Taxes (stupid question)

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
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U.S. Constitution: Sixteenth Amendment

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.


So how on earth did states, counties, cities, departments of fish and games et ctec etc accross the country get this right? I read congress and that's all.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
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Originally posted by: Zebo
U.S. Constitution: Sixteenth Amendment

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.


So how on earth did states, counties, cities, departments of fish and games et ctec etc accross the country get this right? I read congress and that's all.


the states had the power consistant with the C I think at least it didn't restrict as I read it (the fed govt had to ammend to comply with article 1 re direct..)
see below
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
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That's what I tought, the tenth gave em' it and the always had it. Thanks:)
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
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16th annotation

The ratification of this Amendment was the direct consequence of the Court's decision in 1895 in Pollock v. Farmers' Loan & Trust Co., 1 whereby the attempt of Congress the previous year to tax incomes uniformly throughout the United States 2 was held by a divided court to be unconstitutional. A tax on incomes derived from property, 3 the Court declared, was a ''direct tax'' which Congress under the terms of Article I, Sec. 2, and Sec. 9, could impose only by the rule of apportionment according to population, although scarcely fifteen years prior the Justices had unanimously sustained 4 the collection of a similar tax during the Civil War, 5 the only other occasion preceding the Sixteenth Amendment in which Congress had ventured to utilize this method of raising revenue. 6


During the interim between the Pollock decision in 1895 and the ratification of the Sixteenth Amendment in 1913, the Court gave evidence of a greater awareness of the dangerous consequences to national solvency which that holding threatened, and partially circumvented the threat, either by taking refuge in redefinitions of ''direct tax'' or, and more especially, by emphasizing, virtually to the exclusion of the former, the history of excise taxation. Thus, in a series of cases, notably Nicol v. Ames, 7 Knowlton v. Moore, 8 and Patton v. Brady, 9 the Court held the following taxes to have been levied merely upon one of the ''incidents of ownership'' and hence to be excises: a tax which involved affixing revenue stamps to memoranda evidencing the sale of merchandise on commodity exchanges, an inheritance tax, and a war revenue tax upon tobacco on which the hitherto imposed excise tax had already been paid and which was held by the manufacturer for resale.


Because of such endeavors the Court thus found it possible to sustain a corporate income tax as an excise ''measured by income'' on the privilege of doing business in corporate form. 10 The adoption of the Sixteenth Amendment, however, put an end to speculation whether the Court, unaided by constitutional amendment, would persist along these lines of construction until it had reversed its holding in the Pollock case. Indeed, in its initial appraisal 11 of the Amendment it classified income taxes as being inherently ''indirect.'' ''[T]he command of the amendment that all income taxes shall not be subject to apportionment by a consideration of the sources from which the taxed income may be derived, forbids the application to such taxes of the rule applied in the Pollock case by which alone such taxes were removed from the great class of excises, duties, and imports subject to the rule of uniformity and were placed under the other or direct class.'' 12 ''[T]he Sixteenth Amendment conferred no new power of taxation but simply prohibited the previous complete and plenary power of income taxation possessed by Congress from the beginning from being taken out of the category of indirect taxation to which it inherently belonged.'' 13

 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
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So how on earth did states, counties, cities, departments of fish and games et ctec etc accross the country get this right? I read congress and that's all.
The US Constitution created the US government and governs the US government. States do not derive powers from a document which doesn't apply to them except where it expressly speaks of the states.

Even if the 10th amendment wasn't ratified, the founding principles of federalism clearly admit of a quasi-sovereign authority of the states to govern themselves - deriving their powers from themselves - with the federal government serving chiefly to organize and unify them for the common good. What concerned the state would be the state's province, what concerned the several states would be federal province.

Of course all that history has been rewritten to justify enormous federal power grabs, but I'm feeling especially lazy tonight so I would just as soon not get into that.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
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Originally posted by: tcsenter
So how on earth did states, counties, cities, departments of fish and games et ctec etc accross the country get this right? I read congress and that's all.
The US Constitution created the US government and governs the US government. States do not derive powers from a document which doesn't apply to them except where it expressly speaks of the states.

Even if the 10th amendment wasn't ratified, the founding principles of federalism clearly admit of a quasi-sovereign authority of the states to govern themselves - deriving their powers from themselves - with the federal government serving chiefly to organize and unify them for the common good. What concerned the state would be the state's province, what concerned the several states would be federal province.

Of course all that history has been rewritten to justify enormous federal power grabs, but I'm feeling especially lazy tonight so I would just as soon not get into that.

I had a Constitution Prof... (awhile ago) who argued Article 1 gave direct tax revenue generation ONLY to the feds based on apportionment... which he interpreted to also mean Income tax based on an apportionment.

" Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons."

I disagreed in my term paper, arguing that the states derived their power through the 10th Amm. as well as Article 1 sec 2 deals with property tax based on holdings and not income derived from it.. (cotton sales, corn and the like). He passed the paper without comment. Why is my condensed argument invalid?
 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
18,637
398
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I disagreed in my term paper, arguing that the states derived their power through the 10th Amm. as well as Article 1 sec 2 deals with property tax based on holdings and not income derived from it.. (cotton sales, corn and the like). He passed the paper without comment. Why is my condensed argument invalid?
The states do not derive their powers from the federal constitution, rather its the other way around. The 10th Amendment doesn't 'empower' the states, it merely restricts the federal government from intruding on powers or rights which are the states.

The philosophy is essentially this: It is the states who 'ordained' a federal constitution and government to serve them (the common good), the federal constitution did not 'authorize' the several states. Or stated in another way, the federal government derives its powers from the consent of the states and the people where powers and rights naturally reside.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
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Originally posted by: tcsenter
I disagreed in my term paper, arguing that the states derived their power through the 10th Amm. as well as Article 1 sec 2 deals with property tax based on holdings and not income derived from it.. (cotton sales, corn and the like). He passed the paper without comment. Why is my condensed argument invalid?
The states do not derive their powers from the federal constitution, rather its the other way around. The 10th Amendment doesn't 'empower' the states, it merely restricts the federal government from intruding on powers or rights which are the states.

The philosophy is essentially this: It is the states who 'ordained' a federal constitution and government to serve them (the common good), the federal constitution did not 'authorize' the several states. Or stated in another way, the federal government derives its powers from the consent of the states and the people where powers and rights naturally reside.

His argument was that the civil war tax issue provided the test for the power of the central govt to tax on income. Giving the Feds the right. And thereby, allowing the states to also tax accordingly. My point is, I guess, that: Article 1, sec 2 does give the feds direct but only apportionable tax authority and the states by not empowering the feds in the"C" all other rights (re:this) as defined in the 10th.
I don't think I'm arguing that the states didn't empower the Hamilton Govt. but, rather, what Art 1 Sec 2 means..

edit: heck even the USSC were divided on Pollock

 

zephyrprime

Diamond Member
Feb 18, 2001
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So how on earth did states, counties, cities, departments of fish and games et ctec etc accross the country get this right? I read congress and that's all.
Easy. They've always had that right and that right is prior to the Federal Constitution. They don't need to get the right to tax from the Fed govt. They have it intrinsically.
Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.