Taming the System -- SecDef Gates and Pentagon acquisitions

AndrewR

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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Time
February 23, 2009


Taming The System

[iBy Mark Thompson[/i]

If you are a firm believer in the war in Afghanistan, Defense Secretary Robert Gates' grim assessment last month of what lies in store for the U.S. might have made you shudder. "If we set ourselves the objective of creating some sort of Central Asian Valhalla over there, we will lose, because nobody in the world has that kind of time, patience and money, to be honest," he said.

But if you are a defense contractor who has enjoyed a decade of bottomless Pentagon funding, it was Gates' comments about a struggle much closer to home that are keeping you up at night. "The spigot of defense spending that opened on 9/11 is closing," he said. "With two major campaigns ongoing, the economic crisis and resulting budget pressures will force hard choices on this department."

Gates, the U.S.'s 22nd Defense Secretary, has declared a low-key war against the military services and the way they develop and buy the weapons they use to defend the nation. Up until now, he has done that mostly by jawboning: The U.S. can't "eliminate national-security risks through higher defense budgets, to do everything and buy everything," Gates says in the latest issue of Foreign Affairs. That futile quest has led to weapons that "have grown ever more baroque, have become ever more costly, are taking longer to build and are being fielded in ever dwindling quantities."

But his war of words is about to become very real. As he prepares a budget for next year, Gates must decide the fate of a number of fantastically expensive weapons programs the military services say they need. He can't fund them all--and might be wise to take a knife to them all. In this, Gates has little choice: the military's annual budget has finished growing, and the billions it once imagined it might spend on future weapons have evaporated. So cuts--and big ones--are coming, and Gates will be the man who makes them.

Though Gates was hired by George W. Bush to clean up the mismanaged wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, Gates' greatest legacy may come in what he calls a "strategic reshaping" that better outfits the U.S. military to wage coming wars. Future weapons buys must "be driven more by the actual capabilities of potential adversaries," Gates told Congress a few weeks ago, "and less by what is technologically feasible given unlimited time and resources." Pentagon procurement, he said, is plagued by a "risk-averse culture, a litigious process, parochial interests, excessive and changing requirements, budget churn and instability and sometimes adversarial relationships within the Department of Defense."

Gates, 65, speaks with a flat Kansas twang that masks the edge he honed during a 26-year career at the CIA, where he was director during Bush 41's presidency. Following Bill Clinton's election in 1992, Gates left the capital for a lakeside home near Seattle, wrote a book and sat on corporate boards before moving to Texas, where he served at Texas A&M University for seven years, the last four as its president. "An obstinate bureaucracy can be a formidable antagonist," Gates said of the Pentagon in From the Shadows (1996), his memoir, "especially when giving up money is involved." Attempting to change the Pentagon has defeated nearly every one of Gates' predecessors. If he prevails, he will have done more to transform the Pentagon than anything his immediate predecessor, Donald Rumsfeld, a self-proclaimed king of transformation, was able to accomplish. "I have no intention," Gates said late last year, "of being a caretaker Secretary."

In the coming days, Gates will have to decide what to do about countless weapons programs. Here are the three that matter most.

The Air Force

Gates' first showdown looms with a $350 million--a--pop fighter jet. He has to decide by March 1 whether to add more F-22 Raptor fighters to the 183 purchased by the Bush Administration. For years, the Air Force has wanted to double the fleet, while Gates has made clear that he thinks 183 is sufficient. A month ago, some Air Force officials were saying privately that maybe 60 more F-22s would suffice. The Pentagon's acquisition boss, John Young, recently detailed why more F-22s might be a poor investment. The F-22s that exist are ready to fly only 62% of the time and haven't met most of their performance goals. "The airplane is proving very expensive to operate, not seeing the mission-capable rates we expected, and it's complex to maintain," Young said. Besides, he added, the Air Force plans on spending $8 billion to upgrade most of the F-22s it already has.

Gates has tangled with the Air Force before. Shortly after arriving at the Pentagon in late 2006, he pushed to boost production of unmanned aircraft for use in intelligence work, only to run into the Air Force's long-standing love of manned fighters. But Gates' hunch was vindicated in Afghanistan and Iraq, where cheaper, unmanned Predator and Reaper drones have been flying around the clock but expensive F-22s have yet to appear. Air Force Major General Charles Dunlap Jr. has written that drones are "game-changing" because of their unprecedented ability to loiter for hours, waiting for the enemy to reveal himself--and then kill him with their weapons. And yet Dunlap's service remains wedded to white scarves, cockpits and all their inherent limitations.

Indeed, it is only a matter of time before combat pilots, like biplanes, become obsolete. Tail-mounted GPS kits have given even dumb bombs amazing accuracy once they are pushed out the door of a lumbering cargo plane. Missiles launched from ships or subs have further minimized the need for penetrating warplanes. Meanwhile, much of the Raptor's sky-high price--and that of accompanying jammer planes and rescue helicopters--is driven by the need to get the pilot into harm's way and then safely out. Even worse, while the Air Force wants more fighters from a bygone era, it has been underbuying the drones that will rule the skies in the future. Though the number of unmanned aircraft is soaring, it hasn't kept pace with the demand in Afghanistan and Iraq, where requirements for full-motion video are growing 300% annually. For every F-22 that isn't bought, the Air Force could add about a dozen desperately needed drones to its fleet.

The Navy

Gates hasn't torpedoed anything that belongs to the Navy--yet. But its $100 billion plan to buy a new fleet of 100,000-ton aircraft carriers (and the ships and subs to defend them) is a tempting target. That's a huge investment in gigantic ships that are increasingly vulnerable to long-range missiles--and even pirates or terrorists in a dinghy. At the heart of the debate is whether the Navy can make do with the 281 ships it has or needs to grow about 10%, to 313 ships. Gates has good reason to be skeptical. The Navy's "battle fleet is still larger than the next 13 navies combined," he recently noted. "And 11 of those 13 navies are U.S. allies or partners."

Carriers replaced battleships at the center of U.S. naval power in World War II, but they've been losing ground, offensively and defensively, for years. Until the 1980s, the offensive punch of smaller warships was limited to short-range guns. But now these ships pack Tomahawk cruise missiles, giving every destroyer, cruiser and attack submarine the ability to destroy targets well beyond the reach of carrier-based planes--without risking pilots. Distributing that firepower across 120 warships instead of concentrating it on America's 11 carriers makes sense. Then there's the huge built-in cost of carriers. Much of a carrier group's firepower--accompanying ships and subs and the airplanes on its deck--is dedicated to protecting the flattop itself. "We need to move from a Navy of a few large carriers to a Navy of many smaller ships," says John Arquilla, a professor of defense analysis at the Navy's postgraduate school in Monterey, Calif. "The carriers ought to have their numbers painted over with bull's-eyes."

Two recent Pentagon-funded reports have questioned the Navy's carrier-centric strategy. The vessel's huge cost and half-century life span give potential foes like China a "static target" to threaten, a 2007 report said. A smarter option, the study suggests, is to build a Navy of many smaller and simpler ships, which would complicate enemy targeting and give U.S. commanders better intelligence. Nonetheless, the Navy has just begun spending $11 billion to design and build the first in a new class of carriers, the U.S.S. Gerald R. Ford, scheduled to join the fleet in 2015.

The Army

Gates' final target is on land. The Army is getting $160 billion to outfit a third of its force with a complex network of electronically linked vehicles, beginning in 2015. This supposedly synchronized web of vehicles is called the Future Combat Systems (FCS) and would include tanks, troop carriers and unmanned aircraft ostensibly knit together in a computerized cavalry. The Army likes to argue that the FCS is a transformational approach to fighting wars, in part because it is giving up a lot of armor in favor of some 95 million lines of computer code designed to detect and avoid enemy fire. In theory, all this technology would give combat GIs the ability to destroy the enemy from far away.

That's the idea, anyway. In fact, there are serious questions about the FCS. Only two of its 44 key technologies are mature enough to generate reliable cost estimates, according to the Government Accountability Office. The Army has so far spent $18 billion trying to get the FCS to work and plans on spending $21 billion more before it gets a formal green light for production in 2013, when key performance tests still will not have been done. And the FCS's vaunted mobility has already been scrapped; the Army has abandoned plans to transport all those vehicles to the battlefield aboard C-130 cargo planes because they are too heavy. Costs are on the rise as well: the Army was able to keep the FCS's total price tag at $160 billion only by killing four of the program's 18 platforms in 2007--and is likely to continue cutting them to keep down the expense.

The bigger question is whether such a high-tech approach to war makes sense after the U.S. learned that getting soldiers out of their vehicles and mixing among the locals was a key to turning Iraq around. Weapons designed to kill from afar may not be best for counterinsurgencies, in which intelligence is most often gleaned only by personal contact. General Peter Chiarelli, the Army's No. 2 officer, disputes the idea that FCS "is a Cold War relic." But not everyone agrees. Retired Army officer Andrew Krepinevich Jr., who advises the Pentagon as president of the independent Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments, says the U.S. already can do from the air what the Army wants the FCS to do from the ground. Such redundancies, Gates says, are things the country can no longer afford.

Trimming any of these systems--much less killing them--won't be easy. Gates is waging this war on two fronts. First, he knows he has to change a Defense Department culture that favors "99% exquisite solutions over a five- or six- or 10-year period" to a "75% solution in weeks or months." To help accomplish that, he is salting the military's senior ranks with officers who agree with him. He tapped General David Petraeus, whose counterinsurgency skills helped stabilize Iraq, to head an Army board asked to sift through colonels to identify those who merit promotion to one-star general. "An institution can always beat one or two people," Gates said recently, "but it's tough to beat four or five."

His second front, Congress, is, if anything, harder. During an appearance on Capitol Hill, lawmakers pushed him to declare their pet programs safe. Senator James Inhofe pressed Gates to protect the FCS program, whose high-tech cannon is built in Oklahoma, Inhofe's home state. "We have a nation where steel mills are shutting down," said Representative Gene Taylor, whose Mississippi district builds ships and who chairs the House Seapower Subcommittee and co-chairs the Congressional Shipbuilding Caucus. "I would ask you to encourage your acquisition folks to take advantage of these low prices." Shutting down the F-22 line means "the loss of 95,000 jobs," warned Georgia Senator Saxby Chambliss, as did many others in his state. "If we truly want to stimulate the economy, there's no better place to do it than in defense spending." Last month nearly half the Congress sent letters to Barack Obama urging him to keep the F-22 line humming.

To succeed, Gates will need backing from Obama, along with a plan to spend defense dollars more smartly, during the recession. Despite the protestations of lawmakers, defense spending is an inefficient way to create jobs because the skills that defense jobs demand require premium paychecks. (Civilians working on missile defense for Boeing in Arizona earn three times the state average, the company boasts--great for them, but not so good for taxpayers or the unemployed.) Gates has sent the White House $10 billion in military projects to include in the stimulus package--barracks, hospitals, clinics, child-care centers--that can more quickly generate jobs. Any additional funds saved by killing off major programs could be diverted into less glamorous programs the military needs more: cargo and tanker aircraft, Stryker combat vehicles and small littoral ships designed for coastal warfare. Today's weapons can be radically improved with new electronics, engines and other components without having to build whole new ships, planes or tanks. The F-16's builder says the latest version of that warplane rolling off Lockheed Martin's assembly line in Fort Worth, Texas, yields "the most advanced multirole fighter available today." In fact, the hottest F-16 now in the skies is flown not by the U.S. Air Force but by the oil-rich United Arab Emirates.

Gates, tempered by his decades of seeing what U.S. intelligence could--and could not--do, is leery of the buzzwords and silver bullets that ricochet around the Pentagon. "Be modest about what military force can accomplish and what technology can accomplish," he told an audience of midcareer military and intelligence officials last fall. War is "inevitably tragic, inefficient and uncertain," he said. So is taking on the Pentagon.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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Better stick in why it's seriously misguided or this will get locked for lack of comment.
 

AndrewR

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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(posted separately to avoid massive reply quotes!)

Ok, here are my problems with this guy's analysis:

1) The F-22 is NOT $350 million per jet. Most of that has already been spent so the actual cost of adding an additional 180 jets, or 60, does not equal 180 x $350 million. Let's use the real figure for the construction cost, which has been reported as $142 million each. Yes, that's still pricey, but aircraft always are. The new C-130Js are $48.5 million each. Canada bought four C-17s in 2007 for a project acquisition cost of $1.8 billion!

2) The cost savings from one F-22 in favor of drone production does not equal 1:12 airframes. Holy crap, that's a ridiculous proposition. How many people does it take to operate the F-22 versus the drones? There are maintenance for both (yes, MX on F-22 is greater), but there are also two operators for the drone plus operators in theater as well as intelligence people to analyze and disseminate the data from the drones. Plus, saying that we could take all of X aircraft and use them for Y aircraft's mission is stupid -- different airframes for different missions. While the F-22 has not been used in Iraq or Afghanistan because of the nature of the conflict (they could be, but I think there are some counterintelligence reasons for not doing so), that does not mean that there is no use in the arsenal for the F-22. We haven't used nukes since 1945 -- should we get rid of them in favor of the Global Hawk?

3) The Navy. An analysis of the number of ships needed should not be predicated merely on the size of competing navies. When was the last time our Navy fought a sea battle with an opposing navy? Last time that I checked, the purpose of the Navy is force projection and ensuring the free navigation of sea lines of communication. Very often, the USN is called upon to serve as a floating base, whether it's for launching attacks against Iraq or for supporting disaster relief in Indonesia. Neither of those missions take into account the size of an opposing naval force, but both require carriers and escort vessels to accomplish. If all opposing navies disappeared or became our allies, would we suddenly disband our Navy in response? Look at Somalia for a current event answer to that one.

4) I love this quote: "Department culture that favors "99% exquisite solutions over a five- or six- or 10-year period" to a "75% solution in weeks or months." The DoD culture which favors the 99% solution is a product of the responsible free press of our great nation, not a corrupt or mismanaged DoD acquisitions process. It is the same people like the author of the article who will lambaste the military when a piece of equipment fails to protect in every single case, when one situation causes a casualty when something else would have protected in that situation.

Case in point: Body armor. The Army's body armor, the Interceptor, is very good and has saved lives. There are probably better examples out there, but the Army had to field something immediately in great numbers, and it chose the Interceptor to do it. Can it be improved upon? Yes, and they have. Were the first fielded pieces completely adequate for all threats? No -- it was the 75% solution mentioned above. Was the Army absolutely annihilated in the press for not picking the absolute best protection regardless of cost? HELL YES!

Ok, I may have more later, but I have to run for now! Appreciate honest and thoughtful critique. Incidentally, I'm all in favor of acquisitions reform -- I've seen how bad it can be. However, some of the drivel in that article is amazing.
 

AndrewR

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
11,157
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Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Better stick in why it's seriously misguided or this will get locked for lack of comment.

Sorry -- can't type that fast! See my first line for why I structured it this way. :)
 

dphantom

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2005
4,763
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Originally posted by: AndrewR
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Better stick in why it's seriously misguided or this will get locked for lack of comment.

Sorry -- can't type that fast! See my first line for why I structured it this way. :)

It's a tough nut to crack deciding what weapon systems we will need 15-30 years down the road. Once you get past reasearch, development and testing, heck 15 years have passed already so the system may in fact be obsolete or unneeded due to changing conditions.

I personally like a large naval force capable of projecting power and a lot of it anywhere. The USAF says they can but a B-2 is just not the same as seeing a carrier strike force sitting off your coast knowing there is a MEU available too.

I would like to see 2 more wings of F-22s but don't know about the Army plan. Theoriticlly it is good, but no one ever wins by giving up protection for speed. And much of our future fights will be CI ops, not Iraqi war type engagements.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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What is the prospects of protecting a fleet against Chinese missiles?

Isn't the best defense a world of happy people? How about some investment in what happiness or self fulfillment or inner peace is?

Maybe like broadband so everybody can play WOW.
 

heyheybooboo

Diamond Member
Jun 29, 2007
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Even Bush projected a $200 billion+ decline in DoD spending over the next several years so be prepared (and not surprised).

I don't know about the 12:1 on the drones but I don't doubt it. The DoD wants to move to the F-35 JSF to compliment the F-22 and replace the Hornets and Harriers.

90%+ of the components are similar across the variations wanted by the USAF, Navy and Marines. Lower initial cost, uses a variant of the Pratt & Whitney F22 power plant, more modular with 'composite' components, STOVL for Marines ... makes long-term costs much lower
 

dphantom

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2005
4,763
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Originally posted by: Moonbeam
What is the prospects of protecting a fleet against Chinese missiles?

Isn't the best defense a world of happy people? How about some investment in what happiness or self fulfillment or inner peace is?

Maybe like broadband so everybody can play WOW.

Very good since the Chinese stole the tech from us in the first place. So we know all the secrets. :)

As for investment in happiness, right with you brother. I wish the government would see it my way and buy me that 35 foot cruiser I am going to look at next week. Talk about bliss and inner peace.
 

AndrewR

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
11,157
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0
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
What is the prospects of protecting a fleet against Chinese missiles?

Ever hear of the AEGIS system? It's the best surface to air missile system without question, capable of shooting anything down up to and including ballistic missiles and satellites.
 

dphantom

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2005
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That's why AEGIS was built, to protect carriers against incoming missile and aircraft attack if inbund a/c get past the carrier CAP. Nothing is better than AEGIS. AEGIS can track multiple inbound missiles at a time and engage them simultaneously.

Between the AEGIS cruiser that is with every carrier group and some include an AEGIS equipped DDG as well the carrier can stand up to an attack pretty well. And teh counter blow will be devastating to the attacking country. Say bye bye enemy Navy.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
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I'm not worried about our ability to project pain and suffering on brown people. These sound like good cuts but with the way congress is I don't think it will happen.
 

marincounty

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2005
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Originally posted by: AndrewR
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
What is the prospects of protecting a fleet against Chinese missiles?

Ever hear of the AEGIS system? It's the best surface to air missile system without question, capable of shooting anything down up to and including ballistic missiles and satellites.

Too bad the people controlling the system were idiots.
Text

Iran Air Flight 655, also known as IR655, was a civilian airliner shot down by US missiles on Sunday 3 July 1988, over the Strait of Hormuz, toward the end of the Iran-Iraq War.

The aircraft, an Airbus A300B2 operated by Iran Air as IR655, was flying from Bandar Abbas, Iran, to Dubai, UAE, when it was destroyed by the U.S. Navy's guided missile cruiser USS Vincennes, killing all 290 passengers and crew aboard, including 66 children,[1] ranking it seventh among the deadliest airliner fatalities.[2] Vincennes was traversing the Straits of Hormuz, inside Iranian territorial waters, at the time of the attack and IR655 was within Iranian airspace.

According to the US government, the crew mistakenly identified the Iranian Airbus A300 as an attacking F-14 Tomcat fighter. The Iranian government maintained that the Vincennes knowingly shot down a civilian aircraft. The event generated a great deal of controversy and criticism of the US. Some analysts have blamed US military commanders and the captain of the Vincennes for reckless and aggressive behavior in a tense and dangerous environment.[3][4]

In 1996, the United States and Iran reached "an agreement in full and final settlement of all disputes, differences, claims, counterclaims" relating to the incident at the International Court of Justice.[5] As part of the settlement, the United States agreed to pay $61.8 million in compensation for the Iranians killed. The United States did not admit responsibility or apologize to the Iranian government.[6]

As of January 2008, Iran Air still uses the flight number IR655 on the Tehran?Dubai route
On the morning of 3 July, the Vincennes was passing through the Strait of Hormuz returning from an escort duty.[11] A helicopter from the USS Vincennes received warning fire after it buzzed Iranian patrol vessels. The Vincennes moved to engage to Iranian vessels, in the course of which they all violated Omani waters, which they all left when challenged and ordered to leave by a Royal Navy of Oman warship.[14] The Vincennes then crossed into Iranian territorial waters and opened fire on Iranian gunboats. The USS Sides (FFG-14) and USS Elmer Montgomery (FF-1082) were nearby.

It was shortly after this gunfire exchange that Iran Air Flight 655 approached to begin its transit of the Straits. The USS Vincennes fired missiles at the airliner, destroying it and causing it to fall into the waters of the Persian Gulf.

Three years after the incident, Admiral William J. Crowe admitted on American television show Nightline that the Vincennes was inside Iranian territorial waters when it launched the missiles.[30] This contradicted earlier Navy statements.
John Barry and Roger Charles of Newsweek wrote that Captain William C. Rogers III acted recklessly and without due care in their 13 July 1992 article.[25] They also accused the U.S. government of a cover-up which Admiral Crowe denied.[26] An analysis of the events by the International Strategic Studies Association described the deployment of an Aegis cruiser in the zone as irresponsible and felt that the expense of the ship had played a major part in the setting of a low threshold for opening fire.[27] The Vincennes had been nicknamed 'Robocruiser' by crew members and other US Navy ships, both in reference to its AEGIS system, and to the supposed aggressive tendencies of its captain.[4]

On 6 November 2003 the International Court of Justice ruled that "the actions of the United States of America against Iranian oil platforms on 19 October 1987 and 18 April 1988 cannot be justified as measures necessary to protect the essential security interests of the United States of America."[28] However, the case relating to the Airbus downing, "the Aerial Incident of 3 July 1988, (Islamic Republic of Iran v. United States of America)", was dropped 22 February 1996 following settlement and reparations by the United States
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,486
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Yah, I'm guessing they didn't get any better in the last 21 years at handling the AEGIS system :roll:
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,947
126
Originally posted by: marincounty
Some evil shit

So it works. Cool. so we don't need fighters anymore. Honestly war should be like a video game at this point. No man on the ground just terminator robots and flying drones of death. Then we could just cleanse the world of it's "problem" on second thought though it would be more profitable to just be in protracted engagements with them all.
 

marincounty

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2005
3,227
5
76
Originally posted by: alchemize
Yah, I'm guessing they didn't get any better in the last 21 years at handling the AEGIS system :roll:

Well, they haven't shot down any civilian airliners lately.

WTF, they still are building aircraft carriers? They are still trying to build up for the cold war. Three hundred ships, that BS went out with Reagan. After Reagan spent billions rebuilding battleships and increasing the size of the navy, they promptly mothballed them.

Quit building gold-plated weapons systems and focus on what is necessary and what works.
Military spending does create jobs, but at a much higher cost than creating civilian jobs.

Fighter planes for $200 million to $350 million each? That is a cruel joke on the taxpayer.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,685
136
Gates hits the nail on the head right here-

Though Gates was hired by George W. Bush to clean up the mismanaged wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, Gates' greatest legacy may come in what he calls a "strategic reshaping" that better outfits the U.S. military to wage coming wars. Future weapons buys must "be driven more by the actual capabilities of potential adversaries," Gates told Congress a few weeks ago, "and less by what is technologically feasible given unlimited time and resources." Pentagon procurement, he said, is plagued by a "risk-averse culture, a litigious process, parochial interests, excessive and changing requirements, budget churn and instability and sometimes adversarial relationships within the Department of Defense."

"Actual capabilities of potential adversaries"- What a concept!

The Pentagon is still building fantasy scenarios against a cold war threat that was mostly trumped up in the first place, and Gates knows it, all too well. It seems highly likely that we'll be just as safe from any boogeyman threat as we already are even if we cut military spending by half- that'd be 1/4 of the world's total miltary spending, rather than half... most of the rest of that spending is done by our allies, fer crissakes...

 

marvdmartian

Diamond Member
Apr 12, 2002
5,442
27
91
Originally posted by: marincounty
Originally posted by: alchemize
Yah, I'm guessing they didn't get any better in the last 21 years at handling the AEGIS system :roll:

Well, they haven't shot down any civilian airliners lately.

WTF, they still are building aircraft carriers? They are still trying to build up for the cold war. Three hundred ships, that BS went out with Reagan. After Reagan spent billions rebuilding battleships and increasing the size of the navy, they promptly mothballed them.

Quit building gold-plated weapons systems and focus on what is necessary and what works.
Military spending does create jobs, but at a much higher cost than creating civilian jobs.

Fighter planes for $200 million to $350 million each? That is a cruel joke on the taxpayer.

Actually the 600 ship navy went out with Reagan, since that was his goal. The 300 ship navy came about after the cold war ended, during the draw down that happened in the Clinton administration years. And they didn't rebuild the battleships, they refurbished 4 that were still in mothballs after having been retired (for the 2nd or 3rd time), and upgraded them with newer systems (like the Tomahawk missile system). They were retired due to the cost of operation (the 16" guns, the 50+ year old boiler systems, etc). Again, due to the drawdown after the collapse of the Soviet Union and the end of the cold war.

As far as the cost of fighter planes, please read AndrewR's 2nd posting, where he refutes some of the points made in the Time magazine article. And while the cost may still seem stupendous, it should be pointed out, too, that the F-22 is the first fighter plane designed and build since the 70's, when the F-14 and F-15 fighters came out.......and we've had a bit of inflation happen in the intervening years, ya know??

Also, the point that the Time article makes, where they're not using the high priced fighters in Afghanistan or Iraq, but are instead using unmanned drones, is like comparing apples & oranges. If either country had an air force, with fighter planes, our fighters would be over there whoopin' them out of the sky. But anyone who believes that you could shoot a modern day fighter down with a drone is on some serious medication, that probably has a label on the bottle advising them not to operate motorized vehicles while taking that medication! The argument shouldn't be whether or not the F-22's are worth the price we pay for them (they are, imho), but whether the air force needs any more than they already have in their inventory.

The article also fails to point out that the new carriers being designed are the first new design since the late 60's (when the Nimitz design came about), and will be replacing carriers that, by the time they're retired, will have seen 50+ years of service. Like the USS Enterprise (CVN-65), which was commissioned in November of 1961, and will retire sometime between 2012 and 2014. I'd say we're getting our money's worth out of these ships, wouldn't you??

So while I agree that there's room for improvement in the way our military branches spend money, they're not always building "gold plated weapon systems". :roll: