t2i video questions - timecode & audio

[alizee]

I'm looking at shooting a documentary and I think the t2i might be my camera of choice. I'm just a little bit concerned about a couple things:

It seems there are some issues with the audio, mainly the automatic gain control. Has this been resolved with a firmware update or anything? Also, if it has been resolved, what format does it record in? The specs page says PCM, which might be fine, but is it 16/48? 24/96? Is it compressed at all?

If the AGC problem still lingers, I'm looking at a separate recorder. Does the t2i record video with SMPTE timecode? Does it record with any timecode at all? Can I jam sync with my audio recorder or a smart-slate?

Am I asking to much from the t2i? I like a lot about it, the price, availability of decent prime and zoom lenses and a larger than 1/3" image sensor (I like depth of field). I might be looking at stepping up to the 5d, if only for the better audio, or to a prosumer video camera. Any other suggestions?

Kind of an aside, but is there a limit to video recording times other than sd card size?

Thanks for your help!!!!

 

[Kaido]

Yes, it still has AGC. There is a hardware hack for the Rode VideoMic, but meh - I'd just go with a separate audio recorder. You can use Pluraleyes to sync: (for FCP & Vegas, and a beta for Premier)

http://www.singularsoftware.com/pluraleyes.html

You're not going to get real Timecode without spending a pretty decent chunk of change on audio equipment, and the Canon dSLR cameras don't support it anyway, so it's kind of a moot point. There's a Mac app called Magic Bullet grinder that looks like it extracts Timecode from the file's metadata, but it's not like you can jam-sync your audio equipment to a dSLR in production. Here's a link for reference:

http://www.redgiantsoftware.com/products/all/magic-bullet-grinder/

If you're looking at recorders, the Zoom H4n goes for $300 on eBay (new with card) and has XLR inputs:

http://www.zoom.co.jp/english/products/h4n/

Or the cheaper Zoom H2 ($140) if you just want a minijack input:

http://www.samsontech.com/products/productpage.cfm?prodid=1916

If you have some money to blow, the cheapest entry-level "professional"-sounding recording I'd go with is the Marantz PMD661: ($600)

http://www.d-mpro.com/users/folder.asp?FolderID=4405

And if you can afford to go really nuts, the Sound Devices 302 mixer ($1300) on top of that:

http://www.sounddevices.com/products/302master.htm

A PMD661 & SD302 is a really great recording combo (around $1900 together, plus a bag, breakout cable, etc.), then just add a quality mic or two and you're good to go!

If you want good audio, there's no secret: buy a decent mic (and recorder) and place it within a foot of the subject. If you mic is sitting on the camera, ten feet from the subject, you're not going to get good audio - it's just physics. That's why most Youtube videos sound like crap. Get your mic close to the source and you're all set.

If you're looking for a good microphone, you can go with either a shotgun or lavalier mic. You can get pretty good audio for only a few hundred dollars, instead of thousands. The Tram TR-50 is a good lav mic (clips under a collar or shirt). Pricing is $230 - $400 depending on the connector (which depends on which recorder you use). I use Rycote Undercovers to put my lav mics on clothing: (they act as both windmuffs and stickers for the clothing/skin)

http://www.trewaudio.com/store/product.php?productid=291&cat=101&page=1

Alternatively you can use a shotgun mic, which is much more versatile (you can use it for capturing more than just vocals). A good inexpensive model is the Audio Technica AT875r ($190):

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...r_Shotgun.html

It takes a bit more planning to hide it in each shot (above or below the person's mouth) and you also need some accessories to really make it usable. You'll need a boom arm (Gitzo makes some inexpensive ones - these are important to remove handling noise - don't skimp on a quality boom pole!) and some sort of windscreen. Rycote makes really good windscreens (windshield for indoors, with a wind muff for outdoors) but they are pretty expensive (like $600).

The upshot is that if you invest in a quality audio kit to begin with, you'll never need to bother with it again, as long as you take care of the equipment. It all really depends on your needs and your budget. A Rode mic with a Zoom H4n can make a pretty good budget kit. A decent-sounding setup can be had for a few hundred dollars, but if you want really really great sounding audio, be prepared to spend a few thousand on a good setup.

Also, keep in mind not only what but how you'll be shooting. If you're a lone wolf, you're probably going to want to go with lav mics if you're doing vocals so that you don't have to have someone holding a boom mic over the talent while you're filming. You can hold the boom mic while filming, but then you camera shots are all static. So think about how you'll be shooting, what you'll be shooting, where you'll be shooting, if help will be available, etc.

 

[Kaido]

Am I asking to much from the t2i? I like a lot about it, the price, availability of decent prime and zoom lenses and a larger than 1/3" image sensor (I like depth of field). I might be looking at stepping up to the 5d, if only for the better audio, or to a prosumer video camera. Any other suggestions?

Kind of an aside, but is there a limit to video recording times other than sd card size?

Thanks for your help!!!!

You are limited to 12 minutes per clip on an SD card. This is because of the FAT filing system, which limits you to 4GB per file. Also bear in mind that using the video continuously will overheat the unit and you'll have to wait for it to cool down. But no one wants to watch 12 minutes worth of footage in one shot anyway - we want 2 to 6 second clips

The 5D has a few advantages: first, it's Full Frame, which imo looks better. Second, it has a better picture for video (we can get into a technical discussion later, but the 5D is better for video). Third, it has better low-light capabilities. Also, you can disable AGC on the 5D.

I personally went with a T2i. I use separate audio equipment, plus it was far, far cheaper ($849 with an 18-55 IS lens vs $2400), and I can use crop lenses (cheaper) as well as full-frame lenses. It's also smaller, which makes it nicer to tote around.

I wouldn't really look at anything other than a T2i or 5D right now for video, if you really want a sharp film-look and nice bokeh. The Scarlet is coming out at the end of the year, so if you want a serious shooting solution, you might want to wait (although a basic kit is nearly $5,000). I decided I wanted something today, and I could use the money I saved on the Scarlet & 5D to invest in some good camera accessories and audio equipment.

Also as an FYI, here are some great toys (that aren't too expensive) to look at for your camera:

http://www.dollytrax.com/

http://www.camotionllc.com/index.php

http://www.cobracrane.com/

http://joby.com/

http://focus35.com/

http://www.glidetrack.com/products/glidetrack-shooter.html

http://www.filmtools.com/sucuvcu.html

 

[alizee]

Cool, thanks for all the advice. Now I think I'll be looking at the t2i and an external recorder (and maybe a different audio bag than my current one), and I'd like to spend about the same amount on it as the camera.

Besides the Marantz, are there any others in that price range ($600-$1000) you'd recommend? There's a few I'm looking at, but I don't want to taint anybody's opinion

Yes, it still has AGC. There is a hardware hack for the Rode VideoMic, but meh - I'd just go with a separate audio recorder. You can use Pluraleyes to sync: (for FCP & Vegas, and a beta for Premier)

Nice, I hadn't really looked into that.. I haven't done much syncing in post (when we did our 16mm to video transfers we had the transfer house sync it). Am I right in guessing that it syncs the external audio with the camera audio, almost (maybe not quite) negating the need for a clapper board at the beginning?

And if you can afford to go really nuts, the Sound Devices 302 mixer ($1300) on top of that

That's the mixer I currently use, I love it. Wish I had the 442, though... I think in this circumstance, a lot of people would get by with a Sound Devices MixPre instead of the 302. Same preamps, no third input channel, but about half the price ($665 on B&H right now).

The Tram TR-50 is a good lav mic (clips under a collar or shirt). Pricing is $230 - $400 depending on the connector (which depends on which recorder you use). I use Rycote Undercovers to put my lav mics on clothing: (they act as both windmuffs and stickers for the clothing/skin)

I think the Tram's are alright, but I've been really into Countryman mics for awhile, the B6 is hard to beat for a hidden mic on a person or within the frame. It might cost a little more, but it's still only ~$280-$320.

You are limited to 12 minutes per clip on an SD card. This is because of the FAT filing system, which limits you to 4GB per file. Also bear in mind that using the video continuously will overheat the unit and you'll have to wait for it to cool down. But no one wants to watch 12 minutes worth of footage in one shot anyway - we want 2 to 6 second clips

The 12 minute thing is a slight disadvantage in interview settings, but doable. It may be a good excuse to re-set and re-sync with the audio recorder. How long would you expect it to take to cool down? That's a complaint I hadn't heard of, disappointing.

 

[Kaido]

Besides the Marantz, are there any others in that price range ($600-$1000) you'd recommend? There's a few I'm looking at, but I don't want to taint anybody's opinion

There's a number of them in that price range, but imo (and just imho) you can't beat the PMD661 for $600. The sound quality is outstanding for the price, although it's not something I'd use on a project meant to be seen by millions of people (but that's another $1300 plus a Mixer at least to get to that point, haha). The next step up I'd go with is the Sound Devices 702, but that's getting into "real money" territory, although the 702 is really the minimum for true professional work. I know of plenty of people who make their money with a 702 professionally and it does great, but $1900 is a pretty far cry from $600. My standard answers are:

1. Zoom H2 ($140)
2. Zoom H4n ($300)
3. Marantz PMD661 ($600)
4. Sound Devices 702 ($1900)

From there you're probably better off making your own recommendation, haha. Although I'd say skip the rest of the Sound Devices line and go straight to a Zaxcom Deva V

Nice, I hadn't really looked into that.. I haven't done much syncing in post (when we did our 16mm to video transfers we had the transfer house sync it). Am I right in guessing that it syncs the external audio with the camera audio, almost (maybe not quite) negating the need for a clapper board at the beginning?

Basically just syncs soundtracks, yeah. A clapperboard wouldn't hurt to give it a nice spike to sync to; a lot of people just use a semi-decent mic like a Rode VideoMic (~$150 with a windscreen) to get good on-camera audio to sync their external audio to in post.

That's the mixer I currently use, I love it. Wish I had the 442, though... I think in this circumstance, a lot of people would get by with a Sound Devices MixPre instead of the 302. Same preamps, no third input channel, but about half the price ($665 on B&H right now).

I wouldn't recommend the MixPre to anyone, despite the price difference. For so, so many reasons, it's completely not worth it. Even if you have a Zoom H4n as your recorder, I'd still recommend the 302 at minimum. Or skip the mixer until you can afford one. But since you have a 302, you're all set :awe:

If you want to get up-to-speed on audio, there's a pretty good introductory manual by Ty Ford that explains the basics:

http://web.mac.com/tyreeford/Site/Ty_Ford_Audio_Bootcamp_Field_Guide.html

I think the Tram's are alright, but I've been really into Countryman mics for awhile, the B6 is hard to beat for a hidden mic on a person or within the frame. It might cost a little more, but it's still only ~$280-$320.

Countrymans are great. I'm a Sonotrim fan myself (modded Trams). I usually recommend Trams because (1) they're pretty standard in the industry, and (2) it's just easier to recommend it since it's a bit cheaper and people always complain about a ~$50 to $100 difference. I don't know why - you're going to keep your audio equipment probably forever, so why not just save up a little longer and get the slighter better stuff instead of settling? (for the price of a couple pizzas?) Not that Trams aren't great, but go with your preference, you know? They're all going to be pretty awesome once you get into that price range anyway!

The 12 minute thing is a slight disadvantage in interview settings, but doable. It may be a good excuse to re-set and re-sync with the audio recorder. How long would you expect it to take to cool down? That's a complaint I hadn't heard of, disappointing.

Yup. I hate to recommend camcorders nowadays, but a camcorder may be a better option for interviews. I like dSLR's because (1) you get full manual control, and (2) you get outstanding picture quality. You still have to live with the 12-minute recording cap, the overheating issues, and non-optimal codecs, but your footage looks really great! Heck, they shot the House season finale on a Canon 5D :

http://ausiellofiles.ew.com/2010/05/07/house-season-finale-spoilers/

So it's more about getting the right tool for the job at hand - a camcorder will be more reliable for recording longer interviews. You can get used HV20's for like $400 or $500 nowadays, and those are pretty good (although more work - MiniDV tape - and less manual controls). You can go more prosumer with the different Canons available. Lots of options.

I mostly like to play with mine. The T2i was cheap and good. It has its flaws, but for the price & performance, I was willing to settle. I'm still saving up for a RED Scarlet, but for now I can go and shoot really fun movies and stuff and have a great time, so it's working out well for me :thumbsup: