Question Suspecting 4k video throttling through AT&T DSL

[Golgatha]

I am having problems streaming UHD video on Vudu through my Roku Streaming Stick and XBox One S game console, and also seeing significant throughput decreases and ping increases when accessing Netflix servers. Whenever my network connects to Netflix servers through fast.com or I try and stream UHD video through Vudu (HDX seems to work fine), my entire connection sees a throughput decrease of about 50-75% (from ~80Mbps to around 20-40Mbps) and ping increases from ~20ms to 50-60ms across the entire Internet connection as monitored in real time on my desktop or laptop.


The Roku stick is getting a solid 30-40Mbps connection wirelessly, and my XBox One S is hard wired and getting the full 80+ Mbps when running their respective Internet connection tests while not doing any streaming. From my desktop computer, I can run a speed test on fast.com (owned by Netflix), wait for the connection to cease by monitoring my Ethernet connection through the Windows task manager, and watch in real time as my speedtest.net throughput directly to AT&T's servers gets cut as mentioned above. Is there some traffic shaping going on when accessing streaming video through AT&T, as this only seems to happen when using streaming video services (Steam and other gaming clients, file downloads, Google Drive, etc. all work at full speed)? Regardless of the reason, I'm unable to reliably stream video at higher bitrates (I should only need 25Mbps or so per stream), so any assistance I can get with this issue would be appreciated if there's something I'm missing here.

 

[SamirD]

Very interesting. Your testing seems pretty solid on proving there's some throttling going on. What type of Internet do you have from att?

 

[Golgatha]

Very interesting. Your testing seems pretty solid on proving there's some throttling going on. What type of Internet do you have from att?

I have their Internet 75 plan. It's an ADSL2+ bonded pair connection. Also, I posted in their forums almost verbatim what I have in my original post here, and the post was removed quite promptly. I suspect shenanigans.

 

[Golgatha]

Well, AT&T deleted my post for help with the issue twice now, so since my service is in Missouri, I wrote the AG regarding them possibly being in violation of state net neutrality laws under Missouri HB 391.

Edit: Well damn, it's a House Bill, but it hasn't passed yet. Boo!

 

[SamirD]

I think the way to definitely prove they're throttling is to use a vpn service to get around their filtering and see if you have any throttling that way. This is some dirty stuff--that bill is badly needed for the cheater isps!

Do you have another isp as a choice for comparison? That's another way to prove it. And I'd make a video and get it out on the internet. Of course, I would check att's terms of service to see if they're allowed to throttle--something tells me it's buried in there and they can. AT&T got smart after they got broken up in the 1980s and they're coming back with a vengeance.

 

[Golgatha]

I think the way to definitely prove they're throttling is to use a vpn service to get around their filtering and see if you have any throttling that way. This is some dirty stuff--that bill is badly needed for the cheater isps!

Do you have another isp as a choice for comparison? That's another way to prove it. And I'd make a video and get it out on the internet. Of course, I would check att's terms of service to see if they're allowed to throttle--something tells me it's buried in there and they can. AT&T got smart after they got broken up in the 1980s and they're coming back with a vengeance.

They can use "reasonable network management" and there's currently nothing illegal about what they're doing (assuming they are throttling) at the Federal or State levels yet due to Net Neutrality being repealed and lack of State laws on the books.

 

[Golgatha]

Here's some data from today (10/16)


I have some data from testing with and without a VPN connection active. The VPN encrypts all data, so AT&T can't see what website I'm connected to. The speed test to AT&T's Kansas City server was performed at https://www.speedtest.net/. The "AT&T after Fast.com" test is basically me doing a speed test on Fast.com, waiting for the network traffic to stop, and then performing a speed test to AT&T through speedtest.net. These results are nearly identical to what I saw while gathering data for my original post.

Website Name	VPN Mbps	Ping VPN ms	No VPN Mbps	Ping No VPN ms
Fast.com	75	51	42	19
AT&T	64	50	80	19
AT&T after Fast.com	67	51	20	60
VPN is based in Dallas, TX
Data collected on 10/16/2019

 

[SamirD]

They can use "reasonable network management" and there's currently nothing illegal about what they're doing (assuming they are throttling) at the Federal or State levels yet due to Net Neutrality being repealed and lack of State laws on the books.

Yeah, and legal or not, a lot of isps can use methods like that and get away with it. The absence of legal consequences has made even 'regulated' industries a mess of scams.

 

[SamirD]

Here's some data from today (10/16)


I have some data from testing with and without a VPN connection active. The VPN encrypts all data, so AT&T can't see what website I'm connected to. The speed test to AT&T's Kansas City server was performed at https://www.speedtest.net/. The "AT&T after Fast.com" test is basically me doing a speed test on Fast.com, waiting for the network traffic to stop, and then performing a speed test to AT&T through speedtest.net. These results are nearly identical to what I saw while gathering data for my original post.

Website Name	VPN Mbps	Ping VPN ms	No VPN Mbps	Ping No VPN ms
Fast.com	75	51	42	19
AT&T	64	50	80	19
AT&T after Fast.com	67	51	20	60
VPN is based in Dallas, TX
Data collected on 10/16/2019

Yep, looks like they're selectively throttling providers. I wonder if netflix would be willing to step in here since it will affect their customers?

Have you seen if netflix uhd looks good through the vpn? If so, I guess that's your answer for now.

 

[Golgatha]

I've been doing some more testing. I was able to view a UHD movie without interruption by setting up my laptop with a VPN connection, and then sharing the VPN connection with my XBox One by creating a wireless hotspot. When the XBox One is wired without the VPN connection, the movie is unwatchable.

Given this information, I have to conclude the issue is my network traffic is being prioritized at the central office, as Vudu works just fine through my VPN service.

 

[SamirD]

So the way to get some action on this is to report it to the companies who stand to lose the most--the netflix, vudu, et al. And in the meantime, I guess you need to either switch providers or have to use a vpn for uhd--ugh!

 

[WackyWRZ]

I've got AT&T Fiber Gig in NC and I get a ton of buffering on YouTube. Videos sometimes take 15s to load, and will fall back to 360p during playback. I am hardwired pulling 900+ on speed tests when this happens. Connecting to VPN everything works great, so I wouldn't doubt AT&T is throttling.

 

[Golgatha]

So the way to get some action on this is to report it to the companies who stand to lose the most--the netflix, vudu, et al. And in the meantime, I guess you need to either switch providers or have to use a vpn for uhd--ugh!

It sucks because I could only test Vudu, Private Internet Access is my VPN, and they are actively blocked by Netflix. I've contacted Netflix already and emailed a copy of the conversation transcript to myself, and I also made a complaint to the MO Attorney General's office.

 

[Golgatha]

I've got AT&T Fiber Gig in NC and I get a ton of buffering on YouTube. Videos sometimes take 15s to load, and will fall back to 360p during playback. I am hardwired pulling 900+ on speed tests when this happens. Connecting to VPN everything works great, so I wouldn't doubt AT&T is throttling.

Yes, they have every reason in the world to do this from a business perspective. Setting up their own streaming service ahead of competitors is probably reason #1.

WarnerMedia - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

AT&T’s WarnerMedia streaming service to cost “between $16 and $17 a month”

An odd price for an odd bundle

www.theverge.com

 

[mnewsham]

I've got AT&T Fiber Gig in NC and I get a ton of buffering on YouTube. Videos sometimes take 15s to load, and will fall back to 360p during playback. I am hardwired pulling 900+ on speed tests when this happens. Connecting to VPN everything works great, so I wouldn't doubt AT&T is throttling.

In this specific scenario, it could just be a peering issue.

Your VPN changes the routing to go through different peering points that aren't as congested, and once you're at the VPN, their routing to your destination will differ from your original ISPs route. It's likely your VPN has good peering to most major services, like youtube.

Used to happen with Verizon FiOS too, until they finally paid for beefier peering backhaul to those specific services.

So it's unlikely that your ISP is actually choosing to slow your traffic down so much as they're unwilling to invest in the proper hardware upgrades.

For Verizon if I watched youtube mid-day or late at night, there were no issues, but especially on friday evening, or saturday evening between 5pm and 8pm, youtube would buffer like crazy on even 480p or 360p res, on a 1gbps fiber link. Hopping on a VPN would instantly fix the issue.

 

[Muadib]

In this specific scenario, it could just be a peering issue.

Your VPN changes the routing to go through different peering points that aren't as congested, and once you're at the VPN, their routing to your destination will differ from your original ISPs route. It's likely your VPN has good peering to most major services, like youtube.

Used to happen with Verizon FiOS too, until they finally paid for beefier peering backhaul to those specific services.

So it's unlikely that your ISP is actually choosing to slow your traffic down so much as they're unwilling to invest in the proper hardware upgrades.

For Verizon if I watched youtube mid-day or late at night, there were no issues, but especially on friday evening, or saturday evening between 5pm and 8pm, youtube would buffer like crazy on even 480p or 360p res, on a 1gbps fiber link. Hopping on a VPN would instantly fix the issue.

I have had Fios for years, and have had no issues with either youtube or Netflix. Most of my movie watching was Friday night, I watch youtube at all hours. I had a VPN for the last 5 years, but only use it with my NAS.

 

[Golgatha]

In this specific scenario, it could just be a peering issue.

Your VPN changes the routing to go through different peering points that aren't as congested, and once you're at the VPN, their routing to your destination will differ from your original ISPs route. It's likely your VPN has good peering to most major services, like youtube.

Used to happen with Verizon FiOS too, until they finally paid for beefier peering backhaul to those specific services.

So it's unlikely that your ISP is actually choosing to slow your traffic down so much as they're unwilling to invest in the proper hardware upgrades.

For Verizon if I watched youtube mid-day or late at night, there were no issues, but especially on friday evening, or saturday evening between 5pm and 8pm, youtube would buffer like crazy on even 480p or 360p res, on a 1gbps fiber link. Hopping on a VPN would instantly fix the issue.

I get what you're saying, but when I connect to fast.com without my VPN active, everything slows down. Every connection to every site on the Internet. If it were only a backhaul issue, I should just notice the slow connection to Netflix and Vudu, not the entire Internet connection. It seems to me the slowdown is in direct response to me trying to reach a specific site on the Internet. Also, the speed of my connection returns pretty quickly once I close the web browser hitting fast.com or stop streaming from my devices.

 

[mnewsham]

I have had Fios for years, and have had no issues with either youtube or Netflix. Most of my movie watching was Friday night, I watch youtube at all hours. I had a VPN for the last 5 years, but only use it with my NAS.

Well yeah, because verizon has different peering depending on where on their network you are.

It's not as if ISP's only peers at a SINGLE location.

Especially ISPs like AT&T & Verizon that have huge chunks of their network scattered throughout the country instead of just in one area.

 

[Muadib]

Well yeah, because verizon has different peering depending on where on their network you are.

It's not as if ISP's only peers at a SINGLE location.

Especially ISPs like AT&T & Verizon that have huge chunks of their network scattered throughout the country instead of just in one area.

I'll have to take your word for it then. This part of NJ is very crowded though.

 

[mnewsham]

I'll have to take your word for it then. This part of NJ is very crowded though.

NJ has a ton of backhaul bandwidth cause of NYC and the various trans-atlantic cable connections there.

Washington DC area peers through Dulles datacenters. And as I said, they upgraded their peering several years ago so it hasn't happened in quite a while.

 

[Muadib]

NJ has a ton of backhaul bandwidth cause of NYC and the various trans-atlantic cable connections there.

Washington DC area peers through Dulles datacenters. And as I said, they upgraded their peering several years ago so it hasn't happened in quite a while.

Makes sense! Thanks for the info!

 

[mxnerd]

Sometimes my Chater internet will be extremely slow or not responsive. What I did is that I will set a static IP randomly in the IP range I got earlier for my router.

Of course it won't work. However once I reboot the modem & router, Charter will give me an IP from a totally different IP range from another state. Let's say it changes from California to Missouri, or Missouri back to California, (according to IP to DDNS name) and it will fix the internet problem. Apparently Charter gave me a new route whenever I did this.

Done this several times.

 

[Muadib]

Sometimes my Chater internet will be extremely slow or not responsive. What I did is that I will set a static IP randomly in the IP range I got earlier for my router.

Of course it won't work. However once I reboot the modem & router, Charter will give me an IP from a totally different IP range from another state. Let's say it changes from California to Missouri, or Missouri back to California, (according to IP to DDNS name) and it will fix the internet problem. Apparently Charter gave me a new route whenever I did this.

Done this several times.

That's a good trick. I'm moving into a Spectrum area, so I might need it.

 

[WackyWRZ]

Yes, they have every reason in the world to do this from a business perspective. Setting up their own streaming service ahead of competitors is probably reason #1.

WarnerMedia - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

AT&T’s WarnerMedia streaming service to cost “between $16 and $17 a month”

An odd price for an odd bundle

www.theverge.com

I can see this for TV service - but they're not gonna compete with YouTube.

In this specific scenario, it could just be a peering issue.

Your VPN changes the routing to go through different peering points that aren't as congested, and once you're at the VPN, their routing to your destination will differ from your original ISPs route. It's likely your VPN has good peering to most major services, like youtube.

Used to happen with Verizon FiOS too, until they finally paid for beefier peering backhaul to those specific services.

So it's unlikely that your ISP is actually choosing to slow your traffic down so much as they're unwilling to invest in the proper hardware upgrades.

For Verizon if I watched youtube mid-day or late at night, there were no issues, but especially on friday evening, or saturday evening between 5pm and 8pm, youtube would buffer like crazy on even 480p or 360p res, on a 1gbps fiber link. Hopping on a VPN would instantly fix the issue.

That was my other thought here. I am guessing the peering and routing is ultimately based on traffic content? Using a different DNS provider probably wouldn't get around this would it? I've read that certain DNS is better at getting better routes based on Geolocation - not sure if that applies here.

 

[Golgatha]

I can see this for TV service - but they're not gonna compete with YouTube.



That was my other thought here. I am guessing the peering and routing is ultimately based on traffic content? Using a different DNS provider probably wouldn't get around this would it? I've read that certain DNS is better at getting better routes based on Geolocation - not sure if that applies here.

I tried manually setting the DNS to Google's DNS servers. It didn't help.