System check/advice for first build

[hoss]

Howdy, y'all. I would appreciate feedback on my proposed system. I've spent the past few weeks of my spare time researching this, so I hope I don't come off as a complete idiot.

Intended use: #1 - photo editing/printing, #2 - Gaming (MMORPGs mostly)
Constrants: Amount to spend ~$1,000

MOBO: MSI K8N Neo4 Platinum Ultra Socket 939 NVIDIA nForce4 ($126)
CPU: AMD Athlon 64 3200+ Venice 1GHz FSB 512KB L2 Cache Socket 939 ($190)
RAM: CORSAIR ValueSelect 1GB (2 x 512MB) 184-Pin DDR ($87)
GRAPHICS CARD: SAPPHIRE 100105-BL Radeon X800XL 256MB 256-bit GDDR3 PCIe x16 ($289)
HDD: Seagate Barracuda 7200.8 250GB 7200 RPM ($123)
CASE: Antec SONATA II Piano Black Steel ATX Mid Tower ($104)
PSU: 450Watt SmartPower 2.0 ATX 12V V2.0 (included with case)
DVD: NEC Black Model #: ND-3540A Black ($46)

TOTAL: $965 (price of components only, no shipping or tax incl, no rebates deducted)

The hardest decision of all was deciding which motherboard to use. I've read good things and bad things on this mobo, and, well, all motherboards, but this seemed to have a good feature set for a good price (especially with the current $25 rebate) relative to its peers. The balance of reviews seemed quite positive, so I'm willing to roll my dice with MSI unless a better alternative is put forward.

Originally I was considering the SLI version, but decided against it. The x800xl video card appears to be the best bargain on the market at the moment, and is not SLI compliant. Comparing the SLI with a 6800gt to the Ultra with the x800xl I can save at least $70. However, one place the SLI is superior is integrated sound, with its 24-bit Creative compared to the Ultra's Realtek. I've read that the Creative uses less resources and has superior sound quality, but I wasn't clear on whether the performance gain during gaming or other applications was significant. I guess I could always add the Creative 24-bit card for $29. Is the 24 bit sound really worth it? Am I hindering my upgradeability by not going SLI?

I've also got the impression that this is one of the better boards for noobs thanks to the plug-and-play BIOS, making setting up an easier process. Is there any credance to this claim?

Most of the remaining choices seemed uncontroversial: Sapphire graphics card based on price and reputation; Seagate HDD for 5yr Warranty and performance (it's no Raptor speedwise, but then again, it's no Raptor $wise).

The only other questionable choice was in case and PSU. Clearly a cost saving measure here. The Sonata II was not my first choice looks/features-wise. I would prefer a nice Lian-Li or Antec P180, but these don't include a decent PSU. The above rig is non-SLI, and won't be overclocked to any serious degree so I thought this PSU seemed quite up to the task, with even some room to grow.

Sorry if this was long winded, but I felt that most system check requests were a little short winded. I'm really psyched about my first build, but want to take the time and do it right. I'm mostly concerned with the choice of motherboard and the PSU. All advice will be most appreciated.

Thanks,
Hoss

 

[Some1ne]

Looks good to me, I think the included PSU should be fine for that system and should also allow some future upgrades. As far as the sound goes, it depends on what you want it for. The built-in sound should be perfectly fine for gaming and casual things...if you want to use it as a multimedia/entertainment/DVD playing system however, it might make sense to add in a seperate soundcard. Not going SLI isn't hindering your upgrade path in my opinion. When I set up my Neo4 system, I didn't find it hard, although I was farily experienced at that point...that said however, the manual that ships with the board is pretty good, and includes detailed descriptions for all the important BIOS settings. Like I said, it looks like a pretty good system in my opinion.

 

[Diasper]

Ok you say you're going to use your computer for photo editing and also MMORPGs that means you've made one major ommission about the RAM - you'll need 2GB or rather benefit massively from it.

If going for 2GB it's best to go for 2x 1GB sticks but luckily there are excellenct cheap overclocking options. Namely:
- Crucial Value (Speed Binned DDR500 Ballistix) which many can do 240-250mhz at 3-3-3 @2.8V. Obviously at lower speeds they can do tighter timings
- Muskin BLue 3200 (ask Rise4310 about this) which have been getting excellent receptions from customers who overclock. I know less about these but they are certainly worth looking into as rise4310 on ehre got his to 257mhz at 2.5-3-2 @2.8V which is mightily impressive.

Either way they can both do tighter timings at say DDR400 and also they're good inasmuch as they don't need more than 2.8V to achieve such timings so don't need active cooling and perhaps are more reliable in that regard.

If going for 2GB you may want to save money in other areas. What I may recommend is getting the 3000+ because since you have an overclocking board you can use it. You'll probably be looking to get around 2.6ghz which means you'll need an overclockable board to 290mhz or so which I think the MSI should be able to do?

Motherboard - the MSI is good but known to be finicky. Personally I'd look to getting the SLI for two reasons - but both those reasons aren't for SLI in itself as that is a waste of money. But instead for

- the 24bit sound with low CPU utilisation. Unless you're looking to go for the Audigy 2 ZS finding a decent quality (2.1) sound solution with low CPU utilisation is difficult. So, this is an area you can save money for yourself later. Look here.
- the second high-speed PCI-E slot. That might become useful later with plug-ins such as the Physix processor. However, they're looking to use a 4x PCI-E slot so a 16x/8x slot should work - but i'm not quite sure!

Graphics card the X800XL is a good choice although compared to the 6800GT has no headroom if you're looking to overclock. I'm a fan of quiet computers so perhaps you might want to looking into quietly/passively cooled cards.

Hardrive I might actually recommend against you going with the Seagate 7200.8 as it's low and for it's noise doesn't offer any significant advantages. To me hardrive warranties outside of implying quality are not very useful as if a hardrive stops spinning and still has all my sensitive data on it which I can't erase, I'm not looking to send it back to the manufacturer where they might refurb it etc.

Either way I'd recommend going with the 7200.7 for quiet operation with 5 yr warranty. Otherwise the Samsung P120 drives are an excellent choice for quiet with good performance (slightly slower than average seek times but among the very fastest transfer rates for 7200rpm drives) else Hitachi who also have 3 year warranty which are quietish (compared to the majority of drives and offer excellent performance (among the very fastest seek times of 7200rpm drives but then among the slowest transfer times of them). I guess it's a matter of choosing quietness vs seek vs transfer. Although in the performance area depending on your work typically low seek times are the best.

The case, PSU are fine although if you wanted a different option you could go for the very cheap Antec 3000B weith an aftermarket PSU. It would probably come to a little more however where the case is slightly worse build quality (but better cooling) but with a better PSU.

I don't think if you went with your current system you'd be disappointed but I think your current setup imposes certain limitations (RAM) and otherwise could cause a finicky system (MSI mobo or noisy Seagate 7200.8 - add running out of RAM and you'll end up hearing that quite a bit). I hope that provides some help to you or at least new ways to consider things.

 

[weizilla]

Originally posted by: Diasper

Motherboard - the MSI is good but known to be finicky. Personally I'd look to getting the SLI for two reasons - but both those reasons aren't for SLI in itself as that is a waste of money. But instead for

- the 24bit sound with low CPU utilisation. Unless you're looking to go for the Audigy 2 ZS finding a decent quality (2.1) sound solution with low CPU utilisation is difficult. So, this is an area you can save money for yourself later. Look here.
- the second high-speed PCI-E slot. That might become useful later with plug-ins such as the Physix processor. However, they're looking to use a 4x PCI-E slot so a 16x/8x slot should work - but i'm not quite sure!

Would you still recommend the MSI or another brand such as Asus or something?

 

[hoss]

Many thanks to Diasper and Some1ne. I'm thinking I should pry my wallet open a little further. Another $100 for a 2x1GB RAM setup and the $70 bucks for the Neo4 SLI board and a Leadtech GeForce 6800GT video card. Remember, though, that overclocking is not my intention. At some point in the future when I've got the skilz ta pay da bilz I might go in for it, but I'm way too noob at the moment and inherently conservative. Stability and reliability rank higher than pedal to the metal performance. I don't want to lose hrs of work due to crashing or corruption.

Looking at HDDs, I found this Western Digital Caviar SE16 250GB 7200 RPM 16MB Cache SATAII

It's comparable to the Seagate, but has a bigger cache (16 v 8 for the Seagate). No NCQ, but I've read too many comments that it is pretty worthless anyway. I looked at the 7200.7 from Seagate, but the biggest they have on newegg is 200GB and it is only about $10 cheaper. The extra 50GB for $10 sounds good. Believe me this is going to be an insane upgrage from the 35GB in my Toshiba Satellite!!

As for the case, well, the Antec Solution SLK3000-B isn't so pretty on the eyes, although it is light on the wallet. If I double my money here to $200 bucks I could get a nice Lian Li PC-7 B as well as a good Enermax Whisper II.

The choice of motherboard was the hardest. I settled on the MSI board for the reasons I listed, but there are plenty of other comparable boards. As for being finicky, I hear the DFI Lan Party is even worse. With the current rebate the MSI board will cost about $60 less than boards like the ABIT Fatal1ty AN8-SLI. ASUS, Gigabyte, Epox, and Chaintech all have peer boards, but if I'm choosing the MSI SLI board for its sound than most of those get knocked out. I would appreciate any advice on which of these modern SLI boards is good for a noob in terms of ease of setup/use?

Okay, if I really tighten the belt I can probably justify the additional $300+ I'm proposing here. I haven't done much shopping around as of yet, so I could find some deals, but I figured they would at best cover the cost of shipping. How's the build looking now?

 

[Hacp]

I would suggest the MSI Neo-4 non planinum SLI. Its only 124 dollars.... and is only missing the extra lan. Also the NEO-4 SLI has creative sound, while the platinum non sli doesn't (i'm pretty sure it doesn't...)

Also, the crucial value ram isn't ballistix anymore. They put some crap chips in there now. So maybe the Mushkin blue...

Finally, I would suggest the x800 XL. Ya, it doesn't have much overclocking headroom, but overclocking is just for bragging rights, unless you really doneed to squeeze out those extra frames. That being said, it can still overclock, just not too much. The 50+ dollars seaved is worth it.

Ow ya, if your looking to save money, ZZF has the corsair value select for 87 dollars shipped...

 

[mrkun]

Here's a link to the NF4 Ultra mobo review that Anand did a month ago. You should probably have a look at it.

 

[Diasper]

Sorry when I meant finicky I meant as in possible stability/reliability issues or the motherboard just not wanting to play ball. The DFI is finicky inasmuch as it has serious issues with certain RAMs.

I think if you want to read more about the MSI board though please refer to the motherboard section or otherwise the numerous threads in the forums - do a quick search for them. Some people have absolutely no problem with the board and think its brilliant others seem to stumble onto problems. However, that must be checked and whether its just specific boards and if they can be overcome. My impression was it wasn't too serious.

For myself I'd consider the DFI-Ultra D for it's overclock and all-round quality but as you have been I was also looking at the MSI for its on-board sound tho I think I remember reading in reviews how sometimes the performance fell down randomly - though perhaps that's been corrected with later drivers as have the other problems people have experienced.

Outisde that the only other boards I might primarily consider is the Asus SLI Premium as an expensive top end board or else the Chaintech down at the cheap end.

Unfortunately, until the boards come out with the ATI chipsets there isn't an amazing choice - I'm certainly looking forward to the second rendition of the ATI chipset boards - with the first set they're problem with USB speed and a couple of other things that can be improved - however that's the board I'm eyeing up.

Outside of that the case looks good - I like the look of that and it looks like it has good cooling. But yeah, try and stick with 120mm fans if possible for the better cooling/lower noise as opposed to smaller fans. Alternative manufacturers to Antec or Lian-Li might include Silverstone or Coolermaster (possibly).

As for the PSU you can probably go with a slightly lower wattage and save money. I'm assuming the Whisper ones are the same as the Noisetaker ones we have here over in the UK in which case the 485W should have the same specs ie importantly the same amps on the -12V rails. However, for alternatives you could look to Seasonic or Tagan as makers of excellent quality quiet PSUs - Seasonic is perhaps the most popular in these enthusiast boards.

The hardrive looks fine to me and the 16mb cache should help - however WD is the one set of hardrives I haven't heard much about so I can't really offer any advice. However, there typically isn't a massive difference between hardrives.

--------

btw Hacp where/when did you hear about the Crucial Value RAM not being Ballistix anymore - that's quite significant news and will screw things up for me. I also hope that's only been very recently as I have recommended Crucial Value to others before.

edit - actually I'll PM

 

[Some1ne]

Another $100 for a 2x1GB RAM setup and the $70 bucks for the Neo4 SLI board and a Leadtech GeForce 6800GT video card.

I'm still not a fan of the whole SLI thing, but on the plus side going the SLI route with MSI means that you get a 24-bit 7.1 channel Creative audio chipset integrated with the mainboard, which pretty much eliminates the whole audio question.

 

[hoss]

Goog call, Hacp. Correct, the non-SLI version of the MSI Neo4 Platinum does not have the 24-bit , but the non-Platinum SLI does. The other difference between the Platinum and regular SLI is Silicon Image's SATARAID, which isn't listed among the features of the non-Platinum. However, I'm not interested in RAID. I'm not building a server (RAID 1) and the performance enhancement (RAID 0) just doesn't seem worth the risk, much less the cost.

Other comments and reviews are prompting me to really consider the EPoX EP-9NPA+Ultra and it comes highly recommended: Anandtech's Editors Choice Gold Award and as a recommended system for beginners in the *** The ULTIMATE Motherboard Selection Guide For New Users ***. However, Tom's Hardware puts the MSI Neo4 board above the Epox in this review. I certainly don't find as many complaint posts regarding the Epox, and it is cheaper ($108 for the Ultra). However, the Neo4 has SLI and the better Creative 24-bit sound for only $20 more. Decisions, decisions....

Hmm, a 1 x 1GB stick of 500DDR Ram is running like $160, so I don't think it is an option. OCZ has a decent deal on their OCZ Value Series 2GB (2 x 1GB). That's going for $194, or $126 less than the 2 x 1GB 500DDR. Unfortunately $$ is an concern. You can actually get the OCZ cheaper by buying them seperately, not as a kit, as there is a $10 rebate in effect at the moment on the single sticks (of course, only one per household).

Thanks to Hacp's suggestion my current upgrades are only going to increase cost by about $100, and even less if I go for the Epox and live with the lesser audio. However, that's assuming I'm keeping the Sonata II in the line up. I've been avoiding this like the plague, but I'm going to put on some shoes and head over to that zoo they call Fry's. I need to see the cases in person. I don't want to spend too much money, but I can't have my rig sitting in some nasty looking box.

MOBO: MSI K8N Neo4/SLI ($123)
CPU: AMD Athlon 64 3200+ Venice ($190)
RAM: OCZ Value Series 2GB (2 x 1GB) 184-Pin DDR ($194)
GRAPHICS CARD: SAPPHIRE Radeon X800XL 256MB 256-bit GDDR3 PCIe x16 ($289)
HDD: Seagate Barracuda 7200.8 250GB 7200 RPM ($123)
CASE: Antec SONATA II Piano Black Steel ATX Mid Tower ($104)
PSU: 450Watt SmartPower 2.0 ATX 12V V2.0 (included with case)
DVD: NEC Black Model #: ND-3540A Black ($46)

TOTAL: $1,069 (price of components only, no shipping or tax incl, no rebates deducted)

 

[mect]

As the individual sticks of ram are cheaper than the sets, I'd just get one GB stick initially, see how things run, and if you're not happy, then hit for a second. If things are okay, you can wait a year, then get the second stick for cheaper. Depending on where you're ordering from, I guess. If they don't do bundled shipping prices, the only thing you're risking is slightly slow performance for an extra week.

 

[n7]

Looks good.

Just replace that questionable NEC 3540A with the BenQ DW1640 & you're set.

Oh, & if you can afford it, check out the 2x1024MB OCZ value RAM.

More RAM is better, especially with inefficiently coded games like BF2 & F.E.A.R.

 

[Some1ne]

NEC is questionable? Over the past 5 years or so, I've used 4 different optical drives, 3 NEC (1 CD burner, 1 DVD ROM, and 1 DVD burner), and one BenQ CD burner, and the BenQ is the only one that's died on me so far.

 

[hoss]

Thanks again for all the advice. Taking everything into consideration I think I've settled on a configuration. I've raised my budget a bit, but made up some of that by buying a used Trinitron Flat CRT rather than an LCD. It's better for calibration anyway. I also did some shopping around for prices. Looks like ZipZoomFly is the place! I'm in CA, so Newegg isn't a cheap option thanks to the tax. My basic adjustements were a doubling of the RAM and a 6800gt graphics card. The difference was only $20 over an x800xl and leaves open the SLI possibility and is a better card anyway.

$124 - MSI K8N Neo4/SLI @ ZZF
$190 - AMD Athlon 64 3200+ Venice @ ZZF
$215 - CORSAIR ValueSelect 2x1GB @ ZZF
$300 - Leadtek 6800GT @ ZZF
$115 - Seagate Barracuda 7200.8 250GB @ <a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://www.monarchcomputer.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=M&Product_Code=150322&Category_Code=SATAHardDrives
">Monarch</a>
$48 - BenQ DW1640 BK @ ZZF
$86 - Fortron Blue Storm 500W Power Supply @ ActBuy
$112 - Lian-Li PC-7B Plus Black @ SVC
$90 - Windows XP Home @ ZZF
----------------------------------------
$1,280 Total (includes shipping and tax)


So that's the intended build. From all my research and asking around this seems really, really solid. I wanted all quality components w/o spending too much.

Any last minute advice or suggestions would be very much appreciated, esp now that I'm at the stage were serious cash is to be parted with.

Hoss

 

[fourbg]

Hoss - did you end up building this system yet? Your components are very similar to what I plan on building. I am particularly curious how you like the MB.

 

[hoss]

Fourbg, i built it last weekend and it went off w/o a hitch. THis is my 1st build so not much to compare it to, but it was easy enough and everything i needed to work works thus far. to that end i would recommend it. i'm not to the overclocking point yet, and don't plan it anytime soon, the system is plenty fast for me at the moment