Taxes, government revenue or social engineering?

[etech]

When did collecting taxes become a method for social engineering? If you do the right thing according to the party in power you get a tax cut. That is not right and is dangerous. The tax system should only be used to generate the necessary revenue for the government, not for trying to make you do what they want you to do.

The progessive tax code is a method of redistribution of wealth from those that have earned it to those that havn't. I believe a flat tax would be the most fair and equitable solution.

flat tax
"The U.S. income tax code is a monument to unnecessary waste. The income tax system is so complex, the IRS publishes 480 tax forms and 280 forms to explain the 480 forms. The IRS sends out eight billion pages of forms and instructions each year which, if laid end to end, would circle the earth 28 times. Nearly 300,000 trees are cut down each year to produce the paper on which IRS forms and instructions are printed."
Heavy Taxes. The American people are beleaguered by the highest tax burden in American history. Taxes represent a larger share of the U.S. economy than ever before. As the nearby chart shows, the typical American family now pays more in taxes than it spends on food, clothing, transportation and shelter combined.
Undermines Good Government. The tax code does more than complicate people's lives during tax season and reduce living standards. It pollutes Washington's political culture. As special-interest provisions have been added to the tax code, Washington's lobbying industry has flourished. The accompanying chart shows how the growth of the lobbying industry has coincided with the increased number of words (and special-interest provisions) in the tax code.

Under which presidential candidate do you think we have more of a chance of getting closer to a flat tax system?

 

[Total Refected Power]

Neither candidate. They will only tinker with the tax system.

 

[woodie1]

I don't htink any of them are for a flat tax. Algore is for social engineering, his party usually is ( remember LBJ). GW thinks we can run our own lives, thank you very much.

 

[JellyBaby]

Neither major party candidate. If the average overall tax burden is now 40%, under Shrub it may become 39%, under Bore it will become 41%+. You'd need to look toward the libertarians or reform party.

 

[sandorski]

"Social engineering" is only a new fangled term of something that has always existed. Don't get all flustered, paranoid about commies, or alarmist! Take a valium and realize that you are just coming to know reality!

There are good reasons why a government would try and influence it's nations citizenry. The main purpose for government is the preservation of the nation. This involves a few things:

1) A government needs to have a stable and strong economy. This not only provides benefits to the citizenry, but is necessary for defense. In times of war, it is often the nation with the best economy that wins. One reason for this is that a strong economy can more easily withstand a prolonged conflict(US vs USSR as an example). Secondly, a strong economy helps in the production of military equipment, both in quantity and in developement of newer better equipment(US civil war North vs South)

2) A government needs to have Social Security(not the retirement plan but a state of Social Peace). Without Social Security, a society is at risk of imploding. This part of a governments duty is the hardest for right wing conservatives to accept. The reason for this is that sometimes a government must put the needs of a minority over the wants of the majority. Hence you have Affirmative Action(as well as other things such as welfare, Unemployment, Medical, etc) which attempts(ed) to meet the needs of African Americans, before a sense of injustice becomes a form of social instability.

3) Somewhat relating to point 2, a government needs to have an economically secure citizenry. This is why tax breaks are given to certain investments(401k and others). The benefits of which are that the government and charities will be better able to handle the load. Because of the low rate of savings in the US(also in much of the rest of the West), I'd expect increase tweaking of tax codes to "encourage" people to save more.

Perhaps someone else can elaborate on other reasons why a government would tinker with taxes/tax breaks as a legitimate and wise policy. Yes, Social Engineering is a part of the tax system, but that IMO is bad only if one is a short sighted conservative.

 

[etech]

Sandorski, we will have to agree to disagree. The tax system is for collecting revenue. If the government "needs" to do social engineering their are other avenues that it can take to do so.
We also disagree in that I have more faith in the people of America then you apparently do. I also have less faith that the govenment should be telling its citizens what to do.
The low rate of saving is a result of the US becoming more and more of a Welfare State. If govenment is going to become the "mommy and daddy" of its citizens and take care of them from cradle to grave what incentive is there for them to save and take care of themselves? Of course sometime in the future mommy and daddy is going to go broke. That is the danger to watch out for.

Look at the effects if has caused.
A tax code that not even different "experts" at the IRS can give the same answer to the same question.
Millions of lost productivity hours and dollars to the United States caused by individuals and companies trying to decypher the codes.
Entire businesses created for the sole purpose of filling out the tax codes.

"But the administrative costs of the tax system far exceed those borne directly by the IRS. Each year Americans devote 5.4 billion hours complying with the tax code, which is more time than it takes to build every car, truck and van produced in the United States. The cost of complying with the tax system totals about $200 billion annually, or $700 for every man, woman and child in America."

flat tax

 

[Tripleshot]

I don't think the tax system is the target. The income tax may be what Etech is refering to as I'm sure they realize taxes pay for the commonwealth of the country,provide for our national defense,and protect us from the harm we may cause ourselves if no other oversight is adopted.If that is constued as social engeneering and is a bad thing,then I am damn happy I'm an American and not a citizen of Angola or Costa Rica or Peru.

If the American public had any inkling of the layer upon layer upon layer of tax that we pay for,from the level of the raw material and its distribution to its production to its market, we'ld sh!t bricks. It is an awsome amount of taxes at every step of the way.

If anything,the public should pay more attention to what those pork barral pet projects that both parties cram into legislation that filters through congress every budget(and what stops good legislation like marriage penalty and estate taxes cold ). I seem to remember a real boondoggle. What state got a 52 mile diameter concrete bunker donut for a "super colllider" based on nebulas science at best? Texas? Phil Graham? Bush?

 

[etech]

Tripleshot, you don't want to start on which party has gotten more pork. I assure you of that.

The point of this thread is taxes. The waste, unfairness,and possibilites of corruption of the current system.

Waste, already shown.
Unfairness, should be obvious

Corruption, how many loopholes are in the current tax code? How many lobbiests are earning and spending millions of dollars to get their company or backers special tax loopholes. How many politicians are promising a special tax cut to get elected.

How to fix it? Flat or at the minimum flatter tax code.

 

[Blackhawk2]

Don't let them take your guns away, that is the first/last step towards communsm or a dictatorshp. When the people cannot fight back they are slaves. Power to the people! Gov't is dangerous, they are theives that protect you from other theives but first and formost, they are theives! Never forget that, you cannot trust them to do anything right because they will always stab you in the back. Their only interest is themselves(aka natinl securty, FBx, CIx, IRx ect ect ect->ask yourself why they have so many agencies looking after their interests?), take heed and prepare yourself for what is to come. The US will not fall from an enmy outside but from an enmy within->the Gov't! Gov't is a cancer it keeps growing and growing and growing. We have a problem and the first three letters start with Gov. Get a clue and look at the past 50 years to see how much gov't has increased in size and how it continues to grow, it will grow to the point where it will consume everything (aka communism/dictatorships).

 

[Tripleshot]

etech
Nope,I could only think of that damn concrete donut in the middle of Texas somewhere. I agree. both parties are guilty.

I'm for a flat tax. I just don't think we will ever see it in our life times. It's not on the table in this election.

At least if you knew going in what your income and tax was going to be,you could plan accordingly and budget according to the real money you would keep. As it is now,You need a tax lawyer to file if you make any money at all. I wouldn't give youspit for H&R block. I use a tax program though that helps in most normal filing chores.

 

[etech]

The thing that really bothers me is the wasted productivity. The millions of man hours that are spent in a completely useless endeavor. The millions of dollars that are spent on tax programs when it not necessary. I'd like to see 90% of the tax accountants put to some useful work instead of filling out forms to feed the government.

on pork, look up Richard Byrd of West Virginia sometime. FBI fingerprint center, highways, some Applacian project etc.

 

[Tripleshot]

>>FBI fingerprint center, highways<<

These are bad things? Only if you are a criminal on horseback.LOL


>>I'd like to see 90% of the tax accountants put to some useful work ....<<


Yes,how about fodder for reef building off the California coast?


Ooo oooo. That reminded me. What about the waste of taking care of those mothballed ships up in new england. Whats up with that?

We do do some stupid things with our tax money.But it alll is done in some senators back yard. Time to take a look at legislators. They are the ones that spend and appropriate.(Legaleeze for steal,rape,pilage,plunder)

Damn Etech,your wearing off on me.

 

[etech]

The tax LAWYERS will be used to build the reef, the tax accountants can be used to build the roads in W. Virginia for Byrd