Switching careers at 32.. could use some advice!
- Thread starter tugofpeace
- Start date
Markfw
Moderator Emeritus, Elite Member
- May 16, 2002
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I started programming after 2 years of college. I started at $10,000 (1982) It took me 5 years to where I got a decent salary/experience to get that. I was at about 30k by then.
In todays world, I think if you start at $30,000, it will take you 5 years to get to $60k, and 10-15 years to get to $120k. Beyond that its hard to say, as it depends on how good you are.
In todays world, I think if you start at $30,000, it will take you 5 years to get to $60k, and 10-15 years to get to $120k. Beyond that its hard to say, as it depends on how good you are.
Moving companies in a similar industry/job position is a win-win 90% of the time.
Trying to move careers to entirely different skills is a lose-lose 90% of the time.
Just my opinion
Also, personally, I've hit that point in my career where I've reached my desired money. I can pay for a house, max out retirement benefits, set aside money for my kid's college fund, etc.... At this point, I have zero care to increase that amount because it will give me tons more risk that the replacement job will require more working hours, less time with family. A new industry will have an entirely different work culture - and plenty of those work cultures (based on my prior experience with consulting) comes with the risk of a work-culture where work is valued as more important than family. I'm finally in a place where I feel my work cares more about me than how many hours I put on a timecard.
Also my pay has just SUBSTANTIALLY jumped from moving employers. It easily beat out crap annual raises each time. YMMV, and I recommend staying with an employer for at least 1.5 years just so it looks good on a resume.
Anyhow, spam post... who the fuck registers to post in ATOT to ask career life decisions?
Trying to move careers to entirely different skills is a lose-lose 90% of the time.
Just my opinion
Also, personally, I've hit that point in my career where I've reached my desired money. I can pay for a house, max out retirement benefits, set aside money for my kid's college fund, etc.... At this point, I have zero care to increase that amount because it will give me tons more risk that the replacement job will require more working hours, less time with family. A new industry will have an entirely different work culture - and plenty of those work cultures (based on my prior experience with consulting) comes with the risk of a work-culture where work is valued as more important than family. I'm finally in a place where I feel my work cares more about me than how many hours I put on a timecard.Also my pay has just SUBSTANTIALLY jumped from moving employers. It easily beat out crap annual raises each time. YMMV, and I recommend staying with an employer for at least 1.5 years just so it looks good on a resume.
Anyhow, spam post... who the fuck registers to post in ATOT to ask career life decisions?
I started at $46k with my first out of college job in 2010 (shortly after great recession).
2nd Job was a connection @ 65k - ended with ~$68.5k
3rd Job started @ 74k - ended with ~ $102k
4th and current job started at $150k.
That was all over the span of ~8 years.
Markfw
Moderator Emeritus, Elite Member
- May 16, 2002
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Different times. I was just estimating based on my experience. Yours sounds logical also. In High tech, a lot depends on how good you are.
Mine was actually more geared towards financial / consulting related.
I absolutely detested and hated the consulting world... But God damn it absolutely helped me beat other people's resumes when competing for jobs now because of those recognizable names.
Also is the last 8 years really different times? Did I not have the same labor force and employers that other millennials had?
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Markfw
Moderator Emeritus, Elite Member
- May 16, 2002
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Do you live in southern California ? If so, your money might be reasonable. In Oregon, that will NOT happen unless a miracle occurs.
BTW, I started college as an EE major. Computer science was required for my major, but I got hooked on it, then spent 34 years in IT, and ended up at about $130k (retired 3 years ago)
Markfw
Moderator Emeritus, Elite Member
- May 16, 2002
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No idea of income there. But I just know that income in CA is way more than Oregon. They sell their house down there for a million dollars, then move to Oregon, and buy one for 500k that bigger and nicer.
Good luck, but its a real chance you are taking.
BTW, I used to live in Rockford.....Many years ago
DigDog
Lifer
- Jun 3, 2011
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looks like you are doing pretty darn well on your CV. I would strongly suggest that you look for other opportunities in your field, but elsewhere, be it at a different role, different company, or even different country, and to do the learning-IT thing on your own dime. It may eventually pay off but it's unlikely that you would be able to just go into an IT career and expect to rise to any meaningful salary, that you couldn't otherwise top with your current line of work - even assuming you as just *that* smart and dedicated.
People who get paid a lot, they specialize - someone else will do the IT for them.
AUS/NZ and the middle east got some real $$$ opportunities for someone with highly specialized skills.
Platypus
Lifer
- Apr 26, 2001
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Some feedback for you based on personal experience:
I don't think you're delusional, but I do think what you're after is going to be more difficult salary wise in Chicago, but absolutely doable once you break into the field. Someone your age making what you likely make now, it's going to be hard to transition into a position writing code without any prior experience in it. It's a lot cheaper to pay people fresh out of school less and so there may be a pay difference for a while.
I think you picked some decent languages to look at on paper, but you should really ask yourself why you're doing this and what your actual passion is for it. Just learning languages isn't going to be enough. Why do you want to do that? What do you see yourself working on ultimately? I would really question this internally and push yourself to define it. Trying to get a well rounded skillset is a good idea, but it's aimless ultimately if you don't have an idea why you're doing it other than that.
I've worked extensively in Silicon Valley and all over the world for that matter, and my personal feeling is that it's a horrible dumpster fire and the culture is profoundly broken out there. I really hated going out there for work after a while. You can easily make the numbers you talked about there, but you'll be living in a shoebox, or in a strip mall suburb wasteland 45 min away from your job. I don't want to talk you out of it, but rather level set your expectations about what the culture is really like, and how life is out there.
I live in Chicago and also went to Purdue, though I am older than you are. My background is in computer security and vulnerability research. I've done extensive interviewing and hiring for technical positions and reviewed every possible programming language you can think of to do my job. I've also managed other technical people and helped people grow into all sorts of different positions and areas of focus. If you're near the city I'd be happy to grab a coffee and chat more in depth. DM or email is cool too.
deadlyapp
Diamond Member
- Apr 25, 2004
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My recommendation is this, and you may not like it. You are not going to get a job in that sector without a degree or experience. Unfortunately the talent pool is huge and as someone without much useful experience either in education or the workforce, you'll simply get passed over unless you have a connection to someone. Self taught software engineering is not sufficient for most recruiters/HR screens.
Your best bet is to try to leverage what you already know - this is your power engineering and electrical background, and try to bridge your gap by pivoting into a software engineering type role in that same field where they want someone who knows how it works and has some knowledge of software engineering. You'll still probably take a pay cut, but work there for a while while you get real software experience, perhaps at the same time taking classes at a college to get another major or minor in software engineering, and then springboard from that into a pure software role if you are still unhappy.
Your best bet is to try to leverage what you already know - this is your power engineering and electrical background, and try to bridge your gap by pivoting into a software engineering type role in that same field where they want someone who knows how it works and has some knowledge of software engineering. You'll still probably take a pay cut, but work there for a while while you get real software experience, perhaps at the same time taking classes at a college to get another major or minor in software engineering, and then springboard from that into a pure software role if you are still unhappy.
spacejamz
Lifer
- Mar 31, 2003
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Just wondering what the software engineering market will be like 5 years from now? 10 years from now? how much more of it will be outsourced? Pretty sure that some US companies will pay a premium to keep highly talented folks, but how many of those positions will be available versus how many would available to fill those spots?
my advice would be to at least consider an industry that is more difficult to outsource...I don't have any suggestions on that at the moment though...
my advice would be to at least consider an industry that is more difficult to outsource...I don't have any suggestions on that at the moment though...
If it's like the history of IT in general - I'd wager that eventually global outsourcing firms will takeover a lot of stuff.
It doesn't seem like anyone is following the concept that just because you pay for shit programmers to get a semi-functioning project doesn't mean it is a smart idea in the long-term. Companies are still too stupid and inept to calculate things like indirect costs related to data/network leaks and such.
clamum
Lifer
- Feb 13, 2003
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Hmmm. From what I've seen, as much as I can remember, if you don't have a degree in Computer Science they usually require you to have X years of experience in the field (lol, like a Catch 22 thing). Some companies would look favorably on projects (say, open source ones) you've worked on if you don't have an actual degree.
Now this is not for EVERY job position, but I think the majority of the ones I've seen are like this. I've been interviewing and looking at positions recently too. So six months of learning by yourself? I'm not sure that'll get you very far, even for a beginner job. But that's just my opinion.
EDIT: There's certainly positions out there that would take you. I still think six months isn't enough time for you to be knowledgeable enough about software development to beat out other candidates who might have some professional experience. Here's an intro developer job near me that would hire someone without a degree. But I don't think these are common:
I think if you work hard and learn a lot, and perhaps contribute to a project, you could certainly find one, especially in like a year. But I think just telling a hiring manager you've been learning yourself for six months isn't gonna be easy to land one.
Now this is not for EVERY job position, but I think the majority of the ones I've seen are like this. I've been interviewing and looking at positions recently too. So six months of learning by yourself? I'm not sure that'll get you very far, even for a beginner job. But that's just my opinion.
EDIT: There's certainly positions out there that would take you. I still think six months isn't enough time for you to be knowledgeable enough about software development to beat out other candidates who might have some professional experience. Here's an intro developer job near me that would hire someone without a degree. But I don't think these are common:
I think if you work hard and learn a lot, and perhaps contribute to a project, you could certainly find one, especially in like a year. But I think just telling a hiring manager you've been learning yourself for six months isn't gonna be easy to land one.
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purbeast0
No Lifer
- Sep 13, 2001
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It really depends. You sure are talking a big game but we'll see where it actually goes. Learning to code 45 hours a week on your spare time, to build up a github profile, just sounds like a pipe dream. You say you want to learn specific languages. Well you should learn how to program before you learn languages. There are a lot of concepts that you have to grasp before you should dive too deep into a language. But once you know "how" to program, then you become language agnostic. The technologies you are looking into are pretty decent/modern for webapp development.
As someone who is working with people in the ML field who has been doing software engineering for 17 years professionally, you are in for a rude awakening if you think you can just pick it up not knowing anything about programming.
There is a lot more to software development than just knowing how to program. You will feel like you know nothing when you start a "real" job. It's much different than doing your own projects on your own spare time or for school.
And keep in mind, age discrimination is a real thing. I am not so sure how many companies would be willing to hire 32 year old who is the same level as a college grad. In a sense it may be detrimental to a company because college grads aren't set in their ways yet so they can be groomed. It's must harder to change someone's ways in their 30's who have been in the real world for a decade than it is someone who is fresh out of school.
And a lot of job descriptions I've seen either require a CS degree or X amount of years experience in place of that, even at the entry level, which you have neither. I have worked with people who had EE degrees though at my first job out of school. So it just depends where you look and what you are getting into.
Your salary expectations completely depend on what you get into and where you live. It could be starting at $50k or $100k it just completely depends where you are and what you are getting into.
Not saying you can't do it, but just giving you some real world things to think about from someone in the industry for almost 2 decades.
As someone who is working with people in the ML field who has been doing software engineering for 17 years professionally, you are in for a rude awakening if you think you can just pick it up not knowing anything about programming.
There is a lot more to software development than just knowing how to program. You will feel like you know nothing when you start a "real" job. It's much different than doing your own projects on your own spare time or for school.
And keep in mind, age discrimination is a real thing. I am not so sure how many companies would be willing to hire 32 year old who is the same level as a college grad. In a sense it may be detrimental to a company because college grads aren't set in their ways yet so they can be groomed. It's must harder to change someone's ways in their 30's who have been in the real world for a decade than it is someone who is fresh out of school.
And a lot of job descriptions I've seen either require a CS degree or X amount of years experience in place of that, even at the entry level, which you have neither. I have worked with people who had EE degrees though at my first job out of school. So it just depends where you look and what you are getting into.
Your salary expectations completely depend on what you get into and where you live. It could be starting at $50k or $100k it just completely depends where you are and what you are getting into.
Not saying you can't do it, but just giving you some real world things to think about from someone in the industry for almost 2 decades.
snoopy7548
Diamond Member
- Jan 1, 2005
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These days most EEs also need to know at least some coding; I work in the power industry (not grid or transmission) and the engineers here spend about as much if not more time writing code as they do on hardware design and development.
There are always opportunities in any company to get "outside" of your field. I was working as a development engineer with no software work when I saw a need for automated testing, so I took it and ran with it, and now I'm in charge of automated testing for a good portion of our product line - I'm now almost 100% software.
There are always opportunities in any company to get "outside" of your field. I was working as a development engineer with no software work when I saw a need for automated testing, so I took it and ran with it, and now I'm in charge of automated testing for a good portion of our product line - I'm now almost 100% software.
purbeast0
No Lifer
- Sep 13, 2001
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Companies that outsource will fade away as their software turns to complete and utter shit. With software development, you get what you pay for.
Developers are a dime a dozen.
Rockstar developers are a needle in a haystack.
And a Rockstar developer making $200k/yr can most likely do a hell of a lot more than 2 developers making $100k/yr, and the 2 developers could potentially do more harm than good in the long term.
With software devs, you aren't investing in them short term - you are investing with them long term. It can take 6+ months to realize how shitty a developer is depending on their skill level. At that point you have wasted half a year salary and maybe even have more work now than you did before they started.
purbeast0
No Lifer
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snoopy7548
Diamond Member
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I've found that I'm actually incredibly good at it and I absolutely love doing it. Test automation can be tricky, since most people don't consider long-term support or how to make the software expandable from the start, but once you get that figured out (and I nearly went crazy during those couple of weeks) the rest is a breeze.
purbeast0
No Lifer
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It's just not fun to write tests lol. It can be fun for a little bit, but damn is it tedious and boring after a while. Glad you enjoy it!I've found that I'm actually incredibly good at it and I absolutely love doing it. Test automation can be tricky, since most people don't consider long-term support or how to make the software expandable from the start, but once you get that figured out (and I nearly went crazy during those couple of weeks) the rest is a breeze.
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