Story: Obama to sell B-2 bomber tech to Chinese for debt forgiveness

[JeffreyLebowski]

Originally posted by: Fox5
Isn't the B2 really old? I'd imagine China could easily design their own plane for the same purpose.

Well why not sell it to them? The probably already have the designs anyways. If and when they do build it it will fall apart just like everything else made in China. They may have a huge industrial complex and the ability to copy anything, the problem they face is they hurry to produce everything and thusly everything they produce falls apart.

 

[EXman]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I'll see those trillion in treasury bills and raise you 100 B1 Obombers,

hey man that was funny for once!

 

[JeffreyLebowski]

Originally posted by: DisgruntledVirus

Originally posted by: yllus

Originally posted by: Skoorb
Even the source you link to questions its credibility.

but it doesn't make any sense to send a B-2 to launch regular ordinace because of how damn much it'd cost the taxpayers if one somehow got shot down.

They are in operation, though, with regular ordnance. I think they dropped bombs at least initially in gulf war II.

Indeed they were! And they were escorted by a squadron of F-16s on those missions because, again, they cost too much to lose on fairly ordinary missions like those. Now ask yourself, why didn't they just have the F-16s themselves bomb the targets since they have the capability and you're losing the stealth advantage of the B-2 by escorting it anyways?

Well, they can't just sit in the hangar forever, can they?

I'm actually a huge fan of the B-2 and appreciate what Northrop Grumman went through to get them built. Beautiful, sleek, sexy plane it is. But it's got no real use today.

It was built for an age that has come and gone.

We no longer have wars between superpowers which was why they were built (for the WWII type wars). Now we have small wars between 3rd world countries and/or terrorists and moved away from the global wars into regional wars. That's not to say we won't in the future sometime, but hell we may have aliens come and obliterate the planet to make room for a galactic highway before that happens.

Who needs bombers when you have ICBMs?

 

[waggy]

Originally posted by: yllus

Originally posted by: SkoorbIndeed they were! And they were escorted by a squadron of F-16s on those missions because, again, they cost too much to lose on fairly ordinary missions like those. Now ask yourself, why didn't they just have the F-16s themselves bomb the targets since they have the capability and you're losing the stealth advantage of the B-2 by escorting it anyways?

Well, they can't just sit in the hangar forever, can they?

I'm actually a huge fan of the B-2 and appreciate what Northrop Grumman went through to get them built. Beautiful, sleek, sexy plane it is. But it's got no real use today.

the B-2 is amazing. but nothing beats the old B-17. it is my favorite plane (that and the A-10).

i had a really cool B-17 model when i was younger. it was all medal and maybe 24 inches long. it was a stand. my Grandfather on my mothers side flew in one as a gunner.

 

[EXman]

Originally posted by: BarrySotero

Originally posted by: Perknose

Originally posted by: XZeroII
Wasn't Clinton selling secrets to the Chinese before he left office?

No. That was a fanciful right wing myth/lie explicitly designed to influence credulous and woefully uniformed boobs . . . like, apparently, you.

Clinton did sign waivers to allow transfer of military tech to China. It was acknowledged by both the FBI and CIA that China had made donations to Clinton campaign and had direct access to White House. Clinton took military tech and removed it from State Dept oversight to "oversight" by commerce dept. Corporations themselves were then allowed to decide for themselves if technology should be considered secret/legal or not.

Bernard Schwartz and Michael Armstrong, the CEOs of Loral and Hughes, donated heavily to Clinton's re-election campaign. Clinton arranged talks between Bernard Schwartz and a Chinese general to improve China's rocket technology. Michael Armstrong was made head of the Export Advisory Council. Both companies were allowed to upgrade the missile tech of China. Clinton also signed waivers to allow for transfer of machine tools used to make silent submarine propellers.

Essay; China's Spy Ring

"On Sept. 13, 1995 a date that will live in Clinfamy -- a mid-level Commerce official with top-secret security clearance named John Huang entered the White House, listing as ''visitee'' Nancy Hernreich, the President's secretary.

That subterfuge was to conceal his presence at a 5:15 meeting in the Oval Office with President Clinton and the Lippo Group's James Riady, the Indonesian banker and financial contributor who had placed his longtime employee, Huang, in position to see U.S. secrets

?In rare agreement, the counterintelligence arm of the F.B.I. and counterspies in the C.I.A. approved this statement to be issued by the Senate next week:

There are indications that Chinese efforts in connection with the 1996 elections were undertaken or orchestrated, at least in part, by People?s Republic of China intelligence agencies.?

http://www.nytimes.com/1998/02...ople/C/Clinton,%20Bill


Wen Ho Lee, Johnny Chung, John Huang, Yah Lin "Charlie" Trie - the Clintons always had a shady Chinese person in the background because China bought the Clinton's - who would send tech over to China for money. It's a real tale of sleaze-baggery that was never addressed because Clinton DOJ dragged feet long enough so that 120 people targeted for investigation left the country.

In past few years Chinese subs surfaced undetected near US ships. Obviously Bill's help with the machine tools for silent propellers paid off.

I gues that guy was not so owned... We all know Clinton liked China's Money most of clintons fortune now is from overseas.

 

[DisgruntledVirus]

Originally posted by: JeffreyLebowski

Originally posted by: DisgruntledVirus

Originally posted by: yllus

Originally posted by: Skoorb
Even the source you link to questions its credibility.

but it doesn't make any sense to send a B-2 to launch regular ordinace because of how damn much it'd cost the taxpayers if one somehow got shot down.

They are in operation, though, with regular ordnance. I think they dropped bombs at least initially in gulf war II.

Indeed they were! And they were escorted by a squadron of F-16s on those missions because, again, they cost too much to lose on fairly ordinary missions like those. Now ask yourself, why didn't they just have the F-16s themselves bomb the targets since they have the capability and you're losing the stealth advantage of the B-2 by escorting it anyways?

Well, they can't just sit in the hangar forever, can they?

I'm actually a huge fan of the B-2 and appreciate what Northrop Grumman went through to get them built. Beautiful, sleek, sexy plane it is. But it's got no real use today.

It was built for an age that has come and gone.

We no longer have wars between superpowers which was why they were built (for the WWII type wars). Now we have small wars between 3rd world countries and/or terrorists and moved away from the global wars into regional wars. That's not to say we won't in the future sometime, but hell we may have aliens come and obliterate the planet to make room for a galactic highway before that happens.

Who needs bombers when you have ICBMs?

The same reason you still have nuclear submarines.

ICBM's are primarily housed on land, in silos, in permanent positions. Subs and B2's (among other aircraft) provide a launch system that is not in the same spot. You never quite know where they all are at, which helps provide increased security. If I know where all your ICBMs are (in land based silos for example), I can attempt to knock them out. If you have mobile ICBMs you are able to always have ICBMs launch capable.

Also, the ICBMs in subs/aircraft are able to be on target much sooner than our land based. It also provides alternate attack vectors than the direct line from country A to country B.

 

[JeffreyLebowski]

Originally posted by: DisgruntledVirus

Originally posted by: JeffreyLebowski

Originally posted by: DisgruntledVirus

Originally posted by: yllus

Originally posted by: Skoorb
Even the source you link to questions its credibility.

but it doesn't make any sense to send a B-2 to launch regular ordinace because of how damn much it'd cost the taxpayers if one somehow got shot down.

They are in operation, though, with regular ordnance. I think they dropped bombs at least initially in gulf war II.

Indeed they were! And they were escorted by a squadron of F-16s on those missions because, again, they cost too much to lose on fairly ordinary missions like those. Now ask yourself, why didn't they just have the F-16s themselves bomb the targets since they have the capability and you're losing the stealth advantage of the B-2 by escorting it anyways?

Well, they can't just sit in the hangar forever, can they?

I'm actually a huge fan of the B-2 and appreciate what Northrop Grumman went through to get them built. Beautiful, sleek, sexy plane it is. But it's got no real use today.

It was built for an age that has come and gone.

We no longer have wars between superpowers which was why they were built (for the WWII type wars). Now we have small wars between 3rd world countries and/or terrorists and moved away from the global wars into regional wars. That's not to say we won't in the future sometime, but hell we may have aliens come and obliterate the planet to make room for a galactic highway before that happens.

Who needs bombers when you have ICBMs?

The same reason you still have nuclear submarines.

ICBM's are primarily housed on land, in silos, in permanent positions. Subs and B2's (among other aircraft) provide a launch system that is not in the same spot. You never quite know where they all are at, which helps provide increased security. If I know where all your ICBMs are (in land based silos for example), I can attempt to knock them out. If you have mobile ICBMs you are able to always have ICBMs launch capable.

Also, the ICBMs in subs/aircraft are able to be on target much sooner than our land based. It also provides alternate attack vectors than the direct line from country A to country B.

Besides Russia, show me one military power that has the ability to hit Montana, Wyoming, and the Dakotas.
My state ment about bombers still stands, As you pointed out, we have Subs that carry ICBMs and most military targets are going to be within striking distance from the coast of an ocean or accessible sea. Bombers are to slow and can be shot down a lot easier than launching an ICBM from a submerged sub.

 

[DisgruntledVirus]

Originally posted by: JeffreyLebowski

Besides Russia, show me one military power that has the ability to hit Montana, Wyoming, and the Dakotas.
My state ment about bombers still stands, As you pointed out, we have Subs that carry ICBMs and most military targets are going to be within striking distance from the coast of an ocean or accessible sea. Bombers are to slow and can be shot down a lot easier than launching an ICBM from a submerged sub.

Without a doubt subs>bombers in current day form for a nuclear strike.

France has subs with 6000 km range missiles, and Great Brittan has sea based ICBMs as well.

Yes, they are both allies but I just wanted to answer your question about other military powers that have the ability to hit our ICBM silos. I agree with you, but having planes gives us just another way to launch if need be. Do I think we should spend as much as we do on air power for nuclear means? No, but I do see the need for it.

 

[heyheybooboo]

Originally posted by: EXman

Originally posted by: BarrySotero

Originally posted by: Perknose

Originally posted by: XZeroII
Wasn't Clinton selling secrets to the Chinese before he left office?

No. That was a fanciful right wing myth/lie explicitly designed to influence credulous and woefully uniformed boobs . . . like, apparently, you.

Clinton did sign waivers to allow transfer of military tech to China. It was acknowledged by both the FBI and CIA that China had made donations to Clinton campaign and had direct access to White House. Clinton took military tech and removed it from State Dept oversight to "oversight" by commerce dept. Corporations themselves were then allowed to decide for themselves if technology should be considered secret/legal or not.

Bernard Schwartz and Michael Armstrong, the CEOs of Loral and Hughes, donated heavily to Clinton's re-election campaign. Clinton arranged talks between Bernard Schwartz and a Chinese general to improve China's rocket technology. Michael Armstrong was made head of the Export Advisory Council. Both companies were allowed to upgrade the missile tech of China. Clinton also signed waivers to allow for transfer of machine tools used to make silent submarine propellers.

Essay; China's Spy Ring

"On Sept. 13, 1995 a date that will live in Clinfamy -- a mid-level Commerce official with top-secret security clearance named John Huang entered the White House, listing as ''visitee'' Nancy Hernreich, the President's secretary.

That subterfuge was to conceal his presence at a 5:15 meeting in the Oval Office with President Clinton and the Lippo Group's James Riady, the Indonesian banker and financial contributor who had placed his longtime employee, Huang, in position to see U.S. secrets

?In rare agreement, the counterintelligence arm of the F.B.I. and counterspies in the C.I.A. approved this statement to be issued by the Senate next week:

There are indications that Chinese efforts in connection with the 1996 elections were undertaken or orchestrated, at least in part, by People?s Republic of China intelligence agencies.?

http://www.nytimes.com/1998/02...ople/C/Clinton,%20Bill


Wen Ho Lee, Johnny Chung, John Huang, Yah Lin "Charlie" Trie - the Clintons always had a shady Chinese person in the background because China bought the Clinton's - who would send tech over to China for money. It's a real tale of sleaze-baggery that was never addressed because Clinton DOJ dragged feet long enough so that 120 people targeted for investigation left the country.

In past few years Chinese subs surfaced undetected near US ships. Obviously Bill's help with the machine tools for silent propellers paid off.

I gues that guy was not so owned... We all know Clinton liked China's Money most of clintons fortune now is from overseas.

The p'wnage is on you. Climb on board the Fail Train.

Reagan and Bush, Sr. initiated US commercial satellite launches thru the Commerce Dept. with China. IIRC even The Heritage Foundation backed 'em up on it.

Stringing together innuendo and loosely wrapped facts into propaganda for partisan political gain is why you will be forever banished to minority status. Americans are tired of it and this thread is a perfect example of it ...

Bull sheet, that is.

 

[ZeGermans]

but then what useless weapon system will fascists masturbate over while millions starve to death?

 

[Pens1566]

Originally posted by: ZeGermans
but then what useless weapon system will fascists masturbate over while millions starve to death?

Stii have missile defense shields that don't work even in completely rigged tests

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: DisgruntledVirus

Originally posted by: JeffreyLebowski

Besides Russia, show me one military power that has the ability to hit Montana, Wyoming, and the Dakotas.
My state ment about bombers still stands, As you pointed out, we have Subs that carry ICBMs and most military targets are going to be within striking distance from the coast of an ocean or accessible sea. Bombers are to slow and can be shot down a lot easier than launching an ICBM from a submerged sub.

Without a doubt subs>bombers in current day form for a nuclear strike.

France has subs with 6000 km range missiles, and Great Brittan has sea based ICBMs as well.

Yes, they are both allies but I just wanted to answer your question about other military powers that have the ability to hit our ICBM silos. I agree with you, but having planes gives us just another way to launch if need be. Do I think we should spend as much as we do on air power for nuclear means? No, but I do see the need for it.

You forgot Canada's Fire Goose SL rockets based in Northern Ontario with a strike range of 14,000 km. Most people haven't even heard of them and most among those who have deny their existence as only myth and legend, but I have seen them with my own eyes.

 

[Pepsei]

Originally posted by: JeffreyLebowski

Originally posted by: Fox5
Isn't the B2 really old? I'd imagine China could easily design their own plane for the same purpose.

Well why not sell it to them? The probably already have the designs anyways. If and when they do build it it will fall apart just like everything else made in China. They may have a huge industrial complex and the ability to copy anything, the problem they face is they hurry to produce everything and thusly everything they produce falls apart.

but seriously, you should give credit where credit is due.....
i know they have the ability to make poison quite well, especially as food additive......

 

[sapiens74]

weren't they going to steal it anyway.

At least he can get something out of it

 

[Aegeon]

For those who still don't get it, there isn't a snowball's chance in hell that China is going to be deliberately allowed to even look at tech directly associated with the B-2 bomber by the US let alone be sold even one. Its still some of the US's most classified military technology.

(The tech talked about with regards to missile technology previously all was dual use and had legitimate civillian uses as well.)

The individuals making the claims that this should happen should frankly be institutionalized. (I'll cut some slack to those reacting to the story linked here since many apparently don't know better.)

 

[JeffreyLebowski]

Originally posted by: Aegeon
For those who still don't get it, there isn't a snowball's chance in hell that China is going to be deliberately allowed to even look at tech directly associated with the B-2 bomber by the US let alone be sold even one. Its still some of the US's most classified military technology.

(The tech talked about with regards to missile technology previously all was dual use and had legitimate civillian uses as well.)

The individuals making the claims that this should happen should frankly be institutionalized. (I'll cut some slack to those reacting to the story linked here since many apparently don't know better.)

Let's face it. The Chinese already have the plans for it http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/1113/dailyUpdate.html
If we can get money for it why not?

 

[Aegeon]

Originally posted by: JeffreyLebowski
Let's face it. The Chinese already have the plans for it http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/1113/dailyUpdate.html
If we can get money for it why not?

You're mistaken. (At least based on anything resembling public knowledge.) Yes, China apparently got SOME information about the B-2 bomber, but it certainly wasn't complete plans or information for such a complex system.

Selling the B-2 bomber or too many additional details about it would be wildly against the interest of the US because it would not only potentially allow China to start producing sophisticated stealth bombers, but also potentially incorperate stealth technology into its future fighters and attack aircraft. This would potentially give China's Air Force a huge boost in capabilities and potenitally mean the US could no longer sucessfully deal with China militarily in situations where current we can due to air and naval superiority. (There are plenty of situations where China couldn't really bring the size of its land based army forces into play, or could only project a tiny portion of it.) Keep in mind its not merely about an actual military conflict, but also the likely outcome impacting any sort of negotiations which potentially could lead to military hostilities.

 

[XZeroII]

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo

Originally posted by: EXman

Originally posted by: BarrySotero

Originally posted by: Perknose

Originally posted by: XZeroII
Wasn't Clinton selling secrets to the Chinese before he left office?

No. That was a fanciful right wing myth/lie explicitly designed to influence credulous and woefully uniformed boobs . . . like, apparently, you.

Clinton did sign waivers to allow transfer of military tech to China. It was acknowledged by both the FBI and CIA that China had made donations to Clinton campaign and had direct access to White House. Clinton took military tech and removed it from State Dept oversight to "oversight" by commerce dept. Corporations themselves were then allowed to decide for themselves if technology should be considered secret/legal or not.

Bernard Schwartz and Michael Armstrong, the CEOs of Loral and Hughes, donated heavily to Clinton's re-election campaign. Clinton arranged talks between Bernard Schwartz and a Chinese general to improve China's rocket technology. Michael Armstrong was made head of the Export Advisory Council. Both companies were allowed to upgrade the missile tech of China. Clinton also signed waivers to allow for transfer of machine tools used to make silent submarine propellers.

Essay; China's Spy Ring

"On Sept. 13, 1995 a date that will live in Clinfamy -- a mid-level Commerce official with top-secret security clearance named John Huang entered the White House, listing as ''visitee'' Nancy Hernreich, the President's secretary.

That subterfuge was to conceal his presence at a 5:15 meeting in the Oval Office with President Clinton and the Lippo Group's James Riady, the Indonesian banker and financial contributor who had placed his longtime employee, Huang, in position to see U.S. secrets

?In rare agreement, the counterintelligence arm of the F.B.I. and counterspies in the C.I.A. approved this statement to be issued by the Senate next week:

There are indications that Chinese efforts in connection with the 1996 elections were undertaken or orchestrated, at least in part, by People?s Republic of China intelligence agencies.?

http://www.nytimes.com/1998/02...ople/C/Clinton,%20Bill


Wen Ho Lee, Johnny Chung, John Huang, Yah Lin "Charlie" Trie - the Clintons always had a shady Chinese person in the background because China bought the Clinton's - who would send tech over to China for money. It's a real tale of sleaze-baggery that was never addressed because Clinton DOJ dragged feet long enough so that 120 people targeted for investigation left the country.

In past few years Chinese subs surfaced undetected near US ships. Obviously Bill's help with the machine tools for silent propellers paid off.

I gues that guy was not so owned... We all know Clinton liked China's Money most of clintons fortune now is from overseas.

The p'wnage is on you. Climb on board the Fail Train.

Reagan and Bush, Sr. initiated US commercial satellite launches thru the Commerce Dept. with China. IIRC even The Heritage Foundation backed 'em up on it.

Stringing together innuendo and loosely wrapped facts into propaganda for partisan political gain is why you will be forever banished to minority status. Americans are tired of it and this thread is a perfect example of it ...

Bull sheet, that is.

Notice how those who don't believe that Clinton did this commonly resort to hatred and mockery. I'm sorry, but your replies are laughable.

Also, you instruct people to 'Climb on board the Fail Train. This implies that you are already on the Fail Train and would like other to join you...

 

[Sacrilege]

Originally posted by: XZeroII

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo

Originally posted by: EXman

Originally posted by: BarrySotero

Originally posted by: Perknose

Originally posted by: XZeroII
Wasn't Clinton selling secrets to the Chinese before he left office?

No. That was a fanciful right wing myth/lie explicitly designed to influence credulous and woefully uniformed boobs . . . like, apparently, you.

Clinton did sign waivers to allow transfer of military tech to China. It was acknowledged by both the FBI and CIA that China had made donations to Clinton campaign and had direct access to White House. Clinton took military tech and removed it from State Dept oversight to "oversight" by commerce dept. Corporations themselves were then allowed to decide for themselves if technology should be considered secret/legal or not.

Bernard Schwartz and Michael Armstrong, the CEOs of Loral and Hughes, donated heavily to Clinton's re-election campaign. Clinton arranged talks between Bernard Schwartz and a Chinese general to improve China's rocket technology. Michael Armstrong was made head of the Export Advisory Council. Both companies were allowed to upgrade the missile tech of China. Clinton also signed waivers to allow for transfer of machine tools used to make silent submarine propellers.

Essay; China's Spy Ring

"On Sept. 13, 1995 a date that will live in Clinfamy -- a mid-level Commerce official with top-secret security clearance named John Huang entered the White House, listing as ''visitee'' Nancy Hernreich, the President's secretary.

That subterfuge was to conceal his presence at a 5:15 meeting in the Oval Office with President Clinton and the Lippo Group's James Riady, the Indonesian banker and financial contributor who had placed his longtime employee, Huang, in position to see U.S. secrets

?In rare agreement, the counterintelligence arm of the F.B.I. and counterspies in the C.I.A. approved this statement to be issued by the Senate next week:

There are indications that Chinese efforts in connection with the 1996 elections were undertaken or orchestrated, at least in part, by People?s Republic of China intelligence agencies.?

http://www.nytimes.com/1998/02...ople/C/Clinton,%20Bill


Wen Ho Lee, Johnny Chung, John Huang, Yah Lin "Charlie" Trie - the Clintons always had a shady Chinese person in the background because China bought the Clinton's - who would send tech over to China for money. It's a real tale of sleaze-baggery that was never addressed because Clinton DOJ dragged feet long enough so that 120 people targeted for investigation left the country.

In past few years Chinese subs surfaced undetected near US ships. Obviously Bill's help with the machine tools for silent propellers paid off.

I gues that guy was not so owned... We all know Clinton liked China's Money most of clintons fortune now is from overseas.

The p'wnage is on you. Climb on board the Fail Train.

Reagan and Bush, Sr. initiated US commercial satellite launches thru the Commerce Dept. with China. IIRC even The Heritage Foundation backed 'em up on it.

Stringing together innuendo and loosely wrapped facts into propaganda for partisan political gain is why you will be forever banished to minority status. Americans are tired of it and this thread is a perfect example of it ...

Bull sheet, that is.

Notice how those who don't believe that Clinton did this commonly resort to hatred and mockery. I'm sorry, but your replies are laughable.

Also, you instruct people to 'Climb on board the Fail Train. This implies that you are already on the Fail Train and would like other to join you...

People resort to mockery because every "source" is some wingnut spin based on innuendo and insinuation.

So some Chinese government agents contributed to Clinton's campaign.... name the weapon systems and or technologies he passed to them.... Specific systems.

Tying Clinton to China is a perfect storm for the chicken littles of the right. Their big bad domestic boogey man, with their international boogey man who they have an absolute fetish for.

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: glenn1

Topic Title: Story: Obama to sell B-2 bomber tech to Chinese for debt forgiveness

Are you sure you didn't mean H-2's? :laugh:

Topic Title: GM to sell Hummer to Chinese company

 

[techs]

The difference in political philosophies really shows in this thread.
It basically a bullshit post, from a second hand unreliable source that at this point is just something someone made up. And you can find many of these right wing bullshit threads on in this forum. Just made up crap that gets hundreds of posts. And many people keep posting like its true.
But let someone post about a real issue and that issue should offend the righties than its locked pronto.
Now I know why we are in such deep shit.
That this thread wasn't locked immediately, well, you get my point.