Stock Market at it's highest level in over 6 years

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imported_Tango

Golden Member
Mar 8, 2005
1,623
0
0
Originally posted by: ntdz
http://money.cnn.com/2006/04/20/markets/markets_newyork/index.htm

More bad news about the economy.


It's not the stock markets. It's the Dow index. Nasdaq and S&P 500 are still lagging behind their year 2000 spikes.

Don't get me wrong, it's good to see the Dow performing good... but I wouldn't call matching 6 years old levels a great performance. Historically it's very unlikely that stock prices don't appreciate over a 10 year period, even if the Nasdaq is unlikely to follow this trend. The internet bubble will take a lot of time to recover from, and some prices will probably never be observed again before a merger and following delisting.

Also, histotically, the US had 6-years business cicles. We had a very unusual 10 year cicle during the '90s and now many people are betting this one will last longer than usual. But if you believe in the value of historical trends in stock index forecasting we should quite soon face a recession. It is not a political thing, it's just the way the markets work. Nothing goes up forever, and something really appreciated too much during the late 90s. I know quite a lot of people still holding oracle shares bought at 46$. They are very unlikely to see those price any time soon.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: Stunt
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: conjur
Google P/E: 82.65



Nah...that's not overpriced at all.
Based on what? Have you looked at Berkshire Hathaway P/E ratio recently?
15? :confused:

hmm now I am the fool. I could have sworn the last time I saw the PE ratio of that company it was in the thousands.

 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: Stunt
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: conjur
Google P/E: 82.65



Nah...that's not overpriced at all.
Based on what? Have you looked at Berkshire Hathaway P/E ratio recently?
15? :confused:

hmm now I am the fool. I could have sworn the last time I saw the PE ratio of that company it was in the thousands.

No, that's the price of the stock ($86,400 PER SHARE)! :shocked:

hehe! :p

 

techs

Lifer
Sep 26, 2000
28,559
4
0
ONLY A MORON WOULD POST THIS THREAD.
THINK.
TRYING TO MAKE A POINT BY SAYING THE STOCK MARKET IS ONLY APPROACHING WHAT IT WAS 6 YEARS AGO?
YOU ARE SAYING WE HAVE JUST HAD 6 YEARS OF TERRIBLE PERFORMANCE!
WE ARE ONLY BACK TO WHERE IT WAS 6 YEARS AGO!
TERRIBLE, AWFUL, CALAMATOUS, DISGRACEFUL, ETC ETC DESCRIBE THAT PERFORMANCE.
MAYBE IN A COUPLE OF MORE YEARS, SAY 2008, YOU WILL BRAG THAT THE STOCK MARKET IS ALMOST BACK TO ITS ALL TIME HIGH OF 1998.

THIS THREAD IS JUST TOO STUPID.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: techs
ONLY A MORON WOULD POST THIS THREAD.
THINK.
TRYING TO MAKE A POINT BY SAYING THE STOCK MARKET IS ONLY APPROACHING WHAT IT WAS 6 YEARS AGO?
YOU ARE SAYING WE HAVE JUST HAD 6 YEARS OF TERRIBLE PERFORMANCE!
WE ARE ONLY BACK TO WHERE IT WAS 6 YEARS AGO!
TERRIBLE, AWFUL, CALAMATOUS, DISGRACEFUL, ETC ETC DESCRIBE THAT PERFORMANCE.
MAYBE IN A COUPLE OF MORE YEARS, SAY 2008, YOU WILL BRAG THAT THE STOCK MARKET IS ALMOST BACK TO ITS ALL TIME HIGH OF 1998.

THIS THREAD IS JUST TOO STUPID.

The irony is thick today.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: Stunt
Originally posted by: conjur
Google P/E: 82.65



Nah...that's not overpriced at all.
It's a growth company.
And you are one to talk about P/E's...you are all over Bush for the tech decline during Clinton's term!!

Starbucks is a similar growth story.
WTF? Dude, put down the crackpipe.
 

Stunt

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2002
9,717
2
0
Originally posted by: techs
ONLY A MORON WOULD POST THIS THREAD.
THINK.
TRYING TO MAKE A POINT BY SAYING THE STOCK MARKET IS ONLY APPROACHING WHAT IT WAS 6 YEARS AGO?
YOU ARE SAYING WE HAVE JUST HAD 6 YEARS OF TERRIBLE PERFORMANCE!
WE ARE ONLY BACK TO WHERE IT WAS 6 YEARS AGO!
TERRIBLE, AWFUL, CALAMATOUS, DISGRACEFUL, ETC ETC DESCRIBE THAT PERFORMANCE.
MAYBE IN A COUPLE OF MORE YEARS, SAY 2008, YOU WILL BRAG THAT THE STOCK MARKET IS ALMOST BACK TO ITS ALL TIME HIGH OF 1998.

THIS THREAD IS JUST TOO STUPID.
The economy is cyclical, and to think the valuations of the tech boom were justified...you are nuts. This is where the market should be assuming steady, solid growth.
 

Stunt

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2002
9,717
2
0
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: Stunt
Originally posted by: conjur
Google P/E: 82.65



Nah...that's not overpriced at all.
It's a growth company.
And you are one to talk about P/E's...you are all over Bush for the tech decline during Clinton's term!!

Starbucks is a similar growth story.
WTF? Dude, put down the crackpipe.
The tech bubble saw P/E's 10-100times the levels of google's.

Again, growth companies tend to have high P/E's as people invest before true earnings and profits arrive. People in google expect big things from them, and if they miss any earnings report, their price will plummet.

Walmart traded at 41 P/E during its most aggressive growth.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: Stunt
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: OrganizedChaos
inflation?

<--clueless stock newb
Real inflation running at least 8%
Article=Sept 2004 :p

Inflation similar to end of Clinton's term



Traditional inflation rates can be estimated by adding 2.7% to the CPI-U annual growth rate
Which would be at least 6.1% right now.

Education and healthcare are rising at double-digit increases per year. Gas costs have gone up 100% in 5 years. Housing has increased dramatically (although it's starting to burst). Food has gone up.

And you honestly think real inflation is ~3%?
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: Stunt
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: Stunt
Originally posted by: conjur
Google P/E: 82.65



Nah...that's not overpriced at all.
It's a growth company.
And you are one to talk about P/E's...you are all over Bush for the tech decline during Clinton's term!!

Starbucks is a similar growth story.
WTF? Dude, put down the crackpipe.
The tech bubble saw P/E's 10-100times the levels of google's.

Again, growth companies tend to have high P/E's as people invest before true earnings and profits arrive. People in google expect big things from them, and if they miss any earnings report, their price will plummet.

Walmart traded at 41 P/E during its most aggressive growth.
I'm referring to the bolded part above. You're full of sh*t...just like Genx87. But, go ahead and keep making false accusations.
 

techs

Lifer
Sep 26, 2000
28,559
4
0
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: techs
ONLY A MORON WOULD POST THIS THREAD.
THINK.
TRYING TO MAKE A POINT BY SAYING THE STOCK MARKET IS ONLY APPROACHING WHAT IT WAS 6 YEARS AGO?
YOU ARE SAYING WE HAVE JUST HAD 6 YEARS OF TERRIBLE PERFORMANCE!
WE ARE ONLY BACK TO WHERE IT WAS 6 YEARS AGO!
TERRIBLE, AWFUL, CALAMATOUS, DISGRACEFUL, ETC ETC DESCRIBE THAT PERFORMANCE.
MAYBE IN A COUPLE OF MORE YEARS, SAY 2008, YOU WILL BRAG THAT THE STOCK MARKET IS ALMOST BACK TO ITS ALL TIME HIGH OF 1998.

THIS THREAD IS JUST TOO STUPID.

The irony is thick today.

I have to agree. Imagine trying to show the economy is doing well under Bush when it has finally, after 6 years, just broken even. The worst performance of any President, well, EVER (even Hoover was gone shortly after the market crashed so Bushes performance is far worse than Hoovers).
A better title for this thread:

After 6 years of no growth we are finally back to where we started from under Bush.
Despite outrageous, non sustainable deficits.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
And this stock market rise is all artificial. The underlying fundamentals just aren't there.

The correction is going to hurt.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: techs
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: techs
ONLY A MORON WOULD POST THIS THREAD.
THINK.
TRYING TO MAKE A POINT BY SAYING THE STOCK MARKET IS ONLY APPROACHING WHAT IT WAS 6 YEARS AGO?
YOU ARE SAYING WE HAVE JUST HAD 6 YEARS OF TERRIBLE PERFORMANCE!
WE ARE ONLY BACK TO WHERE IT WAS 6 YEARS AGO!
TERRIBLE, AWFUL, CALAMATOUS, DISGRACEFUL, ETC ETC DESCRIBE THAT PERFORMANCE.
MAYBE IN A COUPLE OF MORE YEARS, SAY 2008, YOU WILL BRAG THAT THE STOCK MARKET IS ALMOST BACK TO ITS ALL TIME HIGH OF 1998.

THIS THREAD IS JUST TOO STUPID.

The irony is thick today.

I have to agree. Imagine trying to show the economy is doing well under Bush when it has finally, after 6 years, just broken even. The worst performance of any President, well, EVER (even Hoover was gone shortly after the market crashed so Bushes performance is far worse than Hoovers).
A better title for this thread:

After 6 years of no growth we are finally back to where we started from under Bush.
Despite outrageous, non sustainable deficits.

Stock market != economy.


 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: conjur
And this stock market rise is all artificial. The underlying fundamentals just aren't there.

The correction is going to hurt.

Why don't you do us a favor and in all of your wisdom tell us when we can expect this correction, and how bad will it hurt?
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
Originally posted by: conjur
And this stock market rise is all artificial. The underlying fundamentals just aren't there.

The correction is going to hurt.

I tend to disagree with you there. The profits of these companies (regardless of how they are getting them and from where they are getting their "cheap" labor) have had phenominal growth the last few years. 21% on average last year alone. At some point, fundamentals (cash flow, profits, P/E ratios, etc.) simply take over and drive the market past inflation and other economic factors. Profits alone are driving the market IMO. Not to mention new flowing money that once was reserved for real estate.

CNBC estimates 1 trillion dollars sitting on the sideline nervously waiting to enter the market. Maybe some of that money is now flowing.
 

Stunt

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2002
9,717
2
0
Originally posted by: conjur
And this stock market rise is all artificial. The underlying fundamentals just aren't there.

The correction is going to hurt.
Whoa!
I thought it wasn't rising?!
More companies are losing than gaining?!
Rising index only accounts for 30 companies?!
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
Topic Title: Stock Market at it's highest level in over 6 years

However it's not the highest in over six years if you adjust for inflation. Sorry, but if you're going to use that line of argument in oil/gas price threads you have to be consistent and use it here also ;)

BTW, I work in the securities industry so the markets going up is a good thing for me professionally, however personally I'd like the markets to stay down so I can accumulate more shares at a better price while I'm in the asset-building stage of my life. Good for anyone who's long the DJIA average.
 

techs

Lifer
Sep 26, 2000
28,559
4
0
Originally posted by: conjur
And this stock market rise is all artificial. The underlying fundamentals just aren't there.

The correction is going to hurt.

Actually I think its a tossup between latent demand for goods and services that companies have put off waiting for better times being purchased now and the rise in interest rates causing people to invest in the market based on the markets past history during infationary times.
Either way the unsustainable deficits, structural long term problems with the government budget, loss of real income and the ripple affect of high energy prices will make not just a correction but a major depreciation of stocks inevitable within 5 years.
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
Originally posted by: glenn1
Topic Title: Stock Market at it's highest level in over 6 years

However it's not the highest in over six years if you adjust for inflation. Sorry, but if you're going to use that line of argument in oil/gas price threads you have to be consistent and use it here also ;)

BTW, I work in the securities industry so the markets going up is a good thing for me professionally, however personally I'd like the markets to stay down so I can accumulate more shares at a better price while I'm in the asset-building stage of my life. Good for anyone who's long the DJIA average.

(c) 2006 - dullard Inc. :D

(j/k) but you do sound like dullard on this one. I tend to agree for the most part. Emotionally, it's nice to see the value rise of your accounts, but in reality, it would better to accumulate much more shares and then have it accumulate. I say just keep chugging along and take the ups with the downs, but consistently and constantly and it will (should!) work out just fine over the long haul (crosses fingers).

By the way and sort of OT: I have found that many industrial supply businesses are running very low on stock and have ramped up production of these items recently. We are having difficulty getting many components in a timely manner from valves, sensors, processor items (industrial), etc. This suggests one of two things: Suppliers have cut their inventory and production too much or: Business is expanding at a pace too quick to let the suppliers catch up. I tend to think it's the expansion as everyone in building machines are just booming right now (including inside my own company). It was estimated by several economists that business capital spending would drive the economy more than consumer spending this year as they put those profits to work. I might just tend to agree that is happening. Time will again tell.
 

techs

Lifer
Sep 26, 2000
28,559
4
0
Originally posted by: glenn1
Topic Title: Stock Market at it's highest level in over 6 years

However it's not the highest in over six years if you adjust for inflation. Sorry, but if you're going to use that line of argument in oil/gas price threads you have to be consistent and use it here also ;)

BTW, I work in the securities industry so the markets going up is a good thing for me professionally, however personally I'd like the markets to stay down so I can accumulate more shares at a better price while I'm in the asset-building stage of my life. Good for anyone who's long the DJIA average.
And that may not be a good bet. There is no precedent for what is happening in the world now with outsourcing and lowered labor costs. It may be (in fact quite probable) that the US market will never rise long term like it has in the past. And the places where business is expanding like China run the risk of the markets manipulation by their governments.

 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: Engineer
Originally posted by: conjur
And this stock market rise is all artificial. The underlying fundamentals just aren't there.

The correction is going to hurt.
I tend to disagree with you there. The profits of these companies (regardless of how they are getting them and from where they are getting their "cheap" labor) have had phenominal growth the last few years. 21% on average last year alone. At some point, fundamentals (cash flow, profits, P/E ratios, etc.) simply take over and drive the market past inflation and other economic factors. Profits alone are driving the market IMO. Not to mention new flowing money that once was reserved for real estate.

CNBC estimates 1 trillion dollars sitting on the sideline nervously waiting to enter the market. Maybe some of that money is now flowing.
CNBC is filled with shills.

Here's some analysis to take to heart:

http://www.321gold.com/editorials/shepherd/shepherd042006.html
At Trendinvestor over the last 2 years we have written extensively about the smoke and mirror world of this Bear Market. Because we are living in a world of paper money whose credibility is extremely dubious being backed by nothing more than the various promises of bankers and politicians? The Bear market originally in Stocks, now real Estate and shortly living standards manifests itself primarily as inflation whose opposite but equivalent effect is purchasing power losses.

The simple fact and dirty truth that they wish kept hidden is that Politicians have made insane promises over the years to the Baby Boomers this is the real cause of the major problem now faced. They have been trying to inflate this massive problem away, the side effects are huge and unsustainable bubbles in the Stock market, Real Estate market, Bond Market and eventually commodities. Make no mistake; The President of the United States of America has 3 very simple choices.

1. Pay the money at present purchasing power value and bankrupt the country.

2. Tell the Baby Boomers the truth and renege on the promises made by various administrations over the years. Money does not exist at present purchasing power value to pay the promised Pensions and Medicare of the retiring Baby Boomers. There is no argument about this it is a simple matter of basic mathematical fact.

3. Keep the insane promises that have been made, but and this is a very BIG BUT the money paid will have radically decreased purchasing power, The Baby Boomers will get there $300 a week as promised, problem is that it will cost $300 for a Starbucks Coffee.

It is now very obvious that they are going for Option 3 above, the easy way out, the Politicians way out!. If you believe that they are going for Option 3, then by definition it is not possible to be Bearish about the Stock market. Because the blatant devaluation necessary to keep the insane promises already made to the baby Boomers will very quickly make valuations cheap, and place a floor under any sustained decline. Go back 2 years and the GAAP PE ratio on the S&P 500 was close to 40 now today it is 18.85 this is the only PE ratio that matters, the Pro Forma numbers are simply fantasy and are totally irrelevant. In this short time period the market has moved from suicidal overvaluation to simply historically expensive. The major part of the increased S&P 500 earnings has been nothing more than inflation and accounting gimmicks; real sustainable growth has only played a minor part. Very soon the Stock market will have historical PE ratios that will make it a good long term buy, not quite yet, but at the rate of Dollar destruction we are witnessing at present this time will be far closer than most people expect!

If you believe that they are going for Option 3 above then you must also be a raging commodities bull, this is because commodities are priced in Dollars. If the unit of measure is constantly devalued more units of the devalued currency are demanded by the market for real tangible physical commodities. The supply of nearly all commodities is somewhat inelastic. The supply of printed and electronic Dollars is unlimited and virtually instantaneous.

It is fashionable for the last 10 years or so for the media to talk about the great NASDAQ bull or the Housing Boom or even Peak Oil apparently showing itself by $70+ Crude. The real cause of these booms is the Federal Reserve Bank. Too much cheap money chasing too few stocks, houses and now Oil.

They asked J P Morgan in 1913 at a Senate Select Committee Hearing what is Gold. He replied that "Gold is money, and nothing else is." In real money terms in true GOLD STANDARD terms we have at present a severe Bear market in Stocks just look at the graph above and Real Estate and a weak Bull market in Oil. The greatest element of the recent Bull market in Oil has not been supply and demand the popular notion that has only played a limited part this is the smokescreen, this is the spin. Far more important has been the blatant devaluation of the measuring unit of Oil the FEDERAL RESERVE NOTE whose value is determined at will, with exclusive monopoly powers by the FEDERAL RESERVE BANK. The sad truth is that the American economy has morphed into an inflation manufacturing machine, which is then spun as "growth" and "productivity". The eventual price to pay for this great lie is a severe and enduring bear market in living standards. Keynesianism is simply the long term destruction of the value of money, which is why Gold the "Barbarous Relic" is so hated, it simply exposes the great lie which is Keynesianism.

We at Trendinvestor have written many articles concerning devaluation and the market linkages and would state that we were probably the first serious analysts to work out the Federal Reserve Banks devaluation game and its effects on the various markets! Please review all our previous articles for yourselves.


And even ol' Ben was saying how dangerous the continued trade and fiscal deficits are.