Take this hobby and shove it.....

cautery

Senior member
Oct 9, 1999
374
0
71
I'm posting part of a response I wrote to another post here and in several/many other forums. I am not attempting to SPAM anyone, simply trying to get my message across to the broad range of folks I have conversed/worked/had fun with over the last several years. Please allow me this bit of latitude. I have never before, nor will I ever again, "push" the limits of Forum rules or etiquette. Thanks,

WARNING: This may appear to be a flame. It is NOT. I am simply voicing my long-held beliefs on a topic on which I have extremely strong convictions, and about which, I have held my tongue to long. No one individual should take offense, as this is not directed at any ONE person.

Let's do a "gut check" here people. I have come to literally avoid having to cruise the Forums and the many Hardware Review Sites I've been known to frequent. Why? Read on....

I am so sick and tired of every "Johnny-come-lately" with a thermistor, teenage wannabe engineers, and "Gotta Have Brand X; your wrong, I'm right no matter what the facts say; I have a website, so I'm an expert.... my hit counter proves it; and idiots of ALL ages continually posting not only misleading, but downright wrong information, results, procedures, half-assed "scientific" comparisons, etc, etc.... ad freakin' nauseum on the Forums and so-called hardware review websites.

The fact is that there are virtually NO true experts anywhere around online. Some of us are "smarter than the average bear", and a very few of us actually know what we are talking about when we post.... and even these few sometimes make mistakes occasionally. Even knowledgeable folks make errors at times.

BUT, there are a LARGE number of folks passing themselves off in the Computer Hardware, Performance, and Cooling Community as EXPERTS, when in fact they don't really know their collective asses from the proverbial "hole in the ground." This fact is (which unfortunately is NOT generally recognized by the majority of knowledge seekers on the Net/Forums) that these so-called "experts/reviewers" generally are not even remotely competent to review toilet paper, much less the vast array of hardware they regularly suck up for FREE from the manufacturer (or small-business.... usually online-type). Now you can't really fault the businesses, as they are simply out for a little "free/low-cost" advertising in their own self-interest.... not entirely "Kosher", but at least it's understandable.... and obvious.

The guys running these "review" sites would have you think that THEY are "Moses come down from the Mount" to deliver the "divine law" on computer hardware. Wake up y'all.... They aren't.... None of them are.... A few.... VERY few, are knowledgeable enough that I would be comfortable saying that "OK, you can listen to them as an opinion... but NOT an authority." Sadly, MOST of the current review sites are MUCH more interested in their visitor counts, and page views, than in the accuracy or quality of the content and conclusions they publish.

NO ONE PERSON (or staff to my knowledge) has the knowledge, experience, and expertise to hold themselves up as an AUTHORITY on such a broad range of topics as are routinely included on review sites and forums. There ARE however a FEW folks that I would place my trust in. These folks don't offer themselves up as experts in everything as some do... they generally confine their opinions to their limited area of experience.

In fact, in the case of the FORUMS, the majority of the folks who could be reasonably called experts or authorities in a field are generally "run off" the forums by the overwhelming voice of the galactically stupid who generally infest most forums with their inane and generally stupendously idiotic "measurements", "comparisons", or other fantasy-land story posted to make them feel better about the purchase decisions they themselves made. I've seen it happen people.... I mean, what well-respected engineer or other recognized expert is going to keep coming back to these Forums when they keep having to endure idiots and pimply-faced teenagers disparaging them, disputing fact with supposition and fiction, and generally acting like jack-asses. The sane choice is to say, "Screw it! Let 'em drown in their own ignorance. I'm out?a here!"

Frankly, I'm tired too. It's simply a matter of numbers here folks... If a few people are trying to test and report facts, and scientific information, and in opposition, a few HUNDRED or more continually post incomplete, innacurate, or simply WRONG information (either by ignorance, obstinance, or by design), the incorrect information will begin to be "accepted" as fact..... repeated, etc....

It's akin to the "Big Lie" theory used by the better historical propagandists. If you tell the people a big enough lie, and you tell it often enough, they will accept it as truth in spite of facts to the contrary.

People, it's more than just whether heatsink X is better than heatsink Y, or Spacely Sprockets are better or worse than Cogswell Cogs.... It is much more serious than that. We have a serious problem here (and elsewhere). There is a serious shortage of critical thinking skills in the world an particularly here in the Computer Enthusiast community. One would think that the average level of intelligence would be higher here than in the populace as a whole. Well, it may be, but the level is most certainly also declining rapidly. As my favorite math teacher used to say to his advanced students, "I don't care if the tests say you are a genius. If you don't have plain old "Horse Sense", you WILL fail my class." One of the wisest men I ever met.... taught us a whole lot more than math.... he taught us to think, to question, and to be satisfied with nothing less than the truth.

So many people have simply abandoned common sense and intellect and replaced it with polls, consumer reviews, and "talking heads" that it's becoming the exception rather than the rule to find a truly independent thinker anymore. Why? Because thinking is hard... it takes training, practice, effort, and above all a thirst for truth. A growing majority of folks have joined the proverbial "flock of sheep" being led around by half-truth (or worse), unsubstantiated opinion, and marketing hype. Once again, "Why?" I'll tell you. Because a sheep doesn't have to THINK. He doesn't have to train his mind, exercise it, practice, and work hard at getting to the truth. The sheep need only follow with his nose up the butt of the sheep in front. The sheep is tended well enough.... fed "enough", given "enough" water, etc. Need anyone be reminded however that the sheep is NOT FREE. Not in his mind or in his person. At any time the sheep is subject to "fleecing" for what he has produced, or simply liquidated for the "nourishment" his very body will provide to his owners' table or bank accounts.

Do you want to know what is REALLY sad? Some of the folks who manage the attention span to read this entire post simply won't "get it". They are already well-integrated into the "flock". They've surrendered their minds to the "Big Lie" and its relative ilk. They've sold their freedom for comfort and leisure. You see, to the well-indoctrinated, folks like me appear as the exception rather than the rule. When folks like me... those who stand up, make logical arguments, challenge "established" norms, express new/different ideas, etc... speak out without equivocation, we are branded "out there", "extreme", blah, blah, yadda freakin' yadda....

Well ladies and gentlemen.... To those who know me, I'll miss you guys. To those whom I've never had occasion to meet but WOULD have liked, I'm sorry I didn't have a chance to speak with and share ideas with you. To the rest of you.... members of the "flock", and other non-aligned members of the willingly ignorant I say:

"Screw it! Let 'em drown in their own ignorance. I'm out?a here!" :D

Signing off....
 

Noriaki

Lifer
Jun 3, 2000
13,640
1
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Call me adverse, preverse or cynical, or hell anything else you want, but I LOVED that post. That was great. Good job cautery, we need more folks like you, it's a shame to lose you. :D:D:D *LMAO*
 

Senior Member

Senior member
Dec 17, 1999
381
0
0
If you happen to be a rebel without a cause, I would suggest that there are many worthwhile causes out there, all certainly more worthwhile than that of computer hardware. Happy hunting.
 

Madcowz

Platinum Member
Jul 23, 2000
2,652
0
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Okay after "managing my attention span to read this entire post" and all I can say is, "who cares?" You are taking this way too seriously and passionately and quite frankly I don't even quite understand what you're so fervantly disgusted about. We are ALL sheep in some way, don't tell me else. Maybe you don't want to believe it but I'm sure like everyone else you somehow conform to some society "norms" and become a follower in effect. If you want to be accepted by society than that's your only choice. You might have a valid point about ignorant reviewers and people giving bad advice and being sure of themself that everything they say is true, but who cares? This is typical humman behavoir. No one likes to be proven wrong and we always like to believe we are right. Sure I agree that you shouldn't say anything unless you're certain you're right but how can we determine if we are right or not? Who's to say x is better than y anyways? We must obviously think we are right about something if we state or opinion to be that way... we might not be right in all cases but who would suggest something if they don't believe in it themselves? We can only base our advice on our own experiences and our experience comes from the opportunity of using such hardware b/c we were influenced to buy it from the advice given from others who must have in some way experienced such a piece of hardware. Who are you to call people ignorant? You make yourself sound like your full of yourself; better than then all of us, and that your "expert" opinion is all that really counts. What's wrong with polls and consumer reviews? How else are we going to get to know the quality of a product and what it is really about to help us decide which one to get? Who polls the product and who reviews these products? Obviously people who have USED such products and experienced it themselves. I wouldn't talk about a geforce and formulate opinions on the card unless I owned one. We all base our opinions on experience which is as accurate as it gets. I personally feel safe trusting other's opinions (based on experience) and even if I didn't feel safe what else can I base my purchase decision on? Anyways I don't feel like typing up an essay so I'll just end at that.
 

DarkRipper

Golden Member
Jun 29, 2000
1,351
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71
I play paintball to blow off the steam I gather from reading all the pedantic posts on various review sites. Yep, nothing like shooting people (legally) to make you feel better at the end of the day.

:D
DR
 

JackMDS

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 25, 1999
29,552
429
126
You are right in most of your description, but I don?t understand your problem.

In the News World, there is New York Times, Newsweek, CNN etc, and there is what we call Supermarket Tabloids. When sane people have to make a solid decision they try to base it on the information given by credible source, and not by a Supermarket Tabloids.

There is a lot of credible computer info out there, and there is forms of ?Computer online Tabloids? i.e. most of public forums.

So take it as it is and enjoy, and if it bugs you too much don?t log.


 

HigherGround

Golden Member
Jan 9, 2000
1,827
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I'd like a short abstract...post with more than 10 lines make me dizzy

edit: after a few tylenols i managed to read through most of the post...now i'm trying to digest it :)
 

DaddyG

Banned
Mar 24, 2000
2,335
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Ya want a good example of what Cautery is saying,

I dare you to read The Definitive L2 Cache Guide by Adrian. Really, Definitive indeed. Its pure bull sh1t. It defines nothing, the results show nothing. No theory is presented or tested. End of Rant.
 

eyor

Banned
Feb 7, 2000
1,641
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I think my attention span needs an upgrade. I stopped reading around the 2nd line. From what I gather this is some conspiracy theory or something?
 

jmcoreymv

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
4,264
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Why b!tch about it? In a way I agree with you, but that post isnt going to solve the problem, and neither is this one :).
 
Apr 5, 2000
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From what I gathered, hes tired of people saying "Go to Tomshardware to learn to OC"

And I don't really think anyone classifies themselves as experts. They have semi educated opinions on the matter, which they tell to other people who want to hear it. Does that make them an expert? No it doesn't, but people just assume they are.
 

Oyeve

Lifer
Oct 18, 1999
22,066
883
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Sounds like hes gone postal
(I apologize to all the USPS workers out there for using this term)
 

Alphacowboy

Senior member
Oct 11, 1999
482
0
0
Shit, that was awesome! I must say I might not know the answer to everything but common sense is something that is lacking in this world! Most of the posts on here are pretty pointless and full of BS that some looser without half a brain decided to infect the fourm with. Now I'll admit that when I first started visiting the forums (way back when they started) I posted some stupid stuff and some of the replys that I have posted are MY OPINION and not always the hard found facts. But the truth is everyone here has had different experiances with different hardware/software and even that wild hair up their ass and have their own opinions! But you are so right, there is way to many people here and every computer/electronics forum and review sites that have no idea what they are talking about! For example I myself am an Intel fan, I have had goodluck with them and not very goodluck with AMD. Joe Shmoe down the street might have 8 AMD systems he loves and a Intel system that he hates... now opinions I have no problems with but when they start throwing numbers and stats that they pulled out of their ass just to make them look good is where I draw the line! Anyway, great post, and some wonderful points!
 

Madcowz

Platinum Member
Jul 23, 2000
2,652
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My only beef on these forums is the people who bash products they have never used.... kinda like Athlon users bashing Pentium 3's and vice versa... they have no right do compare the two unless they actually used both.

IF ANYTHING I ADVISE YOU TO READ MY ABOVE POST CAUTERY... perhaps I will have succeeded in getting some sense into you.
 

AngelOfDeath

Golden Member
Apr 25, 2000
1,203
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Hmmm I must say that I agree with you, not that I think of me as one of the smart guys, more as a learning-guy.

But speaking of this forum I believe that we have some well educated and knowlegeable people around here. The great thing about forums is that we all have the ability to answer a question the best we can do and then others can question the given ansers to these threads. And I believe that we in the end will reach an answer and if not then we at least tried.

Even though all these threads get a lot of answers it's in the end the person - who made the thread, to descide whether to believe or disbelieve these given answers. And I guess that that's the meaning with these forums.

And often it's a matter of asking for guidens to what he or she should buy and there by all answers depends on nothing but preferences and experience with these things. Even in the other topics it all depends on personality, preferences, likeings, believes and so forth. And once again we have the right to say what we want and what we will no matter what...if not the hole idea behind the forums disappears.

Once in a while a question drops down form the sky demanding a qualified answer and you are right...often the answers are wrong, but nothing is stopping you or anybody else from questioning that answer and give the correct answer. And even at that point it's up the the person who asked to figure out who he believe and what he should believe...In the end these forums are great and gives me and a lot of other people (I think :)) a great time. As long as we all are a little sceptical and critical I believe that we all in the end have learned a little.

AoD ;)
 

office boy

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 1999
4,210
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I do not know you cautery, but legends of you warpcore project require me to give you some respect, so does the fact that that was a damn long post.
I don't really get you problem. Kids will always yell, any old shmuck can get off the street and give advice on something and say he's an expert. On a website how do I tell the street bum from the PHD?
Take jmcoreymv (who I pick because I saw his post in this thread) I have no idea who he is, how old he is, or what he does, but I know from his post's that he knows networking... Now do I need to see a certificate from him to know that? No, I can tell because he knows what he's talking about, and it?s evident in his post?s.
Do I care if someone post's drivel and bad advice, NO, either I will know it bad and ignore, or I will be sucked in.
Whatever your problem is GET OVER IT, and get on with life. It's a bit to short to be getting worked up over thing's like bad advice on some anal aspect of computing... either stay and be part of the community, or don't and leave. Up to you, But no one can, or ever will be able to stop dumbasses from acting like they know everything. So there is no point in getting worked up.


BTW great post Madcowz
 

Russ

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
21,093
3
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Clay,

Reading through the responses, it's clear that you nailed it when you said this:



<< Some of the folks who manage the attention span to read this entire post simply won't &quot;get it&quot;. >>



I do understand what you're saying, and it encompasses far more than this isolated little world of computer hardware.

For anyone who doesn't realize it, AnandTech just lost one of it's greatest human resources.

You will be missed, Clay.

Russ, NCNE
 

Madcowz

Platinum Member
Jul 23, 2000
2,652
0
0
:Q Are you calling me stupid? :D

:eek::D:|:(:Q:);):p:cool::disgust::frown::confused::frown::disgust::cool::p;):):Q:(:|:D:eek:

Apparently after reading many of the pre and proceeding posts I completely agree that some people are not grasping the general idea clay is trying to get across. Perhaps I don't either, and I don't want to sound like a smart-ass know-it-all, I just think we should all just drop this... I'd hate to lose a faithful anandtech member though... hopefully he will come back to read this post and realize that he is appreciated and wanted here.
 

Fandu

Golden Member
Oct 9, 1999
1,341
0
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Honestly I'm quite surprised. I've known and respected Clay ever since the humble beginnings of TA RC5 and TWP. From the Clay that I know and respect, I find this quite out of character. But I do happen to agree with him. There are alot of knowitalls on this board, as any board, you learn to put up with them.

And on this other point about everyone &quot;knowing&quot; everything, I don't really care if joe-blow in DC knows dick all, if he knows how to help me with a problem, then great. It's not too hard to seperate the dumbasses from the people who are trying to help.

Other than that I'm not sure what to say, I generally keep in the DC forums because most people there are very helpfull. In the back of my mind, I still respect Clay very much, but at the forefront right now I'm rather surprised and not respecting him quite so much.
 

AstrayAndLost

Junior Member
Oct 4, 2000
1
0
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Well as I see the post is not just a rant on hardware websites, but a realistic view of the USA today. But what can you expect from people who say the live in the greatest democracy on earth, when the truth is they live in a police state where they every four years get to choose one of two men to be their dictator, and where more money is spent on building jails to lock people up than there is spent to keep them away from crime. I dont call it democracy to only have two parties to choose against at election time. I call that monopoly, and in politics thats just as bad as anywhere else.

I know this is way off topic, but im just saying this to underline the truth of cautery's words:


<< There is a serious shortage of critical thinking skills in the world an particularly here in the Computer Enthusiast community. >>



I think his post is very accurate, both in relation to the hardware world and in relation to the real world. People just want to be hip today. No one cares about the important but boring issues anymore. Well, I better stop now. Better go to some political forum to get my steem out.
 

MooCow

Senior member
Oct 12, 1999
237
0
0
I'm really sorry to see you go Clay. I really can't say I know you to well, but I do know that you've been a huge contributor to rc5 and the DC forum in general. I hope that you'll still drop by once in a while just for old times sake.

 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
Sorry to see you go Clay...I haven't had the pleasure of crossing (hopefully good if I did) you path, but I've read your post and agree whole-heartedly...Sadly, the forums are over-run with...well...I'll end it here!

To you, I dedicate the 9th of this month as your 1 year anniverary on the New Anandtech Fusetalk forums....

Take care and I hope you find the knowledge you are looking for without the excess baggage...

Robert

(This is one of those threads that deserves a real signature...Thanks for bringing this out Clay and you are always welcome in the DC forums...)