Suggestions for a mid range card.

shrumpage

Golden Member
Mar 1, 2004
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I am in the process of putting togather a new computer based on an AMD 64 3800. I have everything pretty much figured out, 'cept the video card. After spending the last couple of days figuring out the different chips and the variations of those chips i've narrowed it down to these midrange chips:

7600GT
X1600
X850 XT
6600

I need to keep the price around 150 (give or take a little). Right now i'm leaning toward the x850, for the 16 pipelines and more speed. But is it worth it trading some speed for the HDR support of the x1600 and the 7600? The games that support the HDR (like oblivion) run any good on those cards? Just looking for opinions on the above chip sets.

I usually play HL2, CS:S, Guildwars, BF2, - i have Oblivion, but it doesn't run all that good on my current setup: AMD 2500xp, with a 9800pro.


Normally i wouldn't post for this type of broad adviced, but the choice of video cards is pretty confusing.
 

LW07

Golden Member
Feb 16, 2006
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Originally posted by: shrumpage
I am in the process of putting togather a new computer based on an AMD 64 3800. I have everything pretty much figured out, 'cept the video card. After spending the last couple of days figuring out the different chips and the variations of those chips i've narrowed it down to these midrange chips:

7600GT
X1600
X850 XT
6600

I need to keep the price around 150 (give or take a little). Right now i'm leaning toward the x850, for the 16 pipelines and more speed. But is it worth it trading some speed for the HDR support of the x1600 and the 7600? The games that support the HDR (like oblivion) run any good on those cards? Just looking for opinions on the above chip sets.

I usually play HL2, CS:S, Guildwars, BF2, - i have Oblivion, but it doesn't run all that good on my current setup: AMD 2500xp, with a 9800pro.


Normally i wouldn't post for this type of broad adviced, but the choice of video cards is pretty confusing.

Definitly don't get an X1600 or a 6600. So that rules those 2 out.

I personally would recommend the 7600GT because it has SM3 support, which might be needed for future games, but the X850XT would be a bit faster and better if you aren't worried about that.

I would recommend waiting until AMD's price drop so that you can get an X2 3800+ instead of a single-core 3800+, if you were thinking about the single core version, as your computer right now is good enough to hold out until then:

http://images.dailytech.com/nimage/2094_large_amd_pricing_1023.png
Just in case you were wondering where I was getting the AMD pricing.
 

akshayt

Banned
Feb 13, 2004
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What you are doing is not right.
Rather get Amd 3000 + 1800XT rather than 3800 + 1800GTO

You can oc the cpu and even if you don't a lower card will crap your performacne, also waity for c2d if you can can.

get atleast a 7900G or X1800XT or at the very least a 1800XL

anyway between those options i would either get 7600GT or 1800XL or 1800GTO
 

LW07

Golden Member
Feb 16, 2006
1,537
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Originally posted by: akshayt
What you are doing is not right.
Rather get Amd 3000 + 1800XT rather than 3800 + 1800GTO

You can oc the cpu and even if you don't a lower card will crap your performacne, also waity for c2d if you can can.

get atleast a 7900G or X1800XT or at the very least a 1800XL

anyway between those options i would either get 7600GT or 1800XL or 1800GTO

I agree with that except for 2 things. First of all, he could get a 3500+ for not much more than a 3000+.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16819103639
Athlon 64 3000+ AM2 $91

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16819103537
Athlon 64 3000+ S939 $92

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16819103633
Athlon 64 3500+ AM2 $109

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16819103603
Athlon 64 3500+ S939 $111

I put 4 instead of 2 so that you could see what socket you want.
Plus, his budget is at $150 for a video card, so going down on the CPU isn't going to save him enough for an X1800XT, even if he went for a 3000+. It'd bring his budget up to $210, which wouldn't be enough for an X1800XT even after an MIR, unless he can spare $20 more.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814102008
X1800XT 256mb $260($230 after MIR).

Also, future games will be more optimized towards dual core CPUs.
 

iamaelephant

Diamond Member
Jul 25, 2004
3,816
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I would recommend the 7600GT. I have just upgraded to an Athlon 64 3500+ and 7600GT and I really couldn't be happier. I love this card.
 

dreddfunk

Senior member
Jun 30, 2005
358
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I have some direct experience that hopefully will help you in your decision-making process. I was running Oblivion with a AMD 3700 (Clawhammer)/9700pro setup, before upgrading to the x850xt.

If you look at the Oblivion CPU article here on AT, my 3700 would fall somewhere between the s939 3700 (at 2.2Ghz/1MB L2) and the 4000 (2.4Ghz/1MB L2)--or, quite honestly, very close to either the 3800 (2.4Ghz/512K L2) single or X2 3800 (2.0Ghz/512K L2 x2). If you cross-reference these charts versus the new benchmarks that compare Conroe to the AMD offerings, you can get a good idea of the new price/performance ratios come 7/23. While availability and pricing may prevent using a Conroe (cheapest is around $180 list, IIRC), they still will push the prices of all other CPUs, AMD and Intel, down dramatically. You may find that the price cuts will impact what you feel will be your best price/performer.

In general, I think some of the folks advice about prioritizing GPU performance is merited for most games. Oblivion, however, is a peculiar bird, as these AT charts indicate: http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=2747&p=4

Summed up, they indicate that outdoor settings in Oblivion (the Great Forest, Oblivion Gates, etc.) are heavily GPU dependent, while "indoor" settings (town & dungeon) are more affected by CPU performance.

Yet, the maxim of prioritizing GPU still applies here for the most part. If you look at the average frame-rates achievable by lower-clocked CPUs in town and dungeon settings, they're still acceptable (fps in the low 30s), while the wrong GPU begins to make certain settins in Oblivion unplayable (dropping well below 20fps).

I have a 3700 Clawhammer paired with an x850xt and generally Oblivion performs well at 1280x1024--with a lot of .ini and graphical tweaking. The fact is, right from the box, very little below the x1800xt/x1900xt(x), 7900gt(x)/7950gx2 can really plow through Oblivion at resolutions higher than 1280x1024 with all of the settings maximized at default .ini settings. You can check out the AT article on Oblivion GPU performance here: http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2746

Those charts went a long way towards convincing me to choose the x850xt. Although it can't run SM3 and true HDR in Oblivion, most of the cards that can (7600, x1600, x1800gto) in the mid-range price (~$100-200) perform a decent clip below the x850xt when you do enable HDR and don't necessarily beat it when it comes to Bloom. As you can see, at default, the x850xt will generally outperform the 7600 with Bloom enabled: http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2746&p=5

While the x1800gto does beat it out, it also costs more. Neither one, once you enable HDR, really achieves acceptable frame-rates, coming in at around 15fps give or take.

In all of this I'm basically ignoring the Town and Dungeon benchmarks and focusing strictly on the Oblivion Gate benchmark. Why? Because all three cards (7600gt, x850xt, x1800gto) do a very fine job giving you acceptable frame-rates in those settings. The 7600gt comes out ahead in some, even. But the difference between averaging 20fps, with a minimum around 15, in the high-stress situations (for the x850xt) versus averaging 17, with minimums in the single digits (for the 7600gt) was more important--to me--than averaging 73fps (7600gt) over 67fps (x850xt) in town settings.

In the end, I'd balance your CPU/GPU choice with two or three things in mind:

1) Prices are dropping on 7/23 and all the price/performance ratios will be affected.

2) After 7/23 there may be no reason not to consider dual-core. The slight benefits of a faster single-core CPU for some gaming (IF you pair it will a GPU that can bring out those benefits) may not outweighed the improved responsiveness of a dual-core machine while multi-tasking with your normal applications.

3) Decide how much running Oblivion well means to you right now. I'd say that the 7600gt is a better GPU choice, in some sense, than an x850xt. I don't think it's a better choice for Oblivion, however.

Personally, I didn't want to spend hundreds of dollars on a GPU--nor did I want to wait a year for a $150, Oblivion-SM3/HDR-capable GPU, in order to play Oblivion. I got the x850xt and have been--in the main--happy with it. It's not going to run the game like an x1800xt/1900xt, but it doesn't do badly. It was a significant step up from my 9700pro.

Hope this helps! If you actually want specifics about my Oblivion experiences (resolution, settings, fps)--just let me know.
 

blckgrffn

Diamond Member
May 1, 2003
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www.teamjuchems.com
I'll vouch for the x850xt at this point as well. I have gone through a lot of cards, and this was simply the best value about a month ago when I was looking to try a different card again.

The one thing to be aware of is that the x850xt will require more of your power supply than the 7600GT.

Importantly, the x850xt is champ of source engine HDR (hl:2 EP1, CS:S) so the only games you are losing support of on that list is Oblivion, which probably won't be to playable on a 7600GT as it is. I use my x850xt for all the other games other than Oblivion on your list, and it runs them great maxed out @ 1440*900.

Nat
 

shrumpage

Golden Member
Mar 1, 2004
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Thanks guys!

Some greate advice, i'm leaning toward the the x850xt, but haven't ruled out the 7600gt - the other stuff is no longer on the table. Either way, due to the announced price drops of the CPUs i'll be waiting another week before placing an order.

Side note: This will be my 5th major video card i've bought: 3D-fx Monster(glquake !!), Stealth III, Geforce 4 4200, and an 9800pro and this has been by far the most confusing time.
 

dreddfunk

Senior member
Jun 30, 2005
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Confusing is right--changes from SM2 to SM3, introduction of HDR, maturation of dual-card/dual-gpu solutions, unified architectures and DX10 just around the corner.

On top of it all, you seem to have far greater price-point discrimination/saturation than a few years back. The battle is no longer simply low/mid/high-end, but just about every conceivable price/performance-point, made worse by the speed with which generations of GPUs come and go.
 

schneiderguy

Lifer
Jun 26, 2006
10,801
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Originally posted by: blckgrffn

Oblivion, which probably won't be to playable on a 7600GT as it is.

since when do you need a $500 video card to have games be "playable"? a 7600gt runs oblivion great at 1024*768 with everything maxed out or at 1280*1024 with some things turned down (grass)



 

Golgatha

Lifer
Jul 18, 2003
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Since you're going AMD, I would (as others have suggested) wait a bit for the expected X2 price drops and then take the plunge. If you get a nVidia board, I'd lean more towards the 7600GT since you could SLI later at a reduced cost. You'll most likely not miss the bit of extra speed from the X850XT and SM3.0 may be required in the near future. Seems like you don't upgrade often, so the 7600GT would be a bit more futureproof. If you can swing it, I would highly recommend a X1800XT also, but for the $150 mark, the 7600GT is an excellent value. Just my $0.02.
 

shrumpage

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Mar 1, 2004
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I usually have tried to upgrade every two years. Due to "life" i've had to push this upgrade a back little longer.

Questions about SLI: I"ve seen power supplies labeled "SLI," do you need an SLI power supply to suppport SLI?

 

blckgrffn

Diamond Member
May 1, 2003
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Not neccessarily, especially with the 7600GT's in SLI. The bigger cards probably need it.

Frankly, expect to spend some decent money on a power supply ~$100. I hate to say it, but if you are thinking of going with an xt or possibly 7600GT SLI and keep your hardware for several years, you need to consider some formidable wattage. Overkill? It is, but probably not as much as you would think.

Can you get away with a $50 fortron or whatever? Sure, you probably can, but I have had nothing with headaches with this generation of CPU's, vid cards, and mobo's when combined with cheaper power supplies. Cheaper as in they cost more than the case. Just something to think about and budget for.

Nat
 

Golgatha

Lifer
Jul 18, 2003
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Originally posted by: shrumpage
I usually have tried to upgrade every two years. Due to "life" i've had to push this upgrade a back little longer.

Questions about SLI: I"ve seen power supplies labeled "SLI," do you need an SLI power supply to suppport SLI?

As long as you have enough on the 12V rail to support your system you'll be fine. What PS to you have now and how many amps on the 12V rail?

 

dreddfunk

Senior member
Jun 30, 2005
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since when do you need a $500 video card to have games be "playable"? a 7600gt runs oblivion great at 1024*768 with everything maxed out or at 1280*1024 with some things turned down (grass)

I agree for the most part. My only frame of reference is my experience with my x850xt and while I've been very pleased with it, I also seriously considered the 7600. I was really attracted to its features: low power, small form, etc. All in all it's a fantastic card--no need to take offense on the 7600's part, it doesn't need any 'defense'. I'd still stand by my suggestion that the x850xt is better for Oblivion, and the AT benches (among others) bear that out.

Given that DX10 was coming sometime in the not too distant future (at least before I'd really want to upgrade a $400 GPU, which is a lot of money for many of us) and at the time I purchased, most of the 7600gt's were a little more expensive as well, for me it was the smart choice.

I've pretty much decided that my GPU is the one component in my PC that is likely to receive either: a) an update every year, or, b) a really expensive update every two to three years.

Christmas 2007 will likely be my next target for a GPU, depending on market conditions.
 

shrumpage

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Mar 1, 2004
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I'm aware about getting a decent power supply - I know what bad ones can do. Currently i have TTGI 420W, which has gone a little wonky. When you shutdown the computer, the computer shuts off, but the power supply still powers fans. It doesn't appear to be hurting anything, but i don't want to take chances on new rig. If i want it off completely, i have throw the switch on the back of the unit.

I"m looking at getting a 500watt replacement, and not a cheapy.
 

LittleNemoNES

Diamond Member
Oct 7, 2005
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Originally posted by: shrumpage
I'm aware about getting a decent power supply - I know what bad ones can do. Currently i have TTGI 420W, which has gone a little wonky. When you shutdown the computer, the computer shuts off, but the power supply still powers fans. It doesn't appear to be hurting anything, but i don't want to take chances on new rig. If i want it off completely, i have throw the switch on the back of the unit.

I"m looking at getting a 500watt replacement, and not a cheapy.

that's actually pretty normal and a good feature it makes sure your PS is properly cooled after use. My Enermax Noisetaker 600w SLi PSU does the same thing.
 

shrumpage

Golden Member
Mar 1, 2004
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Originally posted by: gersson
Originally posted by: shrumpage
I'm aware about getting a decent power supply - I know what bad ones can do. Currently i have TTGI 420W, which has gone a little wonky. When you shutdown the computer, the computer shuts off, but the power supply still powers fans. It doesn't appear to be hurting anything, but i don't want to take chances on new rig. If i want it off completely, i have throw the switch on the back of the unit.

I"m looking at getting a 500watt replacement, and not a cheapy.

that's actually pretty normal and a good feature it makes sure your PS is properly cooled after use. My Enermax Noisetaker 600w SLi PSU does the same thing.

The PSU fan spinning is fine, if it shuts off after a bit, but this has all the fans going, including the water cooling pump and the lights. It will never completely shut off.
 

LittleNemoNES

Diamond Member
Oct 7, 2005
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Oh, I see. man that sucks. Take a good look @ your bios and see if there's any setting that may apply to that problem.
 

shrumpage

Golden Member
Mar 1, 2004
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I swapped PSU from another computer, and the problem ceased - its a bad PSU. Little bummed, it was a good power supply.