Supreme Court Divided on Hobby Lobby and birth control issue

[IGBT]

liberals trying to force their "crotch politics" on society. What else is new??

 

[Retro Rob]

This is great - I can now back out of any contract I hold with another party, simply by stating; "it's my religious right to not honor this legally binding agreement".

I mean, if one side can claim that same sex will lead to toaster and human marriages, another side can claim that in favor of religious right can (and will) overide any rules, laws and order.

Murder? Well, that infidel did not honor my religious rights, and it's not murder, since I killed someone in the name of upholding my religious rights!! Thusly, I can not be held accountable for murder, since my religious rights do not uphold/acknowledge the charges of murder.

HL is reacting to a policy being forced onto them by the ACA -- they're simply fighting back.

We have freedom of religion -- you don't get freedom from religion.

Women who have a problem with it can simply find another place to work.

 

[dmcowen674]

Do any Religions believe that Corporations have a Soul? aka, will Hobby Lobby go to Heaven?

Corporations should have never been given personhood rights.

Hopefully the Supreme idiots fix that mistake but I doubt it since they are owned by said Corporations.

Hope Hobby Lobby loses and that nut running the Company shuts it down as he promised to do if they lose.

 

[JEDIYoda]

The crux would be if money was directly going for a specific fund or not I would think. If the government asked Hobby Lobby to directly pay for contraceptive services I would think HL's argument would be correct. Since the government is asking HL to pay only for Health Care, of which MAY include contraceptives, HL has no leg to stand on.

actually you are playing with words......
Hobby Lobby should not have to provide a health care plan that includes contraceptives!! The government asking Hobby Lobby to provide those services is NOT the issue! Hobby Lobby should NOT have to provide a healthcare plan that includes or allows any sort of contraceptive services!! The government has no leg to stand on!!

 

[JEDIYoda]

This is great - I can now back out of any contract I hold with another party, simply by stating; "it's my religious right to not honor this legally binding agreement".

I mean, if one side can claim that same sex will lead to toaster and human marriages, another side can claim that in favor of religious right can (and will) overide any rules, laws and order.

Murder? Well, that infidel did not honor my religious rights, and it's not murder, since I killed someone in the name of upholding my religious rights!! Thusly, I can not be held accountable for murder, since my religious rights do not uphold/acknowledge the charges of murder.

what`s great is your response smacks of idiocracy! Hobby Lobby was never in any agreement with the Government! The government is trying to impose their will on Hobby Lobby!! Show me where Hobby Lobby had a contract with the government....doh...

 

[JEDIYoda]

I bet viagra isn't on the list of meds morally objectionable to their religion.

The problem you have is a very simple one...you know nothing about Viagra other than it being used for....
Wrere you aware that 95% of a medical insurances will not pay for Viagra?? Sure you need a prescription...but that in no way means your insurer is going to pay for it...

 

[ElFenix]

what`s great is your response smacks of idiocracy! Hobby Lobby was never in any agreement with the Government! The government is trying to impose their will on Hobby Lobby!! Show me where Hobby Lobby had a contract with the government....doh...

hobby lobby was created by government. it's a corporation. with only those rights as government sees fit to distill upon it. without government, there may be a partnership, but that's not a limited liability legal entity.

 

[Vic]

hobby lobby was created by government. it's a corporation. with only those rights as government sees fit to distill upon it. without government, there may be a partnership, but that's not a limited liability legal entity.

Too too many people out there who have no clue what a corporation is.

 

[BoomerD]

Given the ruling in Citizens United, I don't know how this can be ruled in anything other than Hobby Lobby's favor. If an association of citizens is legally guaranteed the same rights as an individual citizen, HL should be allowed to refuse to subsidize procedures and medications they find morally objectionable due to their religion.

So...by the same metric, if a company is owned by a Jehovah's Witness or Christian Scientist, and that owner/group of owners doesn't believe in medical treatment, they should be free to reject any health insurance for their employees completely...right? After all...God will heal the believers.

Personally, if Hobby Lobby is against birth control...they (the owners) should avoid its use...but they should not have the right to prevent their employees from using it if they so choose.

I'm wondering...how much does "contraceptive coverage" cost in the overall insurance package?

 

[1prophet]

hobby lobby was created by government. it's a corporation. with only those rights as government sees fit to distill upon it. without government, there may be a partnership, but that's not a limited liability legal entity.

Hobby Lobby was not created by the government no more than the town you live in created your house by giving you a building/residency permit,

the government just extended them a corporate charter which comes with certain legal protections, limitations and requirements.

http://biztaxlaw.about.com/od/glossaryc/g/corporatecharter.htm

 

[Incorruptible]

Corporations should have never been given personhood rights.

Hopefully the Supreme idiots fix that mistake but I doubt it since they are owned by said Corporations.

Hope Hobby Lobby loses and that nut running the Company shuts it down as he promised to do if they lose.

So you want people to lose their jobs? Not surprised at all by the left.

It's nice to see people support religious liberty. This is a private business and if they don't want to pay for certain birth control but will pay for others then they can do that.

 

[ivwshane]

I'd say HL is acting on their beliefs that life begins at conception and that all life is sacred. It is probably their belief that providing these services at a subsidized rate equates to supporting/enabling/approving of them, which goes against their morals based on religious belief. These beliefs are some of the most deeply held beliefs by a lot of Christians.

Really? What part of the bible says women shouldn't have abortions, what part says they shouldn't use birth control? What part of the bible says you should control what your employees/friends/neighbors do with their body?

Hell! What religion has any of that in their religious texts and let alone their most deeply held beliefs?

 

[1prophet]

So...by the same metric, if a company is owned by a Jehovah's Witness or Christian Scientist, and that owner/group of owners doesn't believe in medical treatment, they should be free to reject any health insurance for their employees completely...right? After all...God will heal the believers.

Personally, if Hobby Lobby is against birth control...they (the owners) should avoid its use...but they should not have the right to prevent their employees from using it if they so choose.

I'm wondering...how much does "contraceptive coverage" cost in the overall insurance package?

They can't prevent them from using it or obtaining it on their own, they don't want to pay for it,

let the government administer health insurance and this problem would be solved.:hmm:

 

[kage69]

What I find interesting is no companies or groups like HL were against their insurance companies providing birth control during the previous administration but only AFTER we get a black guy in the oval office who conservatives absolutely hate do we see all this nonsense start.

What I think is funny is HL did offer their employees a separate plan that covered birth control a while back.

You can see here in this link more info on what HL was willing to offer in the way of birth control and what they consider to be abortficients http://mediamatters.org/research/2014/03/24/what-media-should-know-about-hobby-lobby-and-th/198591

HL strongly objects to the morning after pill even though it isn't an abortion pill: Emergency Contraceptives Work To Prevent Ovulation, Not Implantation

The science doesn't matter, all that matters is what these bosses or CEO's or what these idiotic conservative / religious people believe.

Exactly. Being a devote christian business owner means you are entitled to be ignorant of science, biology in particular it seems, and others need to respect their choice to be ignorant. Even if it involves someone's physical wellbeing.

Really brings back memories of the stem cell research fail the religious right wrapped themselves with years ago, and just like back then this is making them look like callous, uneducated zealots.

I wonder what the owners themselves would consider more burdensome; the knowledge their company supports employees in a manner befitting the time and age, or if they themselves found out an unwanted pregnancy was inbound and btw they're not CEOs, they have the same pay rate as the girl in charge of the glue, glitter, and construction paper isles.

To me it seems like a great time for an outspoken pro-life business to make a point of saying they are serious about preventing the aborting of unwanted pregnancies, and fully support the minimal cost involved which would also help their employees, many of whom are probably living paycheck to paycheck. I seem to recall something in christianity about care of the poor, hrmm, not sure...

 

[ivwshane]

If businesses can refuse a government tax on the basis of religion then why can't real people object to taxes and not pay them for the same reason?

I'm pretty sure that many religious peoples belief is that of non violence and yet their tax dollars go towards some very violent things (the military being one, prisons and the death penalties for another).

Of course normal sane people understand that in order to have a functional society things like taxes are necessary and sometimes taxes go towards things you don't agree with and yet there isn't an option to not pay (via money or jail).

If corporations are people my friend, then they need to start being held accountable like people. I'm talking jail time or death penalty or a complete dissolving of the company when they commit crimes or accidents like the scentence a people would get for equivilances crimes.

 

[BoomerD]

They can't prevent them from using it or obtaining it on their own, they don't want to pay for it,

let the government administer health insurance and this problem would be solved.:hmm:

That's what we need in this country. Socialized medicine like Canada, England, or any of the other "civilized" nations have.

In a major nation like this, there's NO EXCUSE for a person going bankrupt over a medical emergency...or dying because they can't afford the necessary medical treatment.

 

[Retro Rob]

If businesses can refuse a government tax on the basis of religion then why can't real people object to taxes and not pay them for the same reason?

I'm pretty sure that many religious peoples belief is that of non violence and yet their tax dollars go towards some very violent things (the military being one, prisons and the death penalties for another).

Of course normal sane people understand that in order to have a functional society things like taxes are necessary and sometimes taxes go towards things you don't agree with and yet there isn't an option to not pay (via money or jail).

If corporations are people my friend, then they need to start being held accountable like people. I'm talking jail time or death penalty or a complete dissolving of the company when they commit crimes or accidents like the scentence a people would get for equivilances crimes.

Paying taxes is paying taxes...this means we cannot control what the government does with the money.

Keep these asinine slippery slope arguments coming.

 

[Vic]

Hobby Lobby was not created by the government no more than the town you live in created your house by giving you a building/residency permit,

the government just extended them a corporate charter which comes with certain legal protections, limitations and requirements.

http://biztaxlaw.about.com/od/glossaryc/g/corporatecharter.htm

That corporate charter is what makes Hobby Lobby a corporation. Those legal protections are what define a corporation. Otherwise, you have a partnership.
Your analogy doesn't work. Likely because you're confusing capital with legal privilege. You can build a house without the government. You can build a business without the government. You cannot create a corporation without the government.

 

[norseamd]

That's what we need in this country. Socialized medicine like Canada, England, or any of the other "civilized" nations have. In a major nation like this, there's NO EXCUSE for a person going bankrupt over a medical emergency...or dying because they can't afford the necessary medical treatment.

+1 and coming from boomerd

 

[norseamd]

also i think a company should not have to support medical car at all

medical care costs a lot of money

that is why the government can run it and support it with taxes

works around the world and we can do it also

 

[Incorruptible]

also i think a company should not have to support medical car at all

medical care costs a lot of money

that is why the government can run it and support it with taxes

works around the world and we can do it also

So you want other people to pay for your healthcare, Not surprised at all.

 

[Paratus]

Too too many people out there who have no clue what a corporation is.

Seems like the owners of HL are one of them. HL is a separate legal entity to reduce the owners liability. If the owners want to argue the burden is on them, or SCOTUS interprets it that way, then their limited liability may be at risk.

Besides corporations are allowed to be created and exist to serve our society, with the assumption that they provide a benefit to our society by reducing the liability risk of their owners. If that's not the case then personally I say dissolve their corporation.

I'm sure our resident free market libertarians will agree that they don't need the government protecting free market entrepreneurs from their own risks.

 

[BoomerD]

So you want other people to pay for your healthcare, Not surprised at all.

Do you build your own roads? Have your own personal fire department?

Why should health care be any different?

BASIC health care should be provided at no cost to all US citizens...if you want "premium care" such as private room, elective surgery, etc., you can buy coverage to pay for that.

 

[Paratus]

So you want other people to pay for your healthcare, Not surprised at all.

If you have used medical insurance you bought or more likely your parents bought, you are a hypocrite.

Now good day to you sir!

 

[Fanatical Meat]

HL is reacting to a policy being forced onto them by the ACA -- they're simply fighting back.

We have freedom of religion -- you don't get freedom from religion.

Women who have a problem with it can simply find another place to work.

Dude its fine not to like ACA the problem with a HL victory is its a giant turd sandwich for anyone who works. HL needs to comply with the tax code. If they have such an enormous belief that they feel that morning after pill is abortion then they should either become a non profit or pay the fine for not offering appropriate care. An employer has no right to decide what care is offered. Doctors and insurance experts pretty much all agree that multiple forms of birth control should be offered and its in the publics best interest.
Where does it end, could they decide that health insurance doesn't cover anyone who owns a dog because Muhammad said that angels will never enter a home with dogs in it? Would it be ok for a business not grant you time off because you want to go to a casino? These aren't very far off from what we are talking about.