Supreme Court Divided on Hobby Lobby and birth control issue

[Newell Steamer]

Dictating the line itemization of drugs or birth control is ridicously stupid. Might as well dictate that you feed your employees. Heaven forbid someone PAYS them a WAGE with which to BUY IT THEMSELVES!

We're almost there,...

Just wait for the Palin/Romney administration - they'll set this country right.

Edit: Palin/Romney 2016,... WOOOOO!!!

 

[Brainonska511]

I could see how they could follow the concepts laid out in Citizens United, and grant corporations more rights. At the same time, the USSC should recognize that corporations are legal entities, separate and distinct from their owners, and that religious belief is strictly a human ability, and thus rule against HL.

 

[Sonikku]

Corporations are people too.

Just not ones you can punish or send to jail.

 

[HomerJS]

Given the ruling in Citizens United, I don't know how this can be ruled in anything other than Hobby Lobby's favor. If an association of citizens is legally guaranteed the same rights as an individual citizen, HL should be allowed to refuse to subsidize procedures and medications they find morally objectionable due to their religion.

This might give you a clue. Antonin Scalia ruled the following when a Native American Church wanted to use peyote a part of their religious ceremonies

The Court held that the First Amendment's protection of the "free exercise" of religion does not allow a person to use a religious motivation as a reason not to obey such generally applicable laws. "To permit this would be to make the professed doctrines of religious belief superior to the law of the land, and in effect to permit every citizen to become a law unto himself." Thus, the Court had held that religious beliefs did not excuse people from complying with laws forbidding polygamy, child labor laws, Sunday closing laws, laws requiring citizens to register for Selective Service, and laws requiring the payment of Social Security taxes.

 

[fskimospy]

This might give you a clue. Antonin Scalia ruled the following when a Native American Church wanted to use peyote a part of their religious ceremonies

You don't think that ruling the exact opposite in a previous case will stop Scalia from voting in favor of Hobby Lobby here, do you? I would bet $100 that he rules that this is an impermissible violation of their religious freedom.

I used to respect him for having a coherent judicial philosophy, even if I thought that philosophy was stupid. He has thrown that out the window over the last 10 years though.

Easy shorthand for how Scalia will rule: If it is restrictions on women, gay people, minorities, or things having to do with drugs, etc, Scalia has an expansive view of government power. If it has to do with religion, favoring women, gay people, minorities, etc, very limited powers.

 

[norseamd]

We're almost there,...

Just wait for the Palin/Romney administration - they'll set this country right.

Edit: Palin/Romney 2016,... WOOOOO!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uX2cS8wvQHI

 

[HomerJS]

Corporations are people too.

Just not ones you can punish or send to jail.

If they are maybe someone will attempt a citizens arrest in the future.

 

[sactoking]

To me, the religious burden hurdle is difficult for plaintiffs to overcome. Without full facts, I would venture to guess that the specific types of birth control at issue have no impact to the premium cost tot he employer. In other words, claims costs for the birth control are statistically insignificant compared to all other claims costs. If that is the case, then the employer isn't paying for anything, as a policy with the services has an identical premium to a policy without the services. If the employer isn't paying then the employer isn't burdened.

 

[Atreus21]

To me, the religious burden hurdle is difficult for plaintiffs to overcome. Without full facts, I would venture to guess that the specific types of birth control at issue have no impact to the premium cost tot he employer. In other words, claims costs for the birth control are statistically insignificant compared to all other claims costs. If that is the case, then the employer isn't paying for anything, as a policy with the services has an identical premium to a policy without the services. If the employer isn't paying then the employer isn't burdened.

Disagree. It still amounts to being forced to provide something you have a moral objection to providing.

 

[Oldgamer]

I'd say HL is acting on their beliefs that life begins at conception and that all life is sacred. It is probably their belief that providing these services at a subsidized rate equates to supporting/enabling/approving of them, which goes against their morals based on religious belief. These beliefs are some of the most deeply held beliefs by a lot of Christians.

What I find interesting is no companies or groups like HL were against their insurance companies providing birth control during the previous administration but only AFTER we get a black guy in the oval office who conservatives absolutely hate do we see all this nonsense start.

What I think is funny is HL did offer their employees a separate plan that covered birth control a while back.

You can see here in this link more info on what HL was willing to offer in the way of birth control and what they consider to be abortficients http://mediamatters.org/research/2014/03/24/what-media-should-know-about-hobby-lobby-and-th/198591

HL strongly objects to the morning after pill even though it isn't an abortion pill: Emergency Contraceptives Work To Prevent Ovulation, Not Implantation

The science doesn't matter, all that matters is what these bosses or CEO's or what these idiotic conservative / religious people believe.

 

[Gunslinger08]

What I find interesting is no companies or groups like HL were against their insurance companies providing birth control during the previous administration but only AFTER we get a black guy in the oval office who conservatives absolutely hate do we see all this nonsense start.

What I think is funny is HL did offer their employees a separate plan that covered birth control a while back.

You can see here in this link more info on what HL was willing to offer in the way of birth control and what they consider to be abortficients http://mediamatters.org/research/2014/03/24/what-media-should-know-about-hobby-lobby-and-th/198591

HL strongly objects to the morning after pill even though it isn't an abortion pill: Emergency Contraceptives Work To Prevent Ovulation, Not Implantation

The science doesn't matter, all that matters is what these bosses or CEO's or what these idiotic conservative / religious people believe.

Have a source? That would be very hypocritical. It's my understanding that HL is fighting this in court due to emergency contraception and IUDs, which generally function by preventing implantation of a fertilized egg. Modern Christian belief is that life starts at fertilization. HL does offer regular hormonal birth control, which typically functions by preventing ovulation or fertilization.

Edit: You edited your post quite a bit from when I read it til when I replied, so some of my comments are saying what you're saying.

 

[Oldgamer]

Have a source? That would be very hypocritical. It's my understanding that HL is fighting this in court due to emergency contraception and IUDs, which generally function by preventing implantation of a fertilized egg. Modern Christian belief is that life starts at fertilization. HL does offer regular hormonal birth control, which typically functions by preventing ovulation or fertilization.

Edit: You edited your post quite a bit from when I read it til when I replied, so some of my comments are saying what you're saying.

Did you miss the link that I provided right there? LOL

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Have a source? That would be very hypocritical. It's my understanding that HL is fighting this in court due to emergency contraception and IUDs, which generally function by preventing implantation of a fertilized egg. Modern Christian belief is that life starts at fertilization. HL does offer regular hormonal birth control, which typically functions by preventing ovulation or fertilization.

Edit: You edited your post quite a bit from when I read it til when I replied, so some of my comments are saying what you're saying.

The court has been unpredictable lately but I say they will be against hobby lobby for the simple reason that there are 100s of years worth of rulings none ever came close to religious choice for businesses, supporting this could potentially throw business law into chaos.

Also its fine not to support the ACA but rooting for hobby lobby is not they way to do it. There are no state sponsored religions in the US, so this could open the door to all sorts of undesirable behaviors from businesses to consumers and other businesses.

 

[glenn1]

No matter what the SCOTUS ruling it won't change the fact that it was monumentally stupid for the ACA to mandate health insurers to include contraceptives. Pointlessly picking a political fight over such tiny stakes was a colossal fail on the admin's part. Even if for some unfathomable reason they thought contraceptives were something that supremely important, they could have easily subsidized them some other way that didn't potentially jeopardize the ACA as a whole.

 

[zinfamous]

No matter what the SCOTUS ruling it won't change the fact that it was monumentally stupid for the ACA to mandate health insurers to include contraceptives. Pointlessly picking a political fight over such tiny stakes was a colossal fail on the admin's part. Even if for some unfathomable reason they thought contraceptives were something that supremely important, they could have easily subsidized them some other way that didn't potentially jeopardize the ACA as a whole.

unfathomable? It's one of the most efficient ways of cutting down long term healthcare costs. Not to mention ancillary federal costs such as welfare and other such programs.

 

[HumblePie]

The crux would be if money was directly going for a specific fund or not I would think. If the government asked Hobby Lobby to directly pay for contraceptive services I would think HL's argument would be correct. Since the government is asking HL to pay only for Health Care, of which MAY include contraceptives, HL has no leg to stand on.

Think of it this way. I'm pretty sure that HL is fairly opposed to pornography. But they pay taxes in places that allow pornography as a business to exist. Which includes roads, and other services for the pornography industry. The fact they pay taxes which are used to benefit something they are against is the precedent for ruling against them in this situation.

 

[ElFenix]

hobby lobby should hire only men then it won't have any women taking birth control



(still trying to figure out which church hobby lobby attends each sunday)

 

[HTFOff]

 

[norseamd]

hobby lobby should hire only men then it won't have any women taking birth control

surprising that any women work at hobby lobby at all

more model trains plz

 

[Londo_Jowo]

surprising that any women work at hobby lobby at all

more model trains plz

Something tells me you haven't been in a hobby lobby as there's more craft materials, synthetic flowers, nick-nacks, and other items women clamor over to buy.

http://www.hobbylobby.com/home.cfm

 

[Londo_Jowo]

hobby lobby should hire only men then it won't have any women taking birth control



(still trying to figure out which church hobby lobby attends each sunday)

Most of those that work in the Hobby Lobby's close to where I live are Hispanic and are very religious (Catholic).

 

[Vic]

hobby lobby should hire only men then it won't have any women taking birth control



(still trying to figure out which church hobby lobby attends each sunday)

Westboro

 

[ElFenix]

Most of those that work in the Hobby Lobby's close to where I live are Hispanic and are very religious (Catholic).

so which pew is Hobby Lobby sitting in?

(i live a few miles north of you)

 

[norseamd]

Something tells me you haven't been in a hobby lobby as there's more craft materials, synthetic flowers, nick-nacks, and other items women clamor over to buy.

mine does

paint
model trains
military models
model planes
telescopes
lots of terrain
lots of train books
military history books
warhammer
etc.

those model train stuff are incredably expensive like shit

 

[norseamd]

never mind maybe i am thinking about hobbytown usa