Support or don't support Israel?

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Todd33

Diamond Member
Oct 16, 2003
7,842
2
81
Originally posted by: Doboji
Originally posted by: Todd33
What does "support" mean?

I do not support their air attacks, but the ground incursion is fine. I do not support the amount of US aid they get. I do not support the British (UN) Partition Plan, bad place to make a Jewish state - holy land or not. I do support Israel's right to defend itself with the appropriate force. Israel is a rich country, I think our money would be better spent on the Arabs. Until they are back in the mainstream and have a vested interest in being peaceful they will always resort to terrorist acts. If both sides were thriving economically (and spending money on infrastructure and not weapons) with low unemployment there would be little reasons to fight.

Just an FYI, I have Jewish friends and work with the ISA through contracts. I do not know any Arabs or Muslim personally.

You don't know any Arabs or Muslims? at ALL?

I find that hard to even imagine.

I work with a Persian lady, but that's not Arab. Most of the people I work with or live near are not US born, but no Arabs that I know of. I have no bias for or against them or any other ethnic group. As for Muslims, I don't ask people their religion unless I know them well and I have no idea if any one I know is Muslim. I live in one of the most ethnically diverse part of the country, interesting mix of languages and food - Republicans would hate it here :)

 

FrancesBeansRevenge

Platinum Member
Jun 6, 2001
2,181
0
0
I am American (Irish ethnic background) and also hold Permanent Residency status in Australia
I am agnostic (former born again)

I support Israel's right to exist but would be much more comfortable if it existed within the pre-1967 borders.
Pull everything back behind that line, build a large wall, station international ?buffer? force in a middle zone, and double military aid to Israel to strengthen their national defense even further, submit UN resolution granting Palestinian statehood and stating that Israel has now made every concession possible and must be allowed to exist in peace and any further attack on Israel will be responded to by UN forces led by the US.

If, after all that, Arab states are still engaging in aggressive behaviour against Israel, and consequently the international buffer force, then I would fully support the US being involved in attacks against those states and a regional war if necessary.

This is a view which comes from what I feel would be best for American national interests, not Israeli national interests, but I am certainly not advocating removing support... in fact, like I said above, I'd support greatly increasing support if those, admittedly terribly idealistic, steps were taken.
 

IrateLeaf

Member
Jul 27, 2006
183
0
0
Originally posted by: feelingshorter
Originally posted by: Doboji
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Where's the option for Atheists? What are you, some kind of anti-Non Theist?;)

(edited for decency) atheists!!!! ATHEISTS are the reason for all the wars in the world!!!!!

are you an atheist sugartits?
(edited for decency) Who attacked the USS Liberty? How come the 4000 Jewish workers at WTC didn?t go to work that day and not one Jewish worker died during 9/11? This is a conspiracy!

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-2289232,00.html

This rumor is ridiculous and offensive.
It is estimated that between 400 and 500 Jews died in the attacks on
the World Trade Center on 9/11. The exact number is not known, since
official record-keeping does not list the religions of the victims.

"While no one knows for certain how many Jews were killed on Sept. 11,
the most reliable estimates put the number at about 400. This despite
the blasphemy spread in the Arab world that no Jews perished, having
been warned by the Mossad agents who supposedly carried out the
attacks."

The figure would have been even higher had it not been for the fact that
many Orthodox Jews went to work an hour later because of the Selichot
prayers recited in the days before the Jewish New Year."

"How many Jews actually died in the world Trade Center attacks is not
known with any precision. The official New York City 'Missing Persons
List' does not categorize victims by their religion or nationality.
But ask families with names like Adler, Aron, Berger, Bernstein,
Cohen, Eichler, Eisenberg, Feinberg, Friedlander, Goldstein,
Greenstein, Horwitz, Jablonski, Kestenbaum, Kirchbaum, Kleinberg,
Levi, Levine, Mayer, Rosenberg, Rosenblum, Rosenthal, Sachs,
Safronoff, Schwartz, Shulman, Shwartzstein, Silverstein, Solomon,
Steinman, Temple, Weil, Weinberg, Weingard, Weinstein, Weiss, Zukelman
what they wouldn't give to see their loved ones again.
Why didn't they
get a conspiratorial cell-phone message warning them to stay home? By
all appearances, the 9-11 hijackers were equal-opportunity murderers."


 

MiniDoom

Diamond Member
Jan 5, 2004
5,305
0
76
Originally posted by: feelingshorter
Originally posted by: Doboji
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Where's the option for Atheists? What are you, some kind of anti-Non Theist?;)

fckin atheists!!!! ATHEISTS are the reason for all the wars in the world!!!!!

are you an atheist sugartits?

Fcking Jews! Who attacked the USS Liberty? How come the 4000 Jewish workers at WTC didn?t go to work that day and not one Jewish worker died during 9/11? This is a conspiracy!

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-2289232,00.html

You?re a fvcking tool. Do you really believe everything Hezbollah tells you?
Some Jewish employees did not attend work at the WTC on 9/11
This claim made by Al-Manar, the television station of Hezbollah, has been repeated by a wide variety of other sources, such as Amiri Baraka. The original Al-Manar claim was:
"With the announcement of the attacks at the World Trade Center in New York, the international media, particularly the Israeli one, hurried to take advantage of the incident and started mourning 4,000 Israelis who worked at the two towers. Then suddenly, no one ever mentioned anything about those Israelis and later it became clear that they remarkably did not show up in their jobs the day the incident took place.
No one talked about any Israeli being killed or wounded in the attacks. Arab diplomatic sources revealed to the Jordanian al-Watan newspaper that those Israelis remained absent that day based on hints from the Israeli General Security apparatus, the Shabak, the fact which evoked unannounced suspicions on American officials who wanted to know how the Israeli government learned about the incident before it occurred, and the reasons why it refrained from informing the U.S authorities of the information it had." (from the English language version of the Web site of Lebanon's Al-Manar Television posted September 17, 2001, cited ADL)
It is unclear whether al-Watan made these claims or who (if anyone) the alleged "Arab diplomatic sources" were. No independent confirmation has been produced for this claim; and much of it has been proven to be factually inaccurate (see below).
In some versions of the story circulated on the Internet, the title was changed to "4,000 Jewish Employees in WTC Absent the Day of the Attack" from its original "4000 Israeli Employees in WTC Absent the Day of the Attack", spawning a further rumor that not only Israeli but all Jewish employees stayed away. On September 12 an American Web site called "Information Times" published an article with the headline "4,000 Jews Did Not Go To Work At WTC On Sept. 11," which it credited to "AL-MANAR Television Special Investigative Report." According to Slate.com, "The '4,000 Jews' page is easily forwarded as e-mail, and this may explain the message's rapid dissemination."[112]
The assignment of responsibility to Al-Manar is in dispute. The United States Department of State stated: "Syria's government-owned Al-Thawra newspaper may have been the first newspaper to make the "4,000 Jews" claim... its September 15th edition falsely claimed 'four thousand Jews were absent from their work on the day of the explosions.' "[25]
There were a total of 5 Israeli deaths in the attack (Alona Avraham, Leon Lebor, Shay Levinhar, Daniel Lewin, Haggai Sheffi), of which 3 were in the World Trade Center and 2 were on the planes. (4 are listed as American on most lists, presumably having dual citizenship.)
Early estimates of Israeli deaths, as of the total death toll and the death toll for other countries' citizens (e.g. India) proved substantially overestimated. George W. Bush cited the figure of 130 in his speech on September 20th.
The number of Jewish victims was considerably higher, typically estimated at around 400;[113][114] according to the United States Department of State
A total of 2,071 occupants of the World Trade Center died on September 11, among the 2,749 victims of the WTC attacks. According to an article in the October 11, 2001, Wall Street Journal, roughly 1,700 people had listed the religion of a person missing in the WTC attacks; approximately 10% were Jewish. A later article, in the September 5, 2002, Jewish Week, states, "based on the list of names, biographical information compiled by The New York Times, and information from records at the Medical Examiner's Office, there were at least 400 victims either confirmed or strongly believed to be Jewish." This would be approximately 15% of the total victims of the WTC attacks. A partial list of 390 Cantor Fitzgerald employees who died (out of 658 in the company) lists 49 Jewish memorial services, which is between 12% and 13%. This 10-15% estimate of Jewish fatalities tracks closely with the percentage of Jews living in the New York area. According to the 2002 American Jewish Year Book, 9% of the population of New York State, where 64% of the WTC victims lived, is Jewish. A 2002 study estimated that New York City's population was 12% Jewish. Forty-three percent of the WTC victims lived in New York City. Thus, the number of Jewish victims correlates very closely with the number of Jewish residents in New York. If 4,000 Jews had not reported for work on September 11, the number of Jewish victims would have been much lower than 10-15%.[115]
The figure "4,000" was probably taken by Al-Manar from a Jerusalem Post article of September 12 (p. 3) which said "The Foreign Ministry in Jerusalem has so far received the names of 4,000 Israelis believed to have been in the areas of the World Trade Center and the Pentagon at the time of the attack." This number was obviously not (as Al-Manar claimed) restricted to employees; in fact, Tsviya Shimon, minister of administrative affairs for the Israeli consulate and mission in New York, said on September 14 "that there might have been up to 100 Israeli citizens working in the World Trade Center". [116]
Furthermore, many Orthodox Jews left for work later than usual that day due to Selichot (additional prayers recited around the time of Rosh Hashanah).

 

Aimster

Lifer
Jan 5, 2003
16,129
2
0
Israel probably attacked the ship knowing it was a U.S ship.

They were afraid and didn't trust anyone.

My final conclusion? It happened long ago. Stop bringing it up.

In 1967 the U.S and Iran were giving each other BJs under the table. Times change.
 

Doboji

Diamond Member
May 18, 2001
7,912
0
76
Originally posted by: Aimster
Israel probably attacked the ship knowing it was a U.S ship.

They were afraid and didn't trust anyone.

My final conclusion? It happened long ago. Stop bringing it up.

In 1967 the U.S and Iran were giving each other BJs under the table. Times change.

Does every single thread in P&N about Israel have to end in a debate about the liberty incident?

I'm so sick and tired of this stupidity...

(aimster, I'm not calling you stupid... I'm calling the fact that the issue won't stop coming up stupid)

-Max
 

Freshgeardude

Diamond Member
Jul 31, 2006
4,506
0
76
abount the jew conspiracy i have somthing to tell you. mostly all muslims in NY knew about what was gonna happen on 9/11 because my bros friend's friend worked in the wtc and she called a cab to pick her up and it was muslim and she said take me to wtc and he kicked her out and said im not going there today and she called 2 more cabs and the both were muslims and they both said the same thing and then after she heard about the planes crashing. so muslims knew. also the plane that hit the pentagon was a fighter jet and there was a gas station's camera that was filming the gas station but had a wide lens so it taped the whole thing and after it it the pentagon the secrect service consfiscated the tape and told them to never say a word again or there will be charges and like a year ago they gave 2 frames of the video out and they were 2 frames after it hit the building so the us governmet knew about 9/11 and the secratry of defense could of shot the plain down 15 miles away but he didnt give the order even when it was 1 mile away and they bugged him about shooting it down but he turnd down the order each time!!
 

Aimster

Lifer
Jan 5, 2003
16,129
2
0
Originally posted by: freshgeardude
abount the jew conspiracy i have somthing to tell you. mostly all muslims in NY knew about what was gonna happen on 9/11 because my bros friend's friend worked in the wtc and she called a cab to pick her up and it was muslim and she said take me to wtc and he kicked her out and said im not going there today and she called 2 more cabs and the both were muslims and they both said the same thing and then after she heard about the planes crashing. so muslims knew. also the plane that hit the pentagon was a fighter jet and there was a gas station's camera that was filming the gas station but had a wide lens so it taped the whole thing and after it it the pentagon the secrect service consfiscated the tape and told them to never say a word again or there will be charges and like a year ago they gave 2 frames of the video out and they were 2 frames after it hit the building so the us governmet knew about 9/11 and the secratry of defense could of shot the plain down 15 miles away but he didnt give the order even when it was 1 mile away and they bugged him about shooting it down but he turnd down the order each time!!

Dont open your email. You will be a victim of a Nigerian scam.
 

HombrePequeno

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2001
4,657
0
0
Originally posted by: freshgeardude
abount the jew conspiracy i have somthing to tell you. mostly all muslims in NY knew about what was gonna happen on 9/11 because my bros friend's friend worked in the wtc and she called a cab to pick her up and it was muslim and she said take me to wtc and he kicked her out and said im not going there today and she called 2 more cabs and the both were muslims and they both said the same thing and then after she heard about the planes crashing. so muslims knew. also the plane that hit the pentagon was a fighter jet and there was a gas station's camera that was filming the gas station but had a wide lens so it taped the whole thing and after it it the pentagon the secrect service consfiscated the tape and told them to never say a word again or there will be charges and like a year ago they gave 2 frames of the video out and they were 2 frames after it hit the building so the us governmet knew about 9/11 and the secratry of defense could of shot the plain down 15 miles away but he didnt give the order even when it was 1 mile away and they bugged him about shooting it down but he turnd down the order each time!!

Okay...

:roll:
 

Kenazo

Lifer
Sep 15, 2000
10,429
1
81
I support their right to defend themselves. I think they're going a bit overboard and escalated this beyond what was necessary.

That said, perhaps if a group within and just outside of our borders refused to admit our right to live, then I might have a different view as well.

Canadian Christian.