Switches and Layers: Home Network Help

[Freze]

I have just finished building a house, which I have been working on for 8 or so years. One thing that I have planned from the begining is the home network. Of course, networking technology has since changed and I have adapted my "wants" for that. My problems are in chosing. After building this house, I don't have too much money to spend, so I can't go for the top of the line parts.

I want to be able to share/stream data/videos/music/pictures through the network. I have a media center PC (connected to TV), a server (don't know what to do with it, P3 Xeon, got it when the IT guys were geting Woodcrest based ones...) and 5 desktops that need to be connected, and an additional 3 laptops (wifi). I don't want the desktops to be connected through WiFi. All the machines of course have to share an internet connection. Also, I would want to be able to have LAN multiplayer games.

My questions are:
1) Will I feel a difference between gigabit and 100mbps ethernet?
2) Will I need a Layer 2 or Layer 3 switch?
More will be added... I had some more but I forgot them...

My plan is like this: (possible???)

Internet/ISP> Modem> 16 port switch > Server
. > The 5 PCs
. > Media Center
. > WiFi access point > Laptops

Is this possible? Is it a good way to do it? Is there a beter way?

Thanks in advance, and sorry if this is written in a not-so-clear-way. I haven't gotten much sleep over the past week so I might have not explained things as well as I should have.

 

[InlineFive]

Has the house been pre-wired? If so, what class of ethernet cable did you use?

1) Unless the files you work with are excessively large I doubt you'll notice too much of a difference.
2) A simple layer 2 switch will be more than sufficient. Besides, you can grab cheap gigabit switches and a lot of PCs have gigabit now so really you could "upgrade" to gigabit for next to nothing.

Your plan looks good to me.

 

[Freze]

Thanks

We haven't exactly wired the network cabling. We have a tube with pieces of string, which means that we can easily pull the cables through. As for the size of the files, the biggest files will be probibly the streaming of a ripped DVD, maybe later HD movies. I want to be somewhat futureproof, but not spend too much on something I will never feel.

Out of my 7 (non-portable) machines (5+MCPC+server), 3 have gigabit for sure (I don't know about the server or the others).

My main question about Layer 2 is (and I don't know much about this, it is not my part of the industry) will I be able to connect a modem to it and have it share the internet conection to all the connected machines? I have only read a little bit on the matter (mainly on wikipedia to tell the truth) and some parts made it seem like you need a computer between the switch and the modem for Layer 2 switches. Again, I am probibly wrong, I don't know much about networking. What is the difference between Layer 2 and Layer 3?

 

[robmurphy]

Most modems that the ISP supply will only talk to 1 PC, so connecting the modem to the switch will not work.

What you need is a router conneced to the modem, and then use the LAN switch ports on the router, and if you need more then connect the switch to the LAN side of the router.

You do not need a layer 3 switch for what you want to do. A normal layer 2 (i.e. switches on MAC address) switch will do fine. Layer 3 switching is only needed when switching between different network IDs or different VLANs.

The router will provide access/switching between the ISP supplied IP address and the IP address used on the LAN side of the router. It should also act as a dhcp server so that PC/Laptop clients on the LAN side can use dhcp to setup their IP addresses.

Rob.

 

[Oakenfold]

Originally posted by: Freze What is the difference between Layer 2 and Layer 3?

Someone step in and correct me if I'm wrong on this as it's been a while since my Cisco 1 class. Layer 3 switches provide a routing function (packet priortization, QoS might be an example but once again it's been a while..), layer 2 (switching) is fine for what you are doing.
Your setup should include a router, perhaps your modem=router in your config.
ISP...Modem...Router..Switch...PC's

As others have said 10/100 should be fine, gigabit will benefit you if you are moving large files around, if you go that route get a switch that supports jumbo frames. Remember through your incoming pipe will limit the transfer rate of data the most. If you have the choice of laying cat6 or 5e go with 6, although 5e will suit your needs for some time to come. Also make sure to run a line for your WAP!

Someone else may have a better idea with the server but you have mentioned you aren't certain what it's going to be doing yet.

 

[spidey07]

Use cat6 wiring punched into cat6 keystone jacks
Use cat6 patch cables
Get jumbo frame capable managed switch and a decent router.

You're done. This really isn't that hard to do.

1) Yes, for video and transfers gig will be much faster. If you don't mind stepping into 1996 then by all means go with 100 meg ethernet and cat5 cabling.
2) You have no need for a layer3 switch.

As long as all your cabling is a star (meaning all cables terminate into a central patch panel) then you can do whatever you want. Every computer has a network card, plug those network cards into your switch and you're all set. Add an access point or a router acting like an access point for wireless.

I'm not trying to rant, but my BEST friend wouldn't listen to me and went out and wired things on his own in his new home. His excuses were "well I read" or "I heard". I had to go back and clean up his mess. Would you trust some yahoo on the intarweb telling you what to do for wiring your stove? "no need to worry about the wire, just hook it up, you'll be fine." Same thing with reading just about EVERYTHING network related on the intarweb.

If you don't know what you are doing, then listen to those that tell you how to do it properly. Of course I could be full of crap and just another yahoo. You never know.

 

[JackMDS]

Basic Entry Level look like this (corresponds the principle as post above by Oakenfold).

http://www.ezlan.net/network/router.jpg

If you want Giga you would have to connect a Giga Switch to the Router, and any Giga capable network computer would have to be connected to the Giga switch.

Would you benefit from te Giga? Yeah to some extend, local transfer between Giga capable computers would probably be x2 or a little more faster than 100Mb/sec.

Use keystone as mentioned above by Spidey, and connect the Networked devices with commercially made CAT6 cables to the wall mounted Keystone.

Here instructions for keystones, http://www.9thtee.com/networkingts.htm

 

[skyking]

We have a tube with pieces of string, which means that we can easily pull the cables through.

Be sure to pull as many wires to a location as you want *all at the same time*.
If you drag one wire in, and then another and another, you stand a very good chance of "burning" one of the first cables.
Burning occurs when a new wire is pulled across an earlier wire at a bend, and it can saw right through the sheath and some of the conductors in that first wire. The wire sliding over that one will be undamaged since the friction is spread along the whole length.
For that reason I suggest getting a couple of boxes of CAT6 as well as any phone wire you want to run, and drag it in as a unit.

 

[Freze]

Thanks everyone

So I should get a modem with a router built in and then connect that directly to the switch (as if it was just another computer). Is that right? I see that a Layer 2 switch is more than sufficiant for my needs. As for the cabling, I am going to be doing that with my father. He is a qualified electrician and he wired both the power and phone lines in my house and half the other houses in our area, so I assume he knows what he is doing . According to my plans, all the cabling is star, although, of course, you have a star inside the star for the wireless access point. All computers (except the laptops) are connected directly to the switch located in the room under the stairs, or Server and utilities room. I still have to see what to do with the server...

From what I understand I would probibly benifit from Gigabit and CAT6.

Does anyone know any good cheap gigabit switches (at least 16, because I am wiring a few extra places for future upgradability)? A friend of mine is going to the USA (I live outside the USA) next week, so I can ask him to get it if it is only avalible in the USA.

 

[Freze]

One more question: does brand matter? I know in some things it does, but in some any noname brand is the same as a big name. I am asking because I know of one noname brand that has a switch that might work, but it is a noname...

 

[tyanni]

I would not get a modem w\ a built in router.... Get a modem from your cable company, and then buy a separate router. This way, you get a better router, and if you have issues with either you can just swap them.

Tim

 

[Freze]

First of all, my internet provider is not cable.
Unless there is a router with 14 or more ethernet ports (I am wiring a few extra rooms for future purposes) I don't think a router is what I need. I think I would be better off with a switch. I already have a wireless access point to use, so I can use that. The only thing I will need a router for will be if my ISP's modem will not want to connect directly to the switch and will need a router or computer inbetween.

 

[skyking]

Any functional 16 port switch will work, but some may be a better value for your application.
Do you have the internet connection going already? Many ISP's give you a single port modem/router, and you won't need another router. Hook that up to your switch and go.
Give us a link of the switch you have in mind.

 

[Madwand1]

Originally posted by: Freze
Does anyone know any good cheap gigabit switches (at least 16, because I am wiring a few extra places for future upgradability)? A friend of mine is going to the USA (I live outside the USA) next week, so I can ask him to get it if it is only avalible in the USA.

"Good and cheap" and "gigabit" are controversial topics, so there's no consensus on the combination. For "cheap", you start with the likes of Netgear and Dell. Both have their supporters and detractors. I'd keep in mind that we're talking about a simple home network though -- some of the problems with such switches are due to complicated issues that might not turn up at home. You also typically can't just drop into a typical computer store and find 16 or 24 port gigabit switches, and if you do, you're likely to spend much more than you would otherwise.

Dell has an international presence, and their web-managed gigabit switches are often on sale, and then very competitively priced with even unmanaged gigabit switches with similar numbers of ports. E.g. the 2716. Don't buy it at full price because it's on sale very often. A target price would be around $200 USD. The Dells are also sometimes better priced outside the US. E.g. the 2716 is $209 CAD, and $215 USD, both sale prices. The similar 2724 is around $300.

I agree that your best effort should go into the wiring. If you don't like a certain switch, then you can dump it and get another one, at some cost of course. But if you don't like the wiring, it'll be a lot more work. Try to plan ahead and get the right number of ports and a switch with at least a brand name so that you have an idea of what it is and how well it works.

If you're willing to increase the budget off the very bottom, I'd suggest looking at the HP 1800-24 and Linksys SRW products (e.g. SRW2016/SRW2024). There is a cheaper non-managed SR series from Linksys which is also probably fine, though unmanaged.

 

[JackMDS]

Originally posted by: Freze
Thanks everyone

So I should get a modem with a router built in a.

No you should NOT. The Router part of the all combos is bellow the average mediocre Router.

Get a Modem and a stand alone good Wireless Router (http://www.ezlan.net/buffalo.html).

As for switches, look around for SMC Giga switches with Jumbo frame.

 

[tyanni]

Freze -

What you don't seem to understand is that unless your ISP gives you multiple IP addresses (rare) YOU HAVE TO HAVE A ROUTER. You can still get a switch and connect it to the router, which is what most people here are advocating...

 

[Freze]

No, I understand that. I need a router between my modem and my switch. I know that. My question is, should I get a modem-router from my ISP? I HAVE a Wireless Access Point to place in a more convinient location (modem, switch and everything in between will be in the basement, so I wouldn't want to place the WAP there). Will I really feel a difference in router performance if the router part is only routing to the switch?

 

[Freze]

Will this work?

.Internet/ISP> Modem >Router >16 port switch > Server
.....................................................................> The 5 PCs
.....................................................................> Media Center
.....................................................................> WiFi access point...... > Laptops

And this (nearly the same thing...) :

.Internet/ISP> Modem-Router >16 port switch > Server
...................................................................> The 5 PCs
...................................................................> Media Center
...................................................................> WiFi access point...... > Laptops

 

[JackMDS]

In principle both ways are OK.

First check the pay. I.e if you pay more either upfront or by rent for a Combo it might be unreasonably expensive fpr the long run.

Take into consideration that the Router part of a Combos usually sux, in most cases it is a very basic Router that is hard to configure.

The motivation of giving a combo by the ISPs is Not coz they want to be nice to people.

Software authentication of the conection (especaily DSLPPPOE) creates a lot of trouble and results in expensive support call.

So ISP found very basic "naked" combos that can be use to authenticate with hardware. It cost then $10 more than a Modem but saves a fortune on Support Calls.

Many people who have No choice and are receiving a combo by default disable the Router part and buy their own Router.

I am not tellng you what to do. Just gave you some of the facts. Make your own judgement according to your needs.

However make them based on technological considerations and Not because you happen to a have WAP, or and you want to save on one plastic box.

Giving your list of needs and the amount of computers, both wire and wireless, you need a god Router, and probably can get better Wireless service using both a Wireless Router and a WAP.

 

[warriorfan23]

so how'd this work out?