Stop Spending My Tax Cut!

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jjm

Golden Member
Oct 9, 1999
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I agree, Jelly.

I just think it is more blatant than usual this year, especially when it was clear that the party of self-proclaimed "fiscal restraint" holds the purse strings in both chambers.
 

AndrewR

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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jjm:

<< You know that there are 100 senators, two from each state, right? >>


Again, I ask -- are you stupid? 87 votes were counted for the largest appropriations bill mentioned. According to your friend DukeLeto, there are currently 54 Republican Senators. Therefore, since I suppose it has to be REALLY obvious for you, at least 33 Democrats had to vote for that bill.

After some research, here are the figures for those two vote counts:

On the 87-8 vote cited in the article, 6 out of the 8 who voted against the bill were Republicans, including Phil Gramm, John McCain, and James Inhofe. Lieberman did not vote, nor did Kennedy among the uncounted. So, if anyone opposed the package, it was majority Republican.

Out of the 37 Senators that voted against the second package, the breakdown is 19 Republicans and 18 Democrats. Let me repeat, that's voting against these supposed pork packages you cite. Here's the link: Looks bipartisan to me.
jjm:

<< Republican majority voting in favor. >>

Er, no, actually. Try checking the votes. Both parties are equally to blame for passing the appropriations in their current form. Had the rest of the Democrats supported those 19 Republicans: 46+19=65 votes against. Perhaps the Democrats had something to gain from the bill, too?

Look, I'm not trying to say that Republicans are not guilty of including pork. Undoubtedly they are. There are probably also compromise spending for Democrats as well, which is typical. However, those votes are not strictly along party lines, as your assertions seem to say.
 

AndrewR

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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<< If you guys would stop visually inspecting your colons >>


Hey, man, ever hear of prostate cancer??? ;)
 

jjm

Golden Member
Oct 9, 1999
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AndrewR - You just can't be that dense. Well, actually you are, but that's a separate discussion.

THE FACT IS THAT IF REPUBLICANS VOTED AS A BLOCK, NONE OF THESE ADDITIONS WOULD HAVE MADE IT TO ANY OF THESE BILLS.

Where is the mystery in that? Republicans, by failing to stop the additions to the bill, let this happen. In fact, many of the spending increases were submitted by Republicans directly. They controlled the entire process after the Executive branch submitted the budget, and the spending increased $17 billion. Now explain how this is fiscally conservative? Doesn't being fiscally conservative mean voting against runaway spending too?
 

Kanly

Senior member
Oct 23, 1999
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So, I guess the Republicans don't really control Congress then?

Or, all the credit for passing a Balanced Budget has to be split between Dems and GOPers in the House?
 

AndrewR

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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DukeLeto:


<< Ah, tell me how the minority party in both houses drive the agenda. >>


Did you notice the part about Clinton? He's a Democrat, remember?


<< When was the last time you checked? 1780? >>


Ok, is there a confederacy of dunces around here??? 87 was the number of votes counted for the largest appropriations bill listed in that AP report.


<< It's great that the Cold War is over, when will you stop living in the past though? >>


Hmmm, who mentioned Reagan first? Was it me or you? I was joining you in the past, not leading you there.


<< Well, gee seemed like a pretty factual article to me. >>


An article can be fact based yet biased, that's pretty easy. A lack of bias is shown through balance, which that article lacks completely.


<< I'm surprised by your strong defense of pork though. Is that fiscally conservative? >>


I'm not defending pork. I'm saying that mere presence of spending does not indicate pork. Is that fair?


<< Clinton has a balanced budget, but that's only because of the Republicans. >>


Well, thank God, I've convinced you of something. LOL

Now, yes, Reagan gets the credit for pushing the Cold War to an end. His support of a military expansion and the Star Wars program bankrupted the Soviets in an arms race. As near as I can recall, Democrats opposed both of those. Clinton does not receive credit for the balanced budget because it was the Republicans who shut down the government when Clinton wouldn't negotiate on it. Each time it was the GOP which pushed the agenda. The instigator receives the credit, not the one who joins when it's expedient -- that being Clinton's hallmark.



<< Hmm, I think all the GOP challengers who supported them when they got elected decided term-limits were a bad idea for them once they were in power. >>


They're sitting in office right along with the Democrats who voted against term limits. :) It is hypocritical for those Congressmen who have broken their rules on term limitation. Of course, their potential replacements wouldn't abide by it either so the end result is the same -- entrenched incumbents. This would be a good use of a national referendum because there sure as hell is not going to be an Amendment passed in Congress.
 

AndrewR

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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<< AndrewR - You just can't be that dense. Well, actually you are, but that's a separate discussion. >>


Oh, fsck you already, you nitwit.

What you cannot seem to grasp, and which facts indicate (oh, the bane of liberals everywhere), is that Democrats supported those final bills just as much as Republicans. There is no en masse support from either party so you cannot level blame at the Republicans for passing these appropriations no matter how much you wish to pervert the record to say such a thing. If you had started your post with &quot;Why is Congress bulking up...&quot;, there would be no problem. Since you spouted off without looking at the votes, you look rather idiotic since they were far from party line votes. 25 Democrats voted for the bill (the most contested one), 18 voted against, 3 were not present. 33 Republicans voted for the bill, 19 voted against, 2 were not present. How exactly is that solely the fault of the Republican party?


<< THE FACT IS THAT IF REPUBLICANS VOTED AS A BLOCK >>


That's right -- I forgot the Republican party is one huge entity with separate heads splitting off and growing bodies to run for office around the country. How could I forget?

THE FACT IS THAT IF DEMOCRATS VOTED AS A BLOCK, the bill would have failed. Wow, it works both ways.
 

Kanly

Senior member
Oct 23, 1999
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Yes, there is a Confederacy of Dunces around here!

1) Clinton forced the gov't shutdown. Not the GOP. GOP couldn't pass the emergency funding bills because their own members revolted.

If Democrats are to share blame in this instance of spending, they must therefore be given credit for Star Wars and ending the Cold War. They controlled the House the whole time, and the Senate from '86 on.

With Dems controlling the House, nothing would have passed had not Democrats voted for the budget. Same thing for the Senate.

 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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jjm

What was the purpose of this thread? To let everyone know that the Reps are as guilty as the Dems of spending money? Well thank you Capt. Obvious.

Why don't you tell us your solution to the problem. From what I've gathered you're quite content to vote Democrat. How does that help your position?

Vote 3rd party, it's a beautiful thing.
 

AndrewR

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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<< So, I guess the Republicans don't really control Congress then? >>


Nope, it's a gross misnomer to say that Congress is &quot;Republican controlled&quot;. If the Republicans had the seats to cloiture a Democratic filibuster, then they would &quot;control&quot; Congress. As it is, they have a slim majority. Plus, since Republicans range from Arlen Specter to Jesse Helms, there are plenty of instances where votes cross party lines.



<< Confederacy of Dunces >>


Thanks for recognizing the reference. Good book! Interesting anecdote: Who Wants to Be a Millionaire had a question about that included that book as a possible answer. The question said which book was the first published by its author and won the Pulitzer. Well, there must have been two answers because Kennedy never published a book before that and killed himself before that was published (by his mother), and Confederacy of Dunces was not the correct answer. I found that rather strange.
 

jjm

Golden Member
Oct 9, 1999
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AndrewR - You have beautifully proved the point (though obviously you had no clue you were doing it) that it is foolish to vote Republicans into control of both the Legislative and Executive branches. By your own admission, no politician can be trusted to keep any of his or her promises. No tax cuts, no vouchers, nada.

And you have shown that even if no Democrat voted at all, the vote count proves that Republicans alone would have passed the increases in spending.

And you have shown yourself to be as good at double-speak as Clinton. On the one hand you tout the virtues of voting Republican, and on the other, when it suits your purpose, you indicate that no politician can be trusted to vote along party lines. After all, they're all independent thinkers, right?

Your reversals are beginning to overlap on each other.

And chew on this as well. At the start of the budget process on these bills, Clinton submitted $642 billion, Trent Lott &amp; Co (the Republican leadership) submitted their own budget for $625 billion. After the process was done, Congress sent bills for the President's signature totalling $655 billion.

In between, the spending bills went through committees completely controlled by Republican chair people. Since the chair sets the agenda, any of the spending additions could have been shot down by the chair. Then each bill went through a committee vote with a Republican majority. Each addition could have been voted down at the committee level, but they were not. Finally, each fully bulked up bill was sent to the floor for a full vote. As you have well shown, even if not a single Democrat had voted in favor, Republicans would have passed these bills all by themselves.

And, if your point is that each party's Congress person and Senator should lean to his or her party's dogma but still think independently, then Republicans are even less trustworthy. First, making such an assertion is absurd. But, second, if simple math probabilities are applied, then one would assume that there would be a 50/50 split in the way each party's law maker makes each vote. On simple numbers alone, Republican dogma should have prevailed, but it did not.

Therefore, I submit that if Republicans can't be trusted to resist spending, why should I care to put any more of them into office? Where will the money for my tax cut come from? Deficit spending? Now that's a good answer.

It is obvious by their own actions that Republicans can not be trusted to deliver their tax cut. And if they do, it is obvious that they intend to keep on pushing up spending too. If I were inclined to want that tax cut, I would want some assurance that the people I put in office would exercise the fiscal restraint needed to pay for it. The increases in spending prove that Republicans either have no intent of delivering real tax cuts, or that they intend to deliver them and don't care how they will pay for them. Either choice certainly appeals to me!
 

AndrewR

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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jjm: The fallacies you spout are becoming richer every day. The &quot;dangers&quot; of electing a Republican president with a Republican Congress are so tenuous as to be laughable. As I said, the Republican &quot;control&quot; of Congress is not even remotely secure. The threat of a filibuster is ever present and restrains the Republican leadership from true &quot;control&quot;. On more controversial issues such as abortion, even a strong majority is worthless. Fact is that the Democrats act just like the Republicans in not having true control over their rank and file in all cases. If there is such &quot;foolishness&quot; in having both the Executive branch and the Legislative branch in the &quot;hands&quot; of the same party, then we were surely doomed from 1992-94. What happened? The Executive and Legislative still bumped heads over many issues and then the Democrats lost control. By that history, I'd think you'd be excited at the prospect of both Congress and Executive being Republican.



<< By your own admission, no politician can be trusted to keep any of his or her promises. >>


This is an eye-opener for you? How truly naive are you? No, don't answer that -- it's obvious.



<< On the one hand you tout the virtues of voting Republican, and on the other, when it suits your purpose, you indicate that no politician can be trusted to vote along party lines. After all, they're all independent thinkers, right? >>


Since your world appears to be strictly black and white, I suppose you do not recognize the fluidity of human nature and the political process. No surprise there. It is impossible, stupid, and horribly wrong to ever discuss anything relating to politics in absolute terms -- one cannot predict with certainty how someone will react simply by their party affiliation. You might be surprised to learn this, but sometimes politicians even switch parties. Wow, isn't that something? I think it is better to vote Republican because their tendencies are more in line with what I consider good politics. To say that I like every single thing that every single Republican does is ludicrous, even for you. Furthermore, when discussing appropriations, politicians look to benefit their districts, and the people expect that. If a politician never delivered anything to the people of his or her district, do you think that politician would last long in that office? You cannot be that out of touch with reality.

I am not saying it is the best way to conduct business in Congress, but it is the way that every single person in office has acted in recent history (with some exceptions, I would imagine). If you expect otherwise, you'll be waiting a long time for Utopia.



<< But, second, if simple math probabilities are applied... >>


Ah, yes, because simple math probabilities are so apt when discussing people. Did your community college offer psychology along with logic? ROFL!



<< Where will the money for my tax cut come from? >>


And you think Democrats will spend less?? Who needs comics when I come to AnandTech for assertions like that! LOL!
 

DABANSHEE

Banned
Dec 8, 1999
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<< Clinton signed an $18.8 billion Interior Department bill that creates a new six-year, $12 billion land conservation program. >>

Sounds like a good idea to me, have you see any of those milions of eroded &amp; salinated acres, because farmers become so bloody greedy they overclear &amp; over-irrigate (which causes the watertable to rise causing salination of the topsoil).

I know this cause I use to work in the pastural industry, as far as countries like Australia &amp; the US are concerned, every $1 spent on soil consevation, mean a saving of at least $20 in the future. You may not like the govt spending your money that way, but no one else will do it.
 

jjm

Golden Member
Oct 9, 1999
1,505
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Well, AndrewR, I gave you an opportunity several times throughout this thread to directly answer the basic premise of the problem with Republicans approving more spending than even Clinton requested. Rather than answer the question directly, you attempted to drag in peripheral issues, engaged in childish name-calling and other diversionary tactics. I think any reader of this thread will come to his/her own judgment about the strength of your reasoning abilities. Enjoy your little world. You enjoy arguing for its sake, not because you have an open mind and want to look for constructive solutions.

By the way, before you take shots at a person's background, think first. I could post my advanced degrees here along with the major universities from which I achieved them with distinction, but it would serve to make you look even more petty and foolish than you already appear. And, in all likelihood, I can buy you several times over if we were to compare income levels. You just paint a big target on yourself, but I will not lower myself to your level of pettiness.

I know you will respond to this thread yet again, because you can't resist, but I'm done. I have no doubt that any reader would be able to see which participant was more lucid and less &quot;attacking&quot; in his arguments.