Supreme Court signals support for Arizona immigration law provision

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EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,591
5
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My personal experience in Arizona for the first time in my life last week.. Just walked out of a club in Scottsdale (Wild Knight) and out of my group of friends (about 9) a cop walks in the middle and pulls one of my friends out. He wasn't acting drunk or anything but I guess because he had earrings and higher spiked hair he looked suspicious. The cop's reasoning for singling him out? He thought my friend was selling drugs.. Really, he surmised that from the 100ft walk we did out of the club?

I dont know. Being in AZ for 2 days was enough to see that I would never live there in my life. Its a good thing we do security and instinct was to start recording right away. Cop eventually let him go without saying anything else.

LEO may had experience with that club that made them suspicious.
 

Michael

Elite member
Nov 19, 1999
5,435
234
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If GOP wants to keep pissing off Hispanic voters, SCOTUS should let them.

For the most part, legal immigrants are not in support of illegals. Hispanic voters also tend to be Catholic (not pleased with the Democrats right now) and conservative.

Racial profiling that targets citizens will piss them off, but enforcing existing and well understood laws will not.

Michael
 

Pneumothorax

Golden Member
Nov 4, 2002
1,182
23
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For the most part, legal immigrants are not in support of illegals. Hispanic voters also tend to be Catholic (not pleased with the Democrats right now) and conservative.

Racial profiling that targets citizens will piss them off, but enforcing existing and well understood laws will not.

Michael

The funny thing is that if the legal Hispanics believe like you say they do, then they're just as bad 'silent majority' of Muslims who don't say anything bout jihadists. It seems like whenever a Hispanic is put on tv they're always rallying for 'free borders' and 'undocumented immigrants'. (I hate that euphemism!). Next time I get pulled over for speeding, I'll just tell the Leo that I'm doing 'undocumented speeding' and expect a free pass.


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DucatiMonster696

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2009
4,269
1
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The funny thing is that if the legal Hispanics believe like you say they do, then they're just as bad 'silent majority' of Muslims who don't say anything bout jihadists. It seems like whenever a Hispanic is put on tv they're always rallying for 'free borders' and 'undocumented immigrants'. (I hate that euphemism!). Next time I get pulled over for speeding, I'll just tell the Leo that I'm doing 'undocumented speeding' and expect a free pass.


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"Hispanic" is not a racial group. There is no real group identity with this moniker. It is nothing more then a political term designed to describe people who have a lineage stemming fourth from usually predominately Spanish speaking countries of the Americas. Most Hispanics who are US citizens (such as myself) identify ourselves as American and we don't feel compelled to act like a homogenous group for the sake of appealing to race warfare stereotypes pushed by the media and other institutions.

In other words it is like expecting all people of German decent in the US agreeing with and coming together with all of those of Irish decent (along with other people of European decent) on the matter of illegal immigration. Of which in my city of San Francisco oddly enough there is a sizable amount of illegal Irish nationals who work under the radar but side with the pro-illegal crowd in the city.
 
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cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
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Yes. They are the same people who say "undocumented" instead of illegal as though it was a simple clerical error.


Wow, I thought the mindset that illegals should not be found and removed went away with the midset that blacks are an inferior race. I guess ignorance cannot be easily removed.
 
Apr 27, 2012
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The illegal immigrants have to be kicked out of the country, they take up way too much welfare and commit too much crime
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
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Originally Posted by Darwin333
Really? I haven't actually looked up the law but I was told by a cop that in the state of Louisiana it is illegal to be over 18 and in public without valid ID of some sort. Maybe he was bullshitting me, I don't leave the house without my wallet so its not something that would effect me but if a cop stops me and asks for my ID can I really tell him no without any sort of repercussions?

it's amazing how many cops will make shit up to get people to do what the cop wants.

LA is a stop and identify state so the cop was not "making shit up".
 

SNC

Platinum Member
Jan 14, 2001
2,166
201
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In a CNN/ORC International poll last fall, 52% of those surveyed said illegal immigration was extremely or very important to their vote for president. But a similar poll in March showed only 4% saying it is the most important issue facing the United States today, while 53% said the economy is the top issue.

I don't know if I have ever seen numbers manipulated so perfectly to fit the writers bent.
Well done.
 

Ninjahedge

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2005
4,149
1
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being stopped while driving is different from being called over by police at any time. even while driving, the cops have to at least have a reasonable-suspicion reason to stop someone while driving (in criminal procedure jargon it's a pretextual stop, out in the real world it's driving while _______). it's just that nearly everyone does something improperly while driving during almost every drive. failure to signal, speeding, failure to yield, etc.

I am quite aware of that. This guy was a grandpa in a mini-van. He has also said he has been stopped walking in and out of a store.

We, as American Citizens, should not be required to carry passports with us when grocery shopping.
 

Ninjahedge

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2005
4,149
1
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So, one ticket is the basis for saying there are "lots"?

It's one too many, and one more than I've heard of, but it's not "lots". I've gotten the wrong change at fast food restaurants, but I don't claim the industry is a scam.

He should have reported the incident - it sounds like a misbehaving ticket writer who they'd like to discipline upon confirming the behavior patter, maybe watching them closely.

You ask for an example, someone gives you one, but one is not enough.

What, he has to go get a survey showing the number of tickets that were given falsely by cops with bad attitudes? C'mahn!

There are studies that show that if you put too much power in the hands of people, they do, on more than "average", start to abuse it. This is not different. Since when did "Protect and SERVE" become "OBEY US".

BTW, here is one thing that we should start looking at. The reason just about anything gets so much illegal attention is because it is something that is desired, but forbidden. Prohibition showed us that.

We have a VERY STRONG need for immigrant labor in this country. We simply cannot GET people to work the fields, even at decent living wages. Nobody WANTS to do it, at least not enough people....

We need to find some way to regulate this work force. Make temporary and rotating Visas easier to get. Something that allows us to utilize this resource and track it better rather than chase it across a river.

You make it easier to get in and out (and I do not mean completely open...), people will NOT go through the trouble of sneaking across, and they will not stay here and hide if they know they can come back just as easily. All 100% exclusionary policies never work and are prohibitively expensive. We need a solution, not a game of denial.
 

Ninjahedge

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2005
4,149
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Yes, there is. 24 states have stop and identify statutes, including Arizona.

Um...

Consensual
At any time, police may approach a person and ask questions. The objective may simply be a friendly conversation; however, the police also may suspect involvement in a crime, but lack “specific and articulable facts”[4] that would justify a detention or arrest, and hope to obtain these facts from the questioning. The person approached is not required to identify himself or answer any other questions, and may leave at any time.[5] Police are not usually required to tell a person that he is free to decline to answer questions and go about his business;[6] however, a person can usually determine whether the interaction is consensual by asking, “Am I free to go?”

???

Also:

^ The opinion in Hiibel included a list of 21 states with “stop and identify” laws. For some reason, an Indiana law was not included in the list; the Arizona and Ohio laws have been enacted since Hiibel was decided.

It looks like the 9-11 paranoia has made us give up another right in the name of "safety".

So you are not allowed to be asked for ID, even WITH these laws, unless the cop "suspects you are about to commit a crime".

Great. Another easily definable transgression that requires your bar-code.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,350
7,427
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The illegal immigrants have to be kicked out of the country, they take up way too much welfare and commit too much crime

Yeah but you could say that about some other folks too. Does that mean they have to go?

If they are here illegally, yes.

Leftists remain nutters when I suggest my compromise. Yet they don't understand or appreciate how the Right wants to REMOVE (shoot by force) the entire illegal population.

When I hear someone suggest 'kicked out of the country', I really hope they don't understand the resistance they'll face. For what they actually advocate is a civil war and the end of civil society.

I mean, what, you're going to give them an order to leave and the Illegals are suddenly going to become 'American flag waving Iraqis' greeting us at the exit?

Not that I hold the Right above such romantic delusions, as I illustrated with the Iraq reference. Yes, the victims you use force against will go quietly into the night... or even help themselves along the way you set forth....

The Left is keeps building pressure on this issue by not sealing the border and giving us some small chance in hell of peacefully integrating our 10s of millions of foreign citizens into the rest of society. This division, if allowed to grow, will not end peacefully. You've got to stop adding to the problem before it can be properly addressed and violence avoided.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,914
2,359
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Um...



???

Also:



It looks like the 9-11 paranoia has made us give up another right in the name of "safety".

So you are not allowed to be asked for ID, even WITH these laws, unless the cop "suspects you are about to commit a crime".

Great. Another easily definable transgression that requires your bar-code.

In Hiibel vs 6th District Court,

In sum, Hiibel holds a state may criminalize a refusal to produce identification as long as the detention is predicated on a valid Terry stop (i.e., reasonable suspicion). In other words, police officers do not violate the Fourth Amendment when they arrest an individual after the individual refuses to provide identification during a lawful detention pursuant to their state's stop-and-identify statute.

Terry vs Ohio was in 1968. There must exist a reasonable amount of suspicion of a crime, but short of probable cause for arrest. Driving while brown would not qualify as a valid Terry stop and would get thrown out of court.
 
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nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
15,669
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In Hiibel vs 6th District Court,



Terry vs Ohio was in 1968. There must exist a reasonable amount of suspicion of a crime, but short of probable cause for arrest. Driving while brown would not qualify as a valid Terry stop and would get thrown out of court.

Driving without a license is a crime though. And so if you are stopped and cannot produce a license that would seem to be probable cause for a crime.
 

Ninjahedge

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2005
4,149
1
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Angst, that is VERY debatable.

If there is a push against illegal immigrants.. note the "illegal" in that term, and the cop has "reasonable suspicion", iow, the guy is Mexican looking, then he can argue that he is 100% legal in pulling him over.

It would not be the first time a vaguely worded law has been abused. He can be "suspicious of the driver because he was driving too slow" or "too fast" or "had too many people in the van" or "had an old looking van" or any number of a dozen different things.

The key here is simple. YES some of those signs may be indicators of an illegal activity, but they are not proof. Also, when an enforcement agent has their own crime already assigned to the individual, they look to prove the crime, not the assumptions veracity. Being able to arrest someone for a broken tail light because they do not have a passport is 100% possible, and a bit scary.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,414
8,356
126
The funny thing is that if the legal Hispanics believe like you say they do, then they're just as bad 'silent majority' of Muslims who don't say anything bout jihadists. It seems like whenever a Hispanic is put on tv they're always rallying for 'free borders' and 'undocumented immigrants'. (I hate that euphemism!). Next time I get pulled over for speeding, I'll just tell the Leo that I'm doing 'undocumented speeding' and expect a free pass.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

what you see on tv is put on there for controversy because that drives ratings.
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
0
0
Leftists remain nutters when I suggest my compromise. Yet they don't understand or appreciate how the Right wants to REMOVE (shoot by force) the entire illegal population.

When I hear someone suggest 'kicked out of the country', I really hope they don't understand the resistance they'll face. For what they actually advocate is a civil war and the end of civil society.

I mean, what, you're going to give them an order to leave and the Illegals are suddenly going to become 'American flag waving Iraqis' greeting us at the exit?

Not that I hold the Right above such romantic delusions, as I illustrated with the Iraq reference. Yes, the victims you use force against will go quietly into the night... or even help themselves along the way you set forth....

The Left is keeps building pressure on this issue by not sealing the border and giving us some small chance in hell of peacefully integrating our 10s of millions of foreign citizens into the rest of society. This division, if allowed to grow, will not end peacefully. You've got to stop adding to the problem before it can be properly addressed and violence avoided.

I think we need a four prong approach.

1. Seal up the border as best as possible.
2. Deport those found here illegally - to the far edge of their home nation, not just barely across the border they obviously have no problem crossing. For Mexico, that would be Merida, Yucatan.
3. Terribly fine companies who employ illegals. $100,000 for each found to be employed should suffice.
4. Allow those here illegally to safely return to the country of origin (or any other country of their choosing) without fear of being arrested while trying to leave.

With these three in place, we will just wait it out and eventually the problem fixes itself. The jobs will dry up and the illegals will leave. Those who stay will eventually be caught and deported. New illegals will have trouble entering, and no jobs to find once they are here.