Survey of Sorts: Are you a Millennial? Is this how you think?

GTaudiophile

Lifer
Oct 24, 2000
29,767
33
81

Senator Barack Obama has tapped into a generation that is in danger of being left out of the American dream.

Do you feel you will be left out of the "American Dream"? (Whatever that is.)

An important aspect of the presidential race so far has been the generational divide, with Barack Obama doing very well with younger voters and Hillary Clinton drawing strong support from those who are older. A similar split can be expected in a general election race between Senator Obama and John McCain.

However the election ultimately turns out, the Obama campaign has tapped into a constituency that holds powerful implications for the future of American politics. The youngest of these voters, those ranging in age from roughly the late teens to the early 30s, are part of the so-called millennial generation.

Are you between the ages of 18 and 35?

This is a generation that is in danger of being left out of the American dream -- the first American generation to do less well economically than their parents. And that economic uncertainty appears to have played a big role in shaping their views of government and politics.

Are you doing worse than your parents were at your age?

A number of studies, including new ones by the Center for American Progress in Washington and by Demos, a progressive think tank in New York, have shown that Americans in this age group are faced with a variety of challenges that are tougher than those faced by young adults over the past few decades. Among the challenges are worsening job prospects, lower rates of health insurance coverage and higher levels of debt.

Are you having a hard time finding a job? Do you have poor health care? Is your personal debt ruling your life with no end in sight?

We know that the generation immediately preceding the Millennials is struggling. Men who are now in their 30s, the prime age for raising a family, earn less money than members of their fathers? generation did at the same age. In 1974, the median income for men in their 30s (using today?s inflation-adjusted dollars) was about $40,000. The figure for men in their 30s now is $35,000.

It?s not hard to understand why surveys show that overwhelming percentages of Americans believe the country is on the wrong track. The American dream is on life support. Polls show that dwindling numbers of Americans (in some cases as few as a third of all respondents) believe their children will end up better off than they are.

The upshot of all this is ominous for conservatives. The number of young people in the millennial generation (loosely defined as those born in the 1980s and 90s) is somewhere between 80 million and 95 million. That represents a ton of potential votes -- in this election and years to come. And the American Progress study shows that those young people do not feel that they have been treated kindly by conservative policies or principles.

Too bad these conservative principles have been ruined by the current Administration.

According to the study: ?Millennials mostly reject the conservative viewpoint that government is the problem, and that free markets always produce the best results for society. Indeed, Millennials? views are more progressive than those of other age groups today, and are more progressive than previous generations when they were younger.?

Do you believe government is the solution? (I sure as fvck think it's the problem. Not that anarchy where Big Business has free reign is good either.)

The Demos study pointed to the very difficult employment environment confronting young adults. Fewer jobs offer the benefits of paid vacations, health coverage or pensions. And moving up the employment ladder is much harder.

Are you facing fewer benefits? Are you having problem moving up the ladder?

As the study noted, ?The well-paying middle-management jobs that characterized the work force up to the late-1970s have been eviscerated.?

The longer-term outlook is depressing.

At the moment is it, sure. Will we rebound? I think it will. America is not dead, and China and India will not rule the world tomorrow.

Except for the expected continuing demand for registered nurses, the occupations projected to add the most jobs over the next several years do not offer much in the way of pay, benefits or career advancement. Demos listed the top five occupations in terms of anticipated job growth: registered nurses, retail sales, customer service reps, food preparers and office clerks.

Often saddled with debt, and with their job prospects gloomy, young Americans feel their government ought to be doing more to enhance their prospects. They want increased investments in education, health care and initiatives aimed at expanding the economy and fostering the growth of good jobs.

Do you want a Nanny State? Do you want tell the government: "I'm sorry, I failed, I can't handle life on my own. Can I please have some money?"

The American Progress study found that Millennials are more likely to support universal health coverage than any other age group over the past 30 years. By huge percentages, they want improvements in health coverage and support for education, even if it means increases in taxes.

Do you want higher taxes?

The landscape is changing before our eyes. Younger voters struggling with the enormous costs of a college education, or trying to raise families in a bleak employment environment, or using their credit cards to cover everyday expenses like food or energy costs are not much interested in hearing that the government to which they pay taxes can do little or nothing to help them.

I use my Miles Credit Card on EVERYTHING because I want the miles. So are they saying that's indicative of someone who can't make it from paycheck to paycheck?

Whether young Americans can shift the balance of the presidential election is an open question. But there is very little doubt that over the next several years they are capable of loosening the tremendous grip that conservatives have had on the levers of American power.

SOURCE

 

nageov3t

Lifer
Feb 18, 2004
42,808
83
91
I can never keep track of where Gen X ends and the "millennials" (if that's what we're calling them/us) begins.
 

GTaudiophile

Lifer
Oct 24, 2000
29,767
33
81
Originally posted by: loki8481
I can never keep track of where Gen X ends and the "millennials" (if that's what we're calling them/us) begins.

You just fit where the media says you fit.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
81
If anyone remembers the Q&A with the candidates on MTV, the vast majority of the questions were basically "what can the gov't do to help me."

It was kinda funny when it was Ron Paul's turn. :laugh:
 

Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,829
3
0
I thought this was going to be about the end times and having as much sex as possible before the Mayan prophecies come true.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
Someone has to be the lucky smucks who get to pay off all the money we have been borrowing from Social security for all those years. At exactly the same time there will be like only a few workers to support every retiree.

A truly blessed generation who will certainly revive the Chinese concept of ancestor worship. At a certain point, selling America back to the American Indians for $24.00 in glass beads will look like a bargain.
 

GTaudiophile

Lifer
Oct 24, 2000
29,767
33
81
Originally posted by: Lemon law
Someone has to be the lucky smucks who get to pay off all the money we have been borrowing from Social security for all those years. At exactly the same time there will be like only a few workers to support every retiree.

A truly blessed generation who will certainly revive the Chinese concept of ancestor worship. At a certain point, selling America back to the American Indians for $24.00 in glass beads will look like a bargain.

True. The generations before us have created the perfect storm for the future.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
81
Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
Originally posted by: Lemon law
Someone has to be the lucky smucks who get to pay off all the money we have been borrowing from Social security for all those years. At exactly the same time there will be like only a few workers to support every retiree.

A truly blessed generation who will certainly revive the Chinese concept of ancestor worship. At a certain point, selling America back to the American Indians for $24.00 in glass beads will look like a bargain.

True. The generations before us have created the perfect storm for the future.

Perhaps they were too busy watching the Andy Griffith Show and reading books about futuristic microprocessors to worry about what the government was actually doing.

:p
 

IGBT

Lifer
Jul 16, 2001
17,976
141
106
Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
Originally posted by: loki8481
I can never keep track of where Gen X ends and the "millennials" (if that's what we're calling them/us) begins.

You just fit where the media says you fit.

..they do a great job of brain washing, don't they?? Shut the tv off for a better life.

 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
Are you nuts bamacre when you say----Perhaps they were too busy watching the Andy Griffith Show and reading books about futuristic microprocessors to worry about what the government was actually doing.

You are more describing their parents than you are describing the real victims. If the real victims had any self awareness on the day they were born, they would crawl right back into the the womb and says hell no I will not go.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,812
6,777
126
A might tide of change is coming to sweep the past away. The hippies cracked the door but the new wave will blow it away. All the ideals you've been brainwashed to hold are just rubbish, a logjam, damn of illusions that will blind only you. Good bye and good luck.

The flopping fish becomes dinner.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
A might tide of change is coming to sweep the past away. The hippies cracked the door but the new wave will blow it away. All the ideals you've been brainwashed to hold are just rubbish, a logjam, damn of illusions that will blind only you. Good bye and good luck.

The flopping fish becomes dinner.

I will ask you only one question Moonbeam. In all your past collective angling experience, have you ever caught a sturgeon? I for one, think not. Or you would not so casually cast out that vision of a mere flopping fish.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,812
6,777
126
Originally posted by: Lemon law
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
A might tide of change is coming to sweep the past away. The hippies cracked the door but the new wave will blow it away. All the ideals you've been brainwashed to hold are just rubbish, a logjam, damn of illusions that will blind only you. Good bye and good luck.

The flopping fish becomes dinner.

I will ask you only one question Moonbeam. In all your past collective angling experience, have you ever caught a sturgeon? I for one, think not. Or you would not so casually cast out that vision of a mere flopping fish.

You are too deep for me so I don't know what you're taking about.

And thanks to the disease of the brainwashed who damn the door, all the local sturgeon I could see swimming in the moonlight are gone as are the millions of smelt that also were there. Everywhere the world is dying, have you noticed? The salmon are gone too.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
81
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: Lemon law
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
A might tide of change is coming to sweep the past away. The hippies cracked the door but the new wave will blow it away. All the ideals you've been brainwashed to hold are just rubbish, a logjam, damn of illusions that will blind only you. Good bye and good luck.

The flopping fish becomes dinner.

I will ask you only one question Moonbeam. In all your past collective angling experience, have you ever caught a sturgeon? I for one, think not. Or you would not so casually cast out that vision of a mere flopping fish.

You are too deep for me so I don't know what you're taking about.

And thanks to the disease of the brainwashed who damn the door, all the local sturgeon I could see swimming in the moonlight are gone as are the millions of smelt that also were there. Everywhere the world is dying, have you noticed? The salmon are gone too.

Hey, there's nothing wrong with a little salmon. As long as it isn't over-cooked.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: Lemon law
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
A might tide of change is coming to sweep the past away. The hippies cracked the door but the new wave will blow it away. All the ideals you've been brainwashed to hold are just rubbish, a logjam, damn of illusions that will blind only you. Good bye and good luck.

The flopping fish becomes dinner.

I will ask you only one question Moonbeam. In all your past collective angling experience, have you ever caught a sturgeon? I for one, think not. Or you would not so casually cast out that vision of a mere flopping fish.

You are too deep for me so I don't know what you're taking about.

And thanks to the disease of the brainwashed who damn the door, all the local sturgeon I could see swimming in the moonlight are gone as are the millions of smelt that also were there. Everywhere the world is dying, have you noticed? The salmon are gone too.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In other words I am right. You have never caught a sturgeon. How can you claim to have been anywhere without that vital life experience? You should correct that deficiency before I can possibly explain it to you.

But suffice it so say, GWB&co is to humans as sturgeons are to fishes with backbones and brains.

Like all living creatures they are equal in death, but while alive their adaptive responses are totally different.
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
Spoiled little worthless assholes who believe the government should always be there to coddle them and ensure they never truly fail?! say it aint so!

the next generation will be even worse.. kids aren't even allowed to play tag or dodgeball anymore... and heaven forbid some sports team doesnt accept every person who tries out for the team... that there is lawsuit material! Someone's gettin' fired baby!!

bah... losers... too many fucking losers.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,063
55,570
136
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Spoiled little worthless assholes who believe the government should always be there to coddle them and ensure they never truly fail?! say it aint so!

the next generation will be even worse.. kids aren't even allowed to play tag or dodgeball anymore... and heaven forbid some sports team doesnt accept every person who tries out for the team... that there is lawsuit material! Someone's gettin' fired baby!!

bah... losers... too many fucking losers.

"Children today are tyrants. They contradict their parents, gobble their food, and tyrannize their teachers."

- Socrates

The next generation is always going to hell in a handbasket according to the old people. And yet... here we are.
 

Martin

Lifer
Jan 15, 2000
29,178
1
81
Good post, I am actually gonna bother writing something here, since this has actually been a topic of conversation between me and my "millenial" friends.

The basic truth, supported by a mountain of evidence, is that the last 30-40 years have been a pretty shitty time for ordinary people. Real median incomes for working men have fallen, median household income has held steady but only because more women have started working. At the same time the cost of many things has increased drastically - post-secondary schooling is far more important and costly today than it was in the past, real median house prices have increased while median incomes have not and so the picture isn't rosy.

Let's not beat around the bush and pretend this isn't modern conservatism's fault. It is, because one of it's central tenets is the explosion of income inequality seen over the last few decades. The US in particular has gone from having a gini index in the low 30s to having one in the mid 40s today - which is same level as in China. The problem isn't capitalism - capitalism is a tool that can be customized greatly and is extremely useful. Its that instead of using capitalism to build a better society that is more meritocratic and that serve's everyone interests and moves everyone forward they use it to build a nasty dog-eat-dog, every-man-for-himself society.

The result is that unless they were born into the upper classes, people my age (I'm 24) have it harder than their parents - they have to go into debt to go to school, they have to live at home far, far longer than their parents had to, they can't afford their own place and after all this they get can to the same place their parents did. What really fucking annoys me is when you see some of the older jackasses in ATOT talk about how they moved out and got a place when they were 19 or whatever and how kids today live at home until they are 25. These jackasses had it easy, their collective decisions made life harder for young poeple today and then they have the gall to make fun of people today.

Now one line of thinking that conservatives love to parrot is the "But you have it way better than your parents, look at all the extra stuff and powerful computers you have that they didn't" line. It sounds nice, but its just one big distraction - yes technology has caused many things to become cheaper, but it has little to do with what we're talking about since had we not had this explosion of inequality we would have had both cheaper tech AND bigger incomes and easier lives.


I spoke in these generalities first, because its important to look at what happens in society at large and not one person in particular. But since you ask and I'm in your target demographic, I'll tell you about myself and my friends.

Yes, I am doing better than my parents were, but this isn't much of an achievement since they grew up in 70s communist Bulgaria. At 24 I am doing well compared to both current and previous generations, but that hasn't exactly been easy - I have a professional degree from a top university, I've worked almost continuously since I was 15, I've lived at home for a long, long time and I've been saving like fucking scrooge for so long I can list all the things I own on the fingers of one hand.

The situation is largely mirrored amongst my close friends (all 23-25 yo) - everybody had to work hard, most people lived at home during university (many of them are still in school in some kind of further education - grad school, dentistry, medicine etc) and amongst the 12-15 people I am talking about only 1 had her own place and only 2 have their own cars with everybody else still living like they were in fucking high school.

So yes, people do get mad they must have it harder than people before them, especially since the rhetoric is quite the opposite of reality. And its likely you'll see a change because at one point people will realize they're getting fucked and will stop being so easily persuaded by distractions and rhetoric.
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
Originally posted by: Martin
Good post, I am actually gonna bother writing something here, since this has actually been a topic of conversation between me and my "millenial" friends.

The basic truth, supported by a mountain of evidence, is that the last 30-40 years have been a pretty shitty time for ordinary people. Real median incomes for working men have fallen, median household income has held steady but only because more women have started working. At the same time the cost of many things has increased drastically - post-secondary schooling is far more important and costly today than it was in the past, real median house prices have increased while median incomes have not and so the picture isn't rosy.

Let's not beat around the bush and pretend this isn't modern conservatism's fault. It is, because one of it's central tenets is the explosion of income inequality seen over the last few decades. The US in particular has gone from having a gini index in the low 30s to having one in the mid 40s today - which is same level as in China. The problem isn't capitalism - capitalism is a tool that can be customized greatly and is extremely useful. Its that instead of using capitalism to build a better society that is more meritocratic and that serve's everyone interests and moves everyone forward they use it to build a nasty dog-eat-dog, every-man-for-himself society.

The result is that unless they were born into the upper classes, people my age (I'm 24) have it harder than their parents - they have to go into debt to go to school, they have to live at home far, far longer than their parents had to, they can't afford their own place and after all this they get can to the same place their parents did. What really fucking annoys me is when you see some of the older jackasses in ATOT talk about how they moved out and got a place when they were 19 or whatever and how kids today live at home until they are 25. These jackasses had it easy, their collective decisions made life harder for young poeple today and then they have the gall to make fun of people today.

Now one line of thinking that conservatives love to parrot is the "But you have it way better than your parents, look at all the extra stuff and powerful computers you have that they didn't" line. It sounds nice, but its just one big distraction - yes technology has caused many things to become cheaper, but it has little to do with what we're talking about since had we not had this explosion of inequality we would have had both cheaper tech AND bigger incomes and easier lives.

I spoke in these generalities first, because its important to look at what happens in society at large and not one person in particular. But since you ask and I'm in your target demographic, I'll tell you about myself and my friends.

Yes, I am doing better than my parents were, but this isn't much of an achievement since they grew up in 70s communist Bulgaria. At 24 I am doing well compared to both current and previous generations, but that hasn't exactly been easy - I have a professional degree from a top university, I've worked almost continuously since I was 15, I've lived at home for a long, long time and I've been saving like fucking scrooge for so long I can list all the things I own on the fingers of one hand.

The situation is largely mirrored amongst my close friends (all 23-25 yo) - everybody had to work hard, most people lived at home during university (many of them are still in school in some kind of further education - grad school, dentistry, medicine etc) and amongst the 12-15 people I am talking about only 1 had her own place and only 2 have their own cars with everybody else still living like they were in fucking high school.

So yes, people do get mad they must have it harder than people before them, especially since the rhetoric is quite the opposite of reality. And its likely you'll see a change because at one point people will realize they're getting fucked and will stop being so easily persuaded by distractions and rhetoric.

Are you looking for, or calling for, further assistance from the government(s)? yes/no
 

ZebuluniteV

Member
Aug 23, 2007
165
0
0
Originally posted by: Martin
Good post, I am actually gonna bother writing something here, since this has actually been a topic of conversation between me and my "millenial" friends.

The basic truth, supported by a mountain of evidence, is that the last 30-40 years have been a pretty shitty time for ordinary people. Real median incomes for working men have fallen, median household income has held steady but only because more women have started working. At the same time the cost of many things has increased drastically - post-secondary schooling is far more important and costly today than it was in the past, real median house prices have increased while median incomes have not and so the picture isn't rosy.

Let's not beat around the bush and pretend this isn't modern conservatism's fault. It is, because one of it's central tenets is the explosion of income inequality seen over the last few decades. The US in particular has gone from having a gini index in the low 30s to having one in the mid 40s today - which is same level as in China. The problem isn't capitalism - capitalism is a tool that can be customized greatly and is extremely useful. Its that instead of using capitalism to build a better society that is more meritocratic and that serve's everyone interests and moves everyone forward they use it to build a nasty dog-eat-dog, every-man-for-himself society.

The result is that unless they were born into the upper classes, people my age (I'm 24) have it harder than their parents - they have to go into debt to go to school, they have to live at home far, far longer than their parents had to, they can't afford their own place and after all this they get can to the same place their parents did. What really fucking annoys me is when you see some of the older jackasses in ATOT talk about how they moved out and got a place when they were 19 or whatever and how kids today live at home until they are 25. These jackasses had it easy, their collective decisions made life harder for young poeple today and then they have the gall to make fun of people today.

Now one line of thinking that conservatives love to parrot is the "But you have it way better than your parents, look at all the extra stuff and powerful computers you have that they didn't" line. It sounds nice, but its just one big distraction - yes technology has caused many things to become cheaper, but it has little to do with what we're talking about since had we not had this explosion of inequality we would have had both cheaper tech AND bigger incomes and easier lives.


I spoke in these generalities first, because its important to look at what happens in society at large and not one person in particular. But since you ask and I'm in your target demographic, I'll tell you about myself and my friends.

Yes, I am doing better than my parents were, but this isn't much of an achievement since they grew up in 70s communist Bulgaria. At 24 I am doing well compared to both current and previous generations, but that hasn't exactly been easy - I have a professional degree from a top university, I've worked almost continuously since I was 15, I've lived at home for a long, long time and I've been saving like fucking scrooge for so long I can list all the things I own on the fingers of one hand.

The situation is largely mirrored amongst my close friends (all 23-25 yo) - everybody had to work hard, most people lived at home during university (many of them are still in school in some kind of further education - grad school, dentistry, medicine etc) and amongst the 12-15 people I am talking about only 1 had her own place and only 2 have their own cars with everybody else still living like they were in fucking high school.

So yes, people do get mad they must have it harder than people before them, especially since the rhetoric is quite the opposite of reality. And its likely you'll see a change because at one point people will realize they're getting fucked and will stop being so easily persuaded by distractions and rhetoric.

Good post Martin, especially the bolded part. The most galling thing is that I've seen some people (here and elsewhere) actually point at high income inequality and claim that is a good thing: that it equals freedom and so forth. Yeah, try telling that to a single mother barely scrapping with a full time job, or increasingly even upper middle-class families struggling with college expenses and etc.
 

ZebuluniteV

Member
Aug 23, 2007
165
0
0
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Originally posted by: Martin
Good post, I am actually gonna bother writing something here, since this has actually been a topic of conversation between me and my "millenial" friends.

The basic truth, supported by a mountain of evidence, is that the last 30-40 years have been a pretty shitty time for ordinary people. Real median incomes for working men have fallen, median household income has held steady but only because more women have started working. At the same time the cost of many things has increased drastically - post-secondary schooling is far more important and costly today than it was in the past, real median house prices have increased while median incomes have not and so the picture isn't rosy.

Let's not beat around the bush and pretend this isn't modern conservatism's fault. It is, because one of it's central tenets is the explosion of income inequality seen over the last few decades. The US in particular has gone from having a gini index in the low 30s to having one in the mid 40s today - which is same level as in China. The problem isn't capitalism - capitalism is a tool that can be customized greatly and is extremely useful. Its that instead of using capitalism to build a better society that is more meritocratic and that serve's everyone interests and moves everyone forward they use it to build a nasty dog-eat-dog, every-man-for-himself society.

The result is that unless they were born into the upper classes, people my age (I'm 24) have it harder than their parents - they have to go into debt to go to school, they have to live at home far, far longer than their parents had to, they can't afford their own place and after all this they get can to the same place their parents did. What really fucking annoys me is when you see some of the older jackasses in ATOT talk about how they moved out and got a place when they were 19 or whatever and how kids today live at home until they are 25. These jackasses had it easy, their collective decisions made life harder for young poeple today and then they have the gall to make fun of people today.

Now one line of thinking that conservatives love to parrot is the "But you have it way better than your parents, look at all the extra stuff and powerful computers you have that they didn't" line. It sounds nice, but its just one big distraction - yes technology has caused many things to become cheaper, but it has little to do with what we're talking about since had we not had this explosion of inequality we would have had both cheaper tech AND bigger incomes and easier lives.

I spoke in these generalities first, because its important to look at what happens in society at large and not one person in particular. But since you ask and I'm in your target demographic, I'll tell you about myself and my friends.

Yes, I am doing better than my parents were, but this isn't much of an achievement since they grew up in 70s communist Bulgaria. At 24 I am doing well compared to both current and previous generations, but that hasn't exactly been easy - I have a professional degree from a top university, I've worked almost continuously since I was 15, I've lived at home for a long, long time and I've been saving like fucking scrooge for so long I can list all the things I own on the fingers of one hand.

The situation is largely mirrored amongst my close friends (all 23-25 yo) - everybody had to work hard, most people lived at home during university (many of them are still in school in some kind of further education - grad school, dentistry, medicine etc) and amongst the 12-15 people I am talking about only 1 had her own place and only 2 have their own cars with everybody else still living like they were in fucking high school.

So yes, people do get mad they must have it harder than people before them, especially since the rhetoric is quite the opposite of reality. And its likely you'll see a change because at one point people will realize they're getting fucked and will stop being so easily persuaded by distractions and rhetoric.

Are you looking for, or calling for, further assistance from the government(s)? yes/no

Well, I can't (obviously) answer for Martin, but for me I think things would be far better for the country as a whole if college education was heavily subsidized. I mean, there seems to be something seriously wrong with society when the large majority of college students, who will be driving the national economy for decades to come, are leaving college with huge debts. Not to mention the crippling effect such debt has on their families, and the lost opportunities of those students capable mentally but not financially of going to college.

In some ways I think such problems are a product of American society- not originating, of course, in the conservative movement of the last few decades, but certainly rising to a ridiculous degree then. I mean, how is it that a large segment of the population seems to not care much the Iraq War, which will cost trillions when all is said and done, yet complains about spending a minuscule portion of that on "socialized medicine". The debate on expanding schips coverage several months back is emblematic of that - Bush and many Republicans complained about spending ~$30 billion on expanding schips coverage (that would have been funding via tax raises on tobacco and etc), threatening to veto such an expansion, yet within the very same week Bush asked for nearly double that amount to piss away in Iraq (being spent on credit, verses directly paid for of course)!

No to derail too far into the Iraq war, I think a general problem in society is the black and white view of taxation, while at the same time the American public as a whole favors social programs (well, those seen as going towards the "deserving" verses the "lazy"). Look at Hurricane Katrina - virtually all Americans supported the government taking an active role, and yet I'm sure a huge segment of the population simultaneously was, and is, in opposition to paying higher taxes (there is of course the issue of government incompetence arising from Bush's blatant cronyism and favoring certain businesses, but that obviously is way off topic).
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
Originally posted by: ZebuluniteV
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Originally posted by: Martin
Good post, I am actually gonna bother writing something here, since this has actually been a topic of conversation between me and my "millenial" friends.

The basic truth, supported by a mountain of evidence, is that the last 30-40 years have been a pretty shitty time for ordinary people. Real median incomes for working men have fallen, median household income has held steady but only because more women have started working. At the same time the cost of many things has increased drastically - post-secondary schooling is far more important and costly today than it was in the past, real median house prices have increased while median incomes have not and so the picture isn't rosy.

Let's not beat around the bush and pretend this isn't modern conservatism's fault. It is, because one of it's central tenets is the explosion of income inequality seen over the last few decades. The US in particular has gone from having a gini index in the low 30s to having one in the mid 40s today - which is same level as in China. The problem isn't capitalism - capitalism is a tool that can be customized greatly and is extremely useful. Its that instead of using capitalism to build a better society that is more meritocratic and that serve's everyone interests and moves everyone forward they use it to build a nasty dog-eat-dog, every-man-for-himself society.

The result is that unless they were born into the upper classes, people my age (I'm 24) have it harder than their parents - they have to go into debt to go to school, they have to live at home far, far longer than their parents had to, they can't afford their own place and after all this they get can to the same place their parents did. What really fucking annoys me is when you see some of the older jackasses in ATOT talk about how they moved out and got a place when they were 19 or whatever and how kids today live at home until they are 25. These jackasses had it easy, their collective decisions made life harder for young poeple today and then they have the gall to make fun of people today.

Now one line of thinking that conservatives love to parrot is the "But you have it way better than your parents, look at all the extra stuff and powerful computers you have that they didn't" line. It sounds nice, but its just one big distraction - yes technology has caused many things to become cheaper, but it has little to do with what we're talking about since had we not had this explosion of inequality we would have had both cheaper tech AND bigger incomes and easier lives.

I spoke in these generalities first, because its important to look at what happens in society at large and not one person in particular. But since you ask and I'm in your target demographic, I'll tell you about myself and my friends.

Yes, I am doing better than my parents were, but this isn't much of an achievement since they grew up in 70s communist Bulgaria. At 24 I am doing well compared to both current and previous generations, but that hasn't exactly been easy - I have a professional degree from a top university, I've worked almost continuously since I was 15, I've lived at home for a long, long time and I've been saving like fucking scrooge for so long I can list all the things I own on the fingers of one hand.

The situation is largely mirrored amongst my close friends (all 23-25 yo) - everybody had to work hard, most people lived at home during university (many of them are still in school in some kind of further education - grad school, dentistry, medicine etc) and amongst the 12-15 people I am talking about only 1 had her own place and only 2 have their own cars with everybody else still living like they were in fucking high school.

So yes, people do get mad they must have it harder than people before them, especially since the rhetoric is quite the opposite of reality. And its likely you'll see a change because at one point people will realize they're getting fucked and will stop being so easily persuaded by distractions and rhetoric.

Are you looking for, or calling for, further assistance from the government(s)? yes/no

Well, I can't (obviously) answer for Martin, but for me I think things would be far better for the country as a whole if college education was heavily subsidized. I mean, there seems to be something seriously wrong with society when the large majority of college students, who will be driving the national economy for decades to come, are leaving college with huge debts. Not to mention the crippling effect such debt has on their families, and the lost opportunities of those students capable mentally but not financially of going to college.

In some ways I think such problems are a product of American society- not originating, of course, in the conservative movement of the last few decades, but certainly rising to a ridiculous degree then. I mean, how is it that a large segment of the population seems to not care much the Iraq War, which will cost trillions when all is said and done, yet complains about spending a minuscule portion of that on "socialized medicine". The debate on expanding schips coverage several months back is emblematic of that - Bush and many Republicans complained about spending ~$30 billion on expanding schips coverage (that would have been funding via tax raises on tobacco and etc), threatening to veto such an expansion, yet within the very same week Bush asked for nearly double that amount to piss away in Iraq (being spent on credit, verses directly paid for of course)!

Well I, for one, do appreciate the extra ammunition and body armor you bought for me -- so thank you. I hope I didn't put you out, or anything...

As for more subsidies, of any kind, forget it.

Smaller government -- fewer programs -- FTW.
 

Martin

Lifer
Jan 15, 2000
29,178
1
81
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Originally posted by: Martin
Good post, I am actually gonna bother writing something here, since this has actually been a topic of conversation between me and my "millenial" friends.

The basic truth, supported by a mountain of evidence, is that the last 30-40 years have been a pretty shitty time for ordinary people. Real median incomes for working men have fallen, median household income has held steady but only because more women have started working. At the same time the cost of many things has increased drastically - post-secondary schooling is far more important and costly today than it was in the past, real median house prices have increased while median incomes have not and so the picture isn't rosy.

Let's not beat around the bush and pretend this isn't modern conservatism's fault. It is, because one of it's central tenets is the explosion of income inequality seen over the last few decades. The US in particular has gone from having a gini index in the low 30s to having one in the mid 40s today - which is same level as in China. The problem isn't capitalism - capitalism is a tool that can be customized greatly and is extremely useful. Its that instead of using capitalism to build a better society that is more meritocratic and that serve's everyone interests and moves everyone forward they use it to build a nasty dog-eat-dog, every-man-for-himself society.

The result is that unless they were born into the upper classes, people my age (I'm 24) have it harder than their parents - they have to go into debt to go to school, they have to live at home far, far longer than their parents had to, they can't afford their own place and after all this they get can to the same place their parents did. What really fucking annoys me is when you see some of the older jackasses in ATOT talk about how they moved out and got a place when they were 19 or whatever and how kids today live at home until they are 25. These jackasses had it easy, their collective decisions made life harder for young poeple today and then they have the gall to make fun of people today.

Now one line of thinking that conservatives love to parrot is the "But you have it way better than your parents, look at all the extra stuff and powerful computers you have that they didn't" line. It sounds nice, but its just one big distraction - yes technology has caused many things to become cheaper, but it has little to do with what we're talking about since had we not had this explosion of inequality we would have had both cheaper tech AND bigger incomes and easier lives.

I spoke in these generalities first, because its important to look at what happens in society at large and not one person in particular. But since you ask and I'm in your target demographic, I'll tell you about myself and my friends.

Yes, I am doing better than my parents were, but this isn't much of an achievement since they grew up in 70s communist Bulgaria. At 24 I am doing well compared to both current and previous generations, but that hasn't exactly been easy - I have a professional degree from a top university, I've worked almost continuously since I was 15, I've lived at home for a long, long time and I've been saving like fucking scrooge for so long I can list all the things I own on the fingers of one hand.

The situation is largely mirrored amongst my close friends (all 23-25 yo) - everybody had to work hard, most people lived at home during university (many of them are still in school in some kind of further education - grad school, dentistry, medicine etc) and amongst the 12-15 people I am talking about only 1 had her own place and only 2 have their own cars with everybody else still living like they were in fucking high school.

So yes, people do get mad they must have it harder than people before them, especially since the rhetoric is quite the opposite of reality. And its likely you'll see a change because at one point people will realize they're getting fucked and will stop being so easily persuaded by distractions and rhetoric.

Are you looking for, or calling for, further assistance from the government(s)? yes/no

Do you still beat your wife? yes/no

People should be primarily concerned with what works and what doesn't rather than the idiotic ideological battles your kind loves so much. Whether government works or not is a function of many things - how corrupt it is, how representative the democratic system is, how large it is etc. What works for people in one state or country is not necessarily what works in another and that's as much of an answer as you're gonna get.