• Guest, The rules for the P & N subforum have been updated to prohibit "ad hominem" or personal attacks against other posters. See the full details in the post "Politics and News Rules & Guidelines."

Study: US is an oligarchy, not a democracy

Page 2 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

Zaap

Diamond Member
Jun 12, 2008
7,162
423
126
Use your head. Spell out a specific enforcement method for what you want to have happen and watch your consensus disintegrate.

Its dishonest people such as yourself that are trying to spin this by implying a consensus where none exists. Lie, lie, lie.
It's amazing- literally *EVERYTHING* for you is spin. Everything.

So now -going by your spin- things can only get done based upon 'consensus', not based on any other factor like common sense, or what works. So every law that we have, every single person agrees with, no opposing opinions at all. The only qualification ever for passing anything that needs doing is 100% consensus.

Also of course, NO NATION, least of the most successful on the planet, has ever figured out immigration. So it's of course an impossible task just to enforce immigration laws as they exist, since of course no one has ever figured out how to do this. Every country just allows anyone to walk in and take a job, no questions asked. I'm sure you're on your way right now to any country you wish in order to do this and stay as long as you like with no visa and take over some native's job for peanuts just so you can live somewhere else. You of course know that no one has ever figured out a way to deter this; there's no consensus.


So of course, going by this spin, since it can never be as simple as "get caught hiring people illegally, pay steep fines, possibly lose your business" we have to just wait around twiddling our thumbs waiting for a magical 'consensus' that everyone agrees with on what to do.

LOL@ the crazy-top spinning world of a crazed leftist spinmeister!
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
72,587
23,686
136
I think 78% and 93% are about as large of a consensus as you are ever going to get out of the American people. 93% thinking it is important to "halt" illegal immigration is pretty specific. However, congress/federal agencies are making no real effort to "halt" illegal immigration.

I agree, I doubt any one specific plan would get 93% of people, but I am sure most of the 93% would be okay with "catch them at the border and send them home."
And if "catching them at the border and sending them home" cost tens or hundreds of billions a year? If it led to a lot of deaths and human rights violations? What if it meant raising taxes, cutting popular programs, etc? Still think most of them would be ok with it?

That's all kind of my point, that people are ok with things in the abstract but not in practice.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
72,587
23,686
136
It's amazing- literally *EVERYTHING* for you is spin. Everything.

So now -going by your spin- things can only get done based upon 'consensus', not based on any other factor like common sense, or what works. So every law that we have, every single person agrees with, no opposing opinions at all. The only qualification ever for passing anything that needs doing is 100% consensus.

Also of course, NO NATION, least of the most successful on the planet, has ever figured out immigration. So it's of course an impossible task just to enforce immigration laws as they exist, since of course no one has ever figured out how to do this. Every country just allows anyone to walk in and take a job, no questions asked. I'm sure you're on your way right now to any country you wish in order to do this and stay as long as you like with no visa and take over some native's job for peanuts just so you can live somewhere else. You of course know that no one has ever figured out a way to deter this; there's no consensus.


So of course, going by this spin, since it can never be as simple as "get caught hiring people illegally, pay steep fines, possibly lose your business" we have to just wait around twiddling our thumbs waiting for a magical 'consensus' that everyone agrees with on what to do.

LOL@ the crazy-top spinning world of a crazed leftist spinmeister!
I like how reminding you of an inconvenient reality is "spin". Then again when someone is as far in the right wing bubble as your are is confronted with how the real world works they usually seem to lash out in a rage like this.
 

Zorba

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 1999
9,472
3,424
136
That's all kind of my point, that people are ok with things in the abstract but not in practice.
Well I do completely agree with that. But considering there has been practically no movement toward even coming up with proposed solutions shows congress has no intention of even attempting, against the will of 93% of the American people.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
72,587
23,686
136
Well I do completely agree with that. But considering there has been practically no movement toward even coming up with proposed solutions shows congress has no intention of even attempting, against the will of 93% of the American people.
I don't think that's true, it's just that both sides have incompatible aims. Hell, the Senate recently passed an immigration bill that was (for these days) impressively bipartisan. It provided tons of resources for securing the border, just as you like. It also provided a path to legalization for those already here. Conservatives in the House considered that to be a non-starter, despite the fact that 75%+ of Americans support such a move.

What we have here is simply two sides that are so polarized on a fundamental issue of the immigration debate that they can't get a bill passed.
 

Zaap

Diamond Member
Jun 12, 2008
7,162
423
126
I like how reminding you of an inconvenient reality is "spin". Then again when someone is as far in the right wing bubble as your are is confronted with how the real world works they usually seem to lash out in a rage like this.
Notice how you can't refute anything, just more spin.

So what country are you on your way to right now with no visa, planning to stay indefinitely in, taking jobs away from the native population? According to you, no one has ever figured out how to enforce against this (because there's no consensus!) so it's impossible for you to have any worries about doing it.

Or then again, you're full of shit, as usual.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
72,587
23,686
136
Notice how you can't refute anything, just more spin.

So what country are you on your way to right now with no visa, planning to stay indefinitely in, taking jobs away from the native population? According to you, no one has ever figured out how to enforce against this (because there's no consensus!) so it's impossible for you to have any worries about doing it.

Or then again, you're full of shit, as usual.
I already did refute what you said, you were just blinded by rage the minute anyone had the temerity to remind you of how the world works.
 

Zaap

Diamond Member
Jun 12, 2008
7,162
423
126
I already did refute what you said, you were just blinded by rage the minute anyone had the temerity to remind you of how the world works.
Right so you actually proved somehow that no nation has ever figured out how to enforce immigration laws and that only absolute consensus would allow them to? In other words; how you NEVER actually prove anything you spout or post anything of substance, just spin spin spin your top.

I of course was talking about the REAL WORLD, not the fantasy world you live in, spinning like a top in your mom's basement.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
Notice how you can't refute anything, just more spin.

So what country are you on your way to right now with no visa, planning to stay indefinitely in, taking jobs away from the native population? According to you, no one has ever figured out how to enforce against this (because there's no consensus!) so it's impossible for you to have any worries about doing it.

Or then again, you're full of shit, as usual.
Don't forget, the same person who says illegal immigration is too hard to solve is one who believes that congress can solve healthcare and the economy. You know, because those are so much simpler. And of course Obamacare was easy because we had consensus...
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
72,587
23,686
136
Right so you actually proved somehow that no nation has ever figured out how to enforce immigration laws and that only absolute consensus would allow them to? In other words; how you NEVER actually prove anything you spout or post anything of substance, just spin spin spin your top.

I of course was talking about the REAL WORLD, not the fantasy world you live in, spinning like a top in your mom's basement.
No, I'm saying that insufficient consensus exists to actually pass an immigration law, as was amply put on display with the recent death of the Senate bill in the House. If you understood the real world this would be pretty clear i'd think.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
72,587
23,686
136
Don't forget, the same person who says illegal immigration is too hard to solve is one who believes that congress can solve healthcare and the economy. You know, because those are so much simpler. And of course Obamacare was easy because we had consensus...
Your post doesn't make any sense. I don't think immigration is too hard to solve, it just hasn't been solved because not enough people agree on the means by which to do it.

With the ACA that clearly wasn't the case as... well... it's the law.
 

BurnItDwn

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
25,681
1,200
126
When corporations were ruled people that was the final nail in the coffin of democracy. The fact that money is officially free speech is proof that our corporate overlords have no intention to loosen their death grip on the nation.

We are fucked.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
Your post doesn't make any sense. I don't think immigration is too hard to solve, it just hasn't been solved because not enough people agree on the means by which to do it.

With the ACA that clearly wasn't the case as... well... it's the law.
You believe there was consensus on ACA? You only needs 50%+1 to pass a law. You don't think that can be achieved on immigration?

The reason there's no movement on immigration has nothing to do with agreement, it has to do with the fact that congress doesn't care what the electorate wants. Both sides have their own goals, wholly unaffected by the desires of their constituents.
 

Zaap

Diamond Member
Jun 12, 2008
7,162
423
126
No, I'm saying that insufficient consensus exists to actually pass an immigration law, as was amply put on display with the recent death of the Senate bill in the House. If you understood the real world this would be pretty clear i'd think.
Ahhh so it's the old spin that we have no existing immigration laws, never have apparently, and because there no consensus we have no immigration system until everyone agrees and we pass "an immigration law."

LOL! That is just precious! That's like toddler level naive and yet I think you actually buy this!

Not only do you spin like a top, you fall hook line and sinker for the most obvious spin yourself.
 

Zaap

Diamond Member
Jun 12, 2008
7,162
423
126
You believe there was consensus on ACA? You only needs 50%+1 to pass a law.
The only consensus a statist bootlicker needs is one of their puppet masters telling them "we have to pass the bill before we know what's in the bill."
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
72,587
23,686
136
You believe there was consensus on ACA? You only needs 50%+1 to pass a law. You don't think that can be achieved on immigration?

The reason there's no movement on immigration has nothing to do with agreement, it has to do with the fact that congress doesn't care what the electorate wants. Both sides have their own goals, wholly unaffected by the desires of their constituents.
No, clearly there isn't. House conservatives voted the bill down because of the fact that it provided a path to legalization for current illegals. Liberals won't vote for more border funding without that. Neither is willing to accept one without the other.

Pretty simple.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
72,587
23,686
136
Ahhh so it's the old spin that we have no existing immigration laws, never have apparently, and because there no consensus we have no immigration system until everyone agrees and we pass "an immigration law."

LOL! That is just precious! That's like toddler level naive and yet I think you actually buy this!

Not only do you spin like a top, you fall hook line and sinker for the most obvious spin yourself.
Lol, your insults aren't even consistent. Am I the dishonest spinner or the poor dupe? I can't be both.

Rage on, friend.
 

Zaap

Diamond Member
Jun 12, 2008
7,162
423
126
Lol, your insults aren't even consistent. Am I the dishonest spinner or the poor dupe? I can't be both.
Leave it to you that you even try to spin the fact that you are indeed both! What's amazing about it is what you constantly spin is just the horseshit you've been duped by. (Like that adorable notion that we have to pass "an immigration law" because we've never had any of those before, and certainly nothing in effect now. ) It's simply stunning how well the drumbeat of your puppet masters pounding that message into your pea brain worked on you, to where you constantly spin their nonsense for them.

And don't worry, there was never any doubt your both a tool and a spin meister.
 

ASK THE COMMUNITY