Stolen Viruses!? - U.S. military is worried they may be used as WMD!

[apoppin]

ABC NEWS

Lost Viruses?
Dangerous Strains Unaccounted for in Post-War Iraq

B A G H D A D, Iraq, April 17 ? Dangerous strains of cholera, black fever, HIV, polio, and hepatitis may have been lost during the post-war looting of Iraq's key disease control facility, ABCNEWS has learned. The U.S. military is worried they may be used as weapons.

In an exclusive report on ABCNEWS' Good Morning America, Brian Ross revealed that scientists at Baghdad's central public health laboratory are worried that an unknown number of viruses have been stolen.

They say looters took refrigerators full of the deadly viruses Friday, but they're not sure what's actually missing. "They are in containers, all of these things taken together, cholera, AIDS and black fever," one unidentified Iraqi woman told Ross.

Ross says U.S. Marines showed up at the facility today. U.S. sources are concerned that polio and hepatitis may have been stolen, in addition to other viruses that may not be reflected in the official records in Baghdad, Ross said.

The Iraqi scientists say they have no idea who took the material. They don't know whether it was swept up in the looting rampage or taken by someone who knew what they had.

There is great concern and anger from the director of the lab about the failure of the U.S. to prevent the looting.

"The Americans shouldn't just protect Ministry of Oil, they should protect all the general public health services," the lab's director told Ross.

The written sign outside now reads in Arabic, "Stay away, extremely dangerous. Lab is polluted with viruses," Ross said. There have been no reports of illnesses yet and the greatest danger may be to the looter who took it. In the wrong hands, however, it could be considered a potent weapon.

:Q

I guess we may have found some WMD.

 

[Alistar7]

"Ross says U.S. Marines showed up at the facility today. U.S. sources are concerned that polio and hepatitis may have been stolen, in addition to other viruses that may not be reflected in the official records in Baghdad, Ross said."

"The Iraqi scientists say they have no idea who took the material. They don't know whether it was swept up in the looting rampage or taken by someone who knew what they had."

Maybe they can at least identify the other viruses not officialy listed, what the hell are those anyway?
Nice of them to secure their stockpiles though.


When was that area secured and when did the looting take place? We are harldy responsible for the free will actions of others, especially criminals.

Nice to know there's even more out there that may well never be accounted for.

If no WMD are found will we ever know what happened to the ones Saddam admitted having?

 

[apoppin]

This could be a DISASTER - some of these deadly viruses are possibly "engineered".

Look at the problems with SARS.

We may have found WMD after all.

 

[conjur]

Well, when the looters and their families start dropping dead from Cholera and hepatitis, well, they can be charged posthumously.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: conjur
Well, when the looters and their families start dropping dead from Cholera and hepatitis, well, they can be charged posthumously.

And our troops?



And the possible spread to the rest of the world - including the US?

Think . . . for a change.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: conjur
Well, when the looters and their families start dropping dead from Cholera and hepatitis, well, they can be charged posthumously.

And our troops?



And the possible spread to the rest of the world - including the US?

Think . . . for a change.

Oh, yeah, I agree. This could be disastrous. If they stole refrigerators and have no idea what's in them, just wait until they toss those samples out with the trash or dump it on the ground.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: conjur
Well, when the looters and their families start dropping dead from Cholera and hepatitis, well, they can be charged posthumously.

And our troops?



And the possible spread to the rest of the world - including the US?

Think . . . for a change.

Oh, yeah, I agree. This could be disastrous. If they stole refrigerators and have no idea what's in them, just wait until they toss those samples out with the trash or dump it on the ground.

Thanks.

This is the most seriously disturbing news since the war ended. It has planet-wide implications for disaster.



I have no particular "love" for the looters. However, this "evil genie" of disease may have escaped its bottle. And we simply don't know what diseases that are not on the "official list" are out.

 

[Alistar7]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: conjur
Well, when the looters and their families start dropping dead from Cholera and hepatitis, well, they can be charged posthumously.

And our troops?



And the possible spread to the rest of the world - including the US?

Think . . . for a change.

Oh, yeah, I agree. This could be disastrous. If they stole refrigerators and have no idea what's in them, just wait until they toss those samples out with the trash or dump it on the ground.

Thanks.

This is the most seriously disturbing news since the war ended. It has planet-wide implications for disaster.



I have no particular "love" for the looters. However, this "evil genie" of disease may have escaped its bottle. And we simply don't know what diseases that are not on the "official list" are out.

Why are you so suddenly concerned with nasty bugs going into the wrong hands? This only highlights the very real fears the US had, the very reason they gave to start this effort.

Could ONE terrorist carry a potentially globally catastrophic disease from Iraq into the US? At least even Syria has shown proper restraint with their WMD, if they did not have such strong ties to terrorism we wouldn't even be worried about them.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Alistar7

Originally posted by: apoppin
This is the most seriously disturbing news since the war ended. It has planet-wide implications for disaster.



I have no particular "love" for the looters. However, this "evil genie" of disease may have escaped its bottle. And we simply don't know what diseases that are not on the "official list" are out.

Why are you so suddenly concerned with nasty bugs going into the wrong hands? This only highlights the very real fears the US had, the very reason they gave to start this effort.

Could ONE terrorist carry a potentially globally catastrophic disease from Iraq into the US? At least even Syria has shown proper restraint with their WMD, if they did not have such strong ties to terrorism we wouldn't even be worried about them.

Why am I "suddenly concerned"? Where'd you come up with that nonsense? I was the very first on these boards to be concened that we weren't sufficiently prepared to invade Iraq for these very reasons.

Who cares if ONE terrorist carries anything? Just wait. If 5 million people in Baghdad alone are potential carriers for deadly viruses, so are our troops.

How are we going to bring them home if they are infected? :Q

I don't think you grasp the magnitude of this potential deadly "situation" for all of humans.

 

[Alistar7]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Alistar7

Originally posted by: apoppin
This is the most seriously disturbing news since the war ended. It has planet-wide implications for disaster.



I have no particular "love" for the looters. However, this "evil genie" of disease may have escaped its bottle. And we simply don't know what diseases that are not on the "official list" are out.

Why are you so suddenly concerned with nasty bugs going into the wrong hands? This only highlights the very real fears the US had, the very reason they gave to start this effort.

Could ONE terrorist carry a potentially globally catastrophic disease from Iraq into the US? At least even Syria has shown proper restraint with their WMD, if they did not have such strong ties to terrorism we wouldn't even be worried about them.

Why am I "suddenly concerned"? Where'd you come up with that nonsense? I was the very first on these boards to be concened that we weren't sufficiently prepared to invade Iraq for these very reasons.

Who cares if ONE terrorist carries anything? Just wait. If 5 million people in Baghdad alone are potential carriers for deadly viruses, so are our troops.

How are we going to bring them home if they are infected? :Q

I don't think you grasp the magnitude of this potential deadly "situation" for all of humans.

Yes I do and have understood this from the start, reasons like THIS are why I have been so supportive of our action. Would it matter to me that it was brought back by a US soldier or intentionally placed by a terrorist, no, but the fact has always remained he had WMD unaccounted for, and had no qualms in using them before, had strong ties to terrorism, and was an enemy of the US. I always got the impression from you that you felt this fear was not legitimate or real, if I was wrong I am sorry.

The potential GLOBAL effects are the reason everyone should have had similar fears. Once released a bug is not going to respect ideological differences or geopolitical imaginery lines. I tried to make this analogy at the start of the war using the Sars virus as an example of how an attack on the US could quivkly lead to an attack on all humanity, the anti-war was not buying the logic.

You yourself are still saying we "were not ready", obviously we were ready, securing health labs is never the primary focus of a war plan, no matter how many troops we had this would have happened.

Where we even in full control of the area when this happened?

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Alistar7

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Alistar7Who cares if ONE terrorist carries anything? Just wait. If 5 million people in Baghdad alone are potential carriers for deadly viruses, so are our troops.

How are we going to bring them home if they are infected? :Q

I don't think you grasp the magnitude of this potential deadly "situation" for all of humans.

Yes I do and have understood this from the start, reasons like THIS are why I have been so supportive of our action. Would it matter to me that it was brought back by a US soldier or intentionally placed by a terrorist, no, but the fact has always remained he had WMD unaccounted for, and had no qualms in using them before, had strong ties to terrorism, and was an enemy of the US. I always got the impression from you that you felt this fear was not legitimate or real, if I was wrong I am sorry.

The potential GLOBAL effects are the reason everyone should have had similar fears. Once released a bug is not going to respect ideological differences or geopolitical imaginery lines. I tried to make this analogy at the start of the war using the Sars virus as an example of how an attack on the US could quivkly lead to an attack on all humanity, the anti-war was not buying the logic.

You yourself are still saying we "were not ready", obviously we were ready, securing health labs is never the primary focus of a war plan, no matter how many troops we had this would have happened.

Where we even in full control of the area when this happened?

We understand each other better even if we still disagree.

I have always maintained that Saddam was a threat that needed to be dealt with. However, my entire issues deal with 'legality" - that we need full UN support (that is another issue, not for this thread).

And I always worried that WMD would be unleashed during the war - that threat has always been real; I am just afraid that they are no longer in Iraq.

And don't lump me in with the "Anti-War Gang" . . . I am against this unilateral invasion of a sovereign country without a CLEAR mandate from the International Community. Saddam should have been removed by force long ago - the sanctions were bad for the people of Iraq.

I have always maintained that the ProWar Guys simply don't (want to) understand the Arab mind and how the REST of the WORLD views US actions and our apparently unreasonably blind support for Israel.

As to whether "Were we even in full control of the area when this happened?" - We SHOULD have been. And now we are back to my argument that we were not sufficiently prepared since this DID happen.

They say looters took refrigerators full of the deadly viruses Friday . . . . Ross says U.S. Marines showed up at the facility today. . . .

There is great concern and anger from the director of the lab about the failure of the U.S. to prevent the looting.

"The Americans shouldn't just protect Ministry of Oil, they should protect all the general public health services," the lab's director told Ross.

So you think we were prepared?

 

[Alistar7]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Alistar7

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Alistar7Who cares if ONE terrorist carries anything? Just wait. If 5 million people in Baghdad alone are potential carriers for deadly viruses, so are our troops.

How are we going to bring them home if they are infected? :Q

I don't think you grasp the magnitude of this potential deadly "situation" for all of humans.

Yes I do and have understood this from the start, reasons like THIS are why I have been so supportive of our action. Would it matter to me that it was brought back by a US soldier or intentionally placed by a terrorist, no, but the fact has always remained he had WMD unaccounted for, and had no qualms in using them before, had strong ties to terrorism, and was an enemy of the US. I always got the impression from you that you felt this fear was not legitimate or real, if I was wrong I am sorry.

The potential GLOBAL effects are the reason everyone should have had similar fears. Once released a bug is not going to respect ideological differences or geopolitical imaginery lines. I tried to make this analogy at the start of the war using the Sars virus as an example of how an attack on the US could quivkly lead to an attack on all humanity, the anti-war was not buying the logic.

You yourself are still saying we "were not ready", obviously we were ready, securing health labs is never the primary focus of a war plan, no matter how many troops we had this would have happened.

Where we even in full control of the area when this happened?

We understand each other better even if we still disagree.

I have always maintained that Saddam was a threat that needed to be dealt with. However, my entire issues deal with 'legality" - that we need full UN support (that is another issue, not for this thread).

And I always worried that WMD would be unleashed during the war - that threat has always been real; I am just afraid that they are no longer in Iraq.

And don't lump me in with the "Anti-War Gang" . . . I am against this unilateral invasion of a sovereign country without a CLEAR mandate from the International Community. Saddam should have been removed by force long ago - the sanctions were bad for the people of Iraq.

I have always maintained that the ProWar Guys simply don't (want to) understand the Arab mind and how the REST of the WORLD views US actions and our apparently unreasonably blind support for Israel.

As to whether "Were we even in full control of the area when this happened?" - We SHOULD have been. And now we are back to my argument that we were not sufficiently prepared since this DID happen.

They say looters took refrigerators full of the deadly viruses Friday . . . . Ross says U.S. Marines showed up at the facility today. . . .

There is great concern and anger from the director of the lab about the failure of the U.S. to prevent the looting.

"The Americans shouldn't just protect Ministry of Oil, they should protect all the general public health services," the lab's director told Ross.

So you think we were prepared?

There is no SHOULD HAVE BEEN, if we did not have military control over the area we are not responsible for protecting it either, not too mention that's also impossible in that case.

As far as the legality issue and a clear international consensus, I feel there is one. Over 0 countires support our efforts, including the majority of Iraqi citizens. The reason behind the opposition is what should be discussed, WHY was there support for Saddam? You did read the thread that tells about the MODERN arms found in Iraq? Remember also the US is the ONLY country to EVER ask to the UN for persmission to goto war. If their approval is required then no actions other than Bosnia and Afghaistan were "legal" or morally right. I find it incredibly ironic we are the only country to involve the international community in this manner, yet we are criticized becasue we don't EXCLUSIVELY rely upon their apoproval, especially when NONE of them have ever done what we have at times.

The lab directors opinion on whether we should have been there is irrelevant, his failure to ensure their safety is more at fault than our inability to control and protect EVERYTHING while still under fire.

 

[rchiu]

Originally posted by: Alistar7
"Ross says U.S. Marines showed up at the facility today. U.S. sources are concerned that polio and hepatitis may have been stolen, in addition to other viruses that may not be reflected in the official records in Baghdad, Ross said."

"The Iraqi scientists say they have no idea who took the material. They don't know whether it was swept up in the looting rampage or taken by someone who knew what they had."

Maybe they can at least identify the other viruses not officialy listed, what the hell are those anyway?
Nice of them to secure their stockpiles though.


When was that area secured and when did the looting take place? We are harldy responsible for the free will actions of others, especially criminals.

Nice to know there's even more out there that may well never be accounted for.

If no WMD are found will we ever know what happened to the ones Saddam admitted having?

You are still confused. We are dealing with viruses that we KNOW was stolen, and we should worry about that.

Your claim of WMD is still, a claim. All you can come up with is that Iraq HAD WMD, and you THINK they still have WMD.

Big difference.

 

[Alistar7]

Originally posted by: rchiu

Originally posted by: Alistar7
"Ross says U.S. Marines showed up at the facility today. U.S. sources are concerned that polio and hepatitis may have been stolen, in addition to other viruses that may not be reflected in the official records in Baghdad, Ross said."

"The Iraqi scientists say they have no idea who took the material. They don't know whether it was swept up in the looting rampage or taken by someone who knew what they had."

Maybe they can at least identify the other viruses not officialy listed, what the hell are those anyway?
Nice of them to secure their stockpiles though.


When was that area secured and when did the looting take place? We are harldy responsible for the free will actions of others, especially criminals.

Nice to know there's even more out there that may well never be accounted for.

If no WMD are found will we ever know what happened to the ones Saddam admitted having?

You are still confused. We are dealing with viruses that we KNOW was stolen, and we should worry about that.

Your claim of WMD is still, a claim. All you can come up with is that Iraq HAD WMD, and you THINK they still have WMD.

Big difference.

it is not a claim, it is fact submitted to the UN by Saddam himself, accept it already. The point is he admitted having them, if the UN couldnt find them and we cant either that doesnt mean they don't exist. His admission and 12,000 detailed report to the UN outlining the programs proves otherwise, the only thing thats left is specualtion over their LOCATION. Saddam never told anyone wehre they were either. They DO HAVE TO BE SOMEWHERE, they did not just vanish.

 

[rchiu]

Originally posted by: Alistar7

Originally posted by: rchiu

Originally posted by: Alistar7
"Ross says U.S. Marines showed up at the facility today. U.S. sources are concerned that polio and hepatitis may have been stolen, in addition to other viruses that may not be reflected in the official records in Baghdad, Ross said."

"The Iraqi scientists say they have no idea who took the material. They don't know whether it was swept up in the looting rampage or taken by someone who knew what they had."

Maybe they can at least identify the other viruses not officialy listed, what the hell are those anyway?
Nice of them to secure their stockpiles though.


When was that area secured and when did the looting take place? We are harldy responsible for the free will actions of others, especially criminals.

Nice to know there's even more out there that may well never be accounted for.

If no WMD are found will we ever know what happened to the ones Saddam admitted having?

You are still confused. We are dealing with viruses that we KNOW was stolen, and we should worry about that.

Your claim of WMD is still, a claim. All you can come up with is that Iraq HAD WMD, and you THINK they still have WMD.

Big difference.

it is not a claim, it is fact submitted to the UN by Saddam himself, accept it already. The point is he admitted having them, if the UN couldnt find them and we cant either that doesnt mean they don't exist. His admission and 12,000 detailed report to the UN outlining the programs proves otherwise, the only thing thats left is specualtion over their LOCATION. Saddam never told anyone wehre they were either. They DO HAVE TO BE SOMEWHERE, they did not just vanish.

That's funny. Since when Saddam admitted HAVING (note present tense here) WMD? If that is a known fact, why does UN even bother inspecting Iraq, and why all the big argument about if Iraq have WMD? Why are we still search for WMD since Saddam already admitted having them.

Unless you know what everyone else don't, you are really confused on if Saddam admitted HAVING WMD right now or HAD them in the past.

 

[Alistar7]

Originally posted by: rchiu

Originally posted by: Alistar7

Originally posted by: rchiu

Originally posted by: Alistar7
"Ross says U.S. Marines showed up at the facility today. U.S. sources are concerned that polio and hepatitis may have been stolen, in addition to other viruses that may not be reflected in the official records in Baghdad, Ross said."

"The Iraqi scientists say they have no idea who took the material. They don't know whether it was swept up in the looting rampage or taken by someone who knew what they had."

Maybe they can at least identify the other viruses not officialy listed, what the hell are those anyway?
Nice of them to secure their stockpiles though.


When was that area secured and when did the looting take place? We are harldy responsible for the free will actions of others, especially criminals.

Nice to know there's even more out there that may well never be accounted for.

If no WMD are found will we ever know what happened to the ones Saddam admitted having?

You are still confused. We are dealing with viruses that we KNOW was stolen, and we should worry about that.

Your claim of WMD is still, a claim. All you can come up with is that Iraq HAD WMD, and you THINK they still have WMD.

Big difference.

it is not a claim, it is fact submitted to the UN by Saddam himself, accept it already. The point is he admitted having them, if the UN couldnt find them and we cant either that doesnt mean they don't exist. His admission and 12,000 detailed report to the UN outlining the programs proves otherwise, the only thing thats left is specualtion over their LOCATION. Saddam never told anyone wehre they were either. They DO HAVE TO BE SOMEWHERE, they did not just vanish.

That's funny. Since when Saddam admitted HAVING (note present tense here) WMD? If that is a known fact, why does UN even bother inspecting Iraq, and why all the big argument about if Iraq have WMD? Why are we still search for WMD since Saddam already admitted having them.

Unless you know what everyone else don't, you are really confused on if Saddam admitted HAVING WMD right now or HAD them in the past.

No I understand perfectly, I even know the DATE the report was submitted. He did claim he did not have them anymore, but could never prove that. So there never has been any proof what he admitted having was destroyed, only it's existence was proved. Where is it?

 

[rchiu]

No I understand perfectly, I even know the DATE the report was submitted. He did claim he did not have them anymore, but could never prove that. So there never has been any proof what he admitted having was destroyed, only it's existence was proved. Where is it?

You are still confused about two point.

1. If Iraq has WMD
2. If Iraq violated 1441 by not accounting for every single weapon that violated agreement.

Those are not the same thing.

On the first point. Nobody knows if Iraq has WMD. That's why UN was doing the inspection and US is still searching for it.
On the second point, UN came up with the resolution, but UN did not come to the conclusion of Iraq violated 1441. Only you and US claimed that. And you and US does not equal to UN.

 

[apoppin]

The US IS responsible for Iraq's citizen's during the occupation. Our "intellegence" has to be QUESTIONED again.

Personally I agree with the director that it is the HEIGHT OF STUPIDITY to NOT secure a known RESEARCH FACILITY - the central public health laboratory - where dangerous biological agents are KNOWN to be stored.

If we had the proper intellegence - and acted wisely - we would have made it a PRIORITY to secure these deadly viruses.

Re:WMD -

They DO HAVE TO BE SOMEWHERE, they did not just vanish.

Sure, in the hands of Al Qaeda by now.

 

[dahunan]

I fully believe that the looters were not your typical looters per se... no no no

They were terrorists who knew what they could do with this stuff and will probably do it.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: dahunan
I fully believe that the looters were not your typical looters per se... no no no

They were terrorists who knew what they could do with this stuff and will probably do it.

It boggles my mind that other people cannot grasp this simple conclusion. Even IF it is only "accidental" looting, the results may be just as deadly.

And it really doesn't matter that it is the US' fault for failing to protect against this.
The fact is : we have a major "problem" brewing.

 

[dahunan]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: dahunan
I fully believe that the looters were not your typical looters per se... no no no

They were terrorists who knew what they could do with this stuff and will probably do it.

It boggles my mind that other people cannot grasp this simple conclusion. Even IF it is only "accidental" looting, the results may be just as deadly.

And it really doesn't matter that it is the US' fault for failing to protect against this.
The fact is : we have a major "problem" brewing.

The reason all of this happened is because the US has refused to sign (for many years) the "Convention for the Protection of Cultural Property in the Event of Armed Conflict"
http://www.icomos.org/hague/hague.convention.html


Here is the list of Countries who have signed on

 

[dahunan]

double post

 

[Alistar7]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: dahunan
I fully believe that the looters were not your typical looters per se... no no no

They were terrorists who knew what they could do with this stuff and will probably do it.

It boggles my mind that other people cannot grasp this simple conclusion. Even IF it is only "accidental" looting, the results may be just as deadly.

And it really doesn't matter that it is the US' fault for failing to protect against this.
The fact is : we have a major "problem" brewing.

First you say we moved to quickly out of fear of this exact thing happening, then complain we didn't react fast enough. I honestly doubt ANY military planner thought Baghdad itself would be as much of a cakewalk. We are STILL not in full control over all areas, we have primarily let Saddam City be self protected. Was this an area the US had full control over at the time of the looting? If they did have full control and they knew what was in there, then it was negligent on their part to do nothing but watch it be looted, I would agree wholeheartedly.

 

[Alistar7]

Originally posted by: rchiu

No I understand perfectly, I even know the DATE the report was submitted. He did claim he did not have them anymore, but could never prove that. So there never has been any proof what he admitted having was destroyed, only it's existence was proved. Where is it?

You are still confused about two point.

1. If Iraq has WMD
2. If Iraq violated 1441 by not accounting for every single weapon that violated agreement.

Those are not the same thing.

On the first point. Nobody knows if Iraq has WMD. That's why UN was doing the inspection and US is still searching for it.
On the second point, UN came up with the resolution, but UN did not come to the conclusion of Iraq violated 1441. Only you and US claimed that. And you and US does not equal to UN.

What was the nature of Saddam's noncompliance? The UN was not supposed to SEARCH for anything, they were to be led to watch the destruction. The report was submitted, since then there has been no confirmation they were destroyed, all the UN has ever been told is they don't have them anymore. Could be true, could have given them all away already, but their existence was admitted by Iraq. For those that could never be accounted for, what happened to them?

 

[Krakn3Dfx]

But the oil facilities are fine! Remember, the oil facilities are OKAY!

Disease control facilities that hold catastrophic terror in tiny vials of engineered virus strains? Sorry, we must have took a wrong turn at Albequerque.