in Asia).

If domestic production for domestic consumption is still profitable, hopefully it will hold up better than you might expect if you only see cursory headlines about how this or that big multi-nationals is losing tons of money in European or Chinese markets. IIRC, about 70% of our economy is consumer consumption, and a large chunk of that is services, not actual products.
 
Last edited:

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,145
10
81
That damn President Bush.

yeap. Anyone that blames just Obama on this is a hack. You would think people would wake up and start to understand the president is nothing more then a puppet. The goverment does not care about the people. its all about who is willing to give them money to get re-elected.

The corporations and unions have such a huge say its insane. it does not matter what party is in power. both do the same.

When you have corporations makeing laws there is something wrong.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,265
126
Of course no one takes into account lost wages, unemployment benefits, and that GM's revenue in 2011 was over 105 billion. It costs the taxpayers money to save GM but considering everything it's hard to imagine the ultimate price would not be higher if it collapsed. This is a real company doing fairly well making real things for the global market. Heaven knows we could use more of that.
 

Capt Caveman

Lifer
Jan 30, 2005
34,547
651
126
GM has like 10 plants in China.... the american tax payer bails them out and they build in a communist country. WOOT!!! thats awesome.

Those plants in Asia support the Asian market. Kind of like how Asian car companies have plants in the US.

In 2010, General Motors ranked second on the list with 8.5 million units produced globally. In 2011, GM returned to the first place with 9.025 million units sold worldwide, corresponding to 11.9% market share of the global motor vehicle industry. The top two markets in 2011 were the United States, with 2,503,820 vehicles sold, and China, with 2,547,203 units. The Chevrolet brand was the main contributor to GM performance, with 4.76 million vehicles sold around the world in 2011, a global sales record.
 

Spungo

Diamond Member
Jul 22, 2012
3,217
2
81
It wasn't that the Volt isn't a good car; GM either didn't do a good job controlling production costs, or they just priced the car way too high. A Prius (depending on the model) sells for about $10K less than the Volt.
The same could be said about the Prius. It's marginally better than a Toyota Yaris or a Toyota Corolla but it costs $5k more. This is why the Corolla still destroys the Prius in sales. It simply doesn't make sense to buy a Prius unless you are buying it to show how green you are. Car companies tried making hybrids that look like normal cars and they didn't sell worth crap. People only buy them to be noticed. Gasoline in Europe is twice as expensive as it is hear and even they don't want the Prius.
 
Jul 10, 2007
12,050
3
0
The same could be said about the Prius. It's marginally better than a Toyota Yaris or a Toyota Corolla but it costs $5k more. This is why the Corolla still destroys the Prius in sales. It simply doesn't make sense to buy a Prius unless you are buying it to show how green you are. Car companies tried making hybrids that look like normal cars and they didn't sell worth crap. People only buy them to be noticed. Gasoline in Europe is twice as expensive as it is hear and even they don't want the Prius.

False. The Prius is classified as a mid size car which means it competes with the camry which is what makes the Prius a smarter buy.
Taking into account the tech included in the Prius,it is not just marginally better than the corolla. It is loads better all while getting better mpg.