Stinky hot water woes

[SparkyJJO]

I bought a house last month. The well water is hard, and has iron and sulfur in it. There is an old Culligan softener in the basement that is probably around 10+ years old.

I installed a 20" big blue filter housing with a KDF85 cartridge, which pretty much eliminated the iron and sulfur problem on the cold water. I can actually drink it straight from the tap and the toilet bowl doesn't turn orange after a couple days, so that's great.

I drained the 40 gal hot water tank and refilled, so my hot water no longer stank either. Everything was hunky dunky for nearly 2 weeks.

Recently my hot water has started to stink yet again, although it doesn't stink quite the same as it used to. It isn't quite as strong (yet?) but the odor is also a little different. I'm single so I don't cycle the water through the tank that quickly. It is an electric tank, around 3-4 years old.

Recommendations I have been given:
1) pull and cut off the anode rod. But that would cause the tank to corrode faster?
2) soak the tank in bleach to kill off anything in the tank, then flush it out. May or may not be a permanent fix.
3) replace the tank. I don't really want to do this as what's to say that the problem won't come back since I don't know the actual cause?
4) ????

Anyone else run into this, and if so what was your fix?

Side note - I don't think the old softener is doing its job since I just put a new kitchen sink in this week and the amount of water spots is ridiculous. Some are almost crusty. I'm going to get the water before/after the softener checked.

 

[boomerang]

1) pull and cut off the anode rod. But that would cause the tank to corrode faster?

That's what has to be done here when the WH is replaced. It stinks to high heaven otherwise. I'm on my third HW heater (one was replaced for a conversion from Propane to NG) and every time within a few day to a week I remember that and I have it cut off. If your softener is doing its job, in theory the HW heater should not corrode internally faster. The softener will be removing the nasties that can accelerate the demise of a HW heater. But in your situation, the problem just surfaced. So I doubt it's the anode rod.

So now, I'm zeroing in on the Softener. You should make sure it's still fully operational, which would entail making sure it's drawing brine from the brine tank and that it is actually going through its cycles. But, the resin inside of them which does the work can get fouled. There are cleaners out there that will assist in getting rid of the iron buildup. Search for water softener resin cleaner. It's inexpensive and worth a try instead of replacing a softener. You can replace just the resin, but it's a messy, nasty job. The point I'm trying to make in this post I've edited a score of times is that you should make sure the softener is cycling when you have it set to cycle, that it is going through its cycles and that it is drawing brine when it should. If all that is happening, the resin bed could be fouled. You can attempt to clean it. If that is not successful, then it comes down to repairing or replacing the softener. At ten years of age, if parts are still available, it might make sense to repair it. The softener installation and repair businesses are highly populated by sharks that are out for blood IMO. Water softeners are magic devices that few people understand and it is very easy for these guys to really soak you.

The other option is that your water has changed. It's all rather dynamic down under the ground. It's not necessarily a pocket of water you're drawing from it can be a virtual river underground.

We have a spigot for unsoftened water at the kitchen sink. The difference in the odor is tremendous between the softened and unsoftened. Barely any odor from the softened. So, the softener is removing a lot of the odor at our house. Our unsoftened water has a very distinct metallic odor with delicate overtones of sulfer. 🙂 I'm goofing around there, but that is what it smells like.

When I replaced the original softener I got a test kit that tested for virtually everything and found that there is no bacteria, nitrates and whatever else I can't remember. Those test results for hardness, ph and iron levels dictated what softener I got and what went inside the tanks. I got mine online from www.ohiopurewater.com

All this stuff has a big interest for me but I am far from an expert. I can tell you though that there is no way I would be replacing the HW heater for this issue. That is just bad advice. You bleach your well, not your HW heater. It is typically only done with a new well or when one has components replaced. Drop pipe, pump, etc.

 

[SparkyJJO]

Well, the stink isn't really a new problem I don't think - it was just masked by the original strong sulfur direct from the well.

I question the softener's functionality just because of age and how I have those bad water spots show up on a brand new sink after the first time I used it. For what it is worth the softener does cycle, but I'll have check whether it is actually getting brine or not. I can replace it myself no big deal if the thing is bad, I've installed a softener for a friend before. While plumbing isn't really my specialty I know enough to be dangerous 😛

On pulling the anode rod I read that if I ground strap the hot/cold pipes together and with the electrical ground it should help reduce the need of the rod in the first place. Come to think of it I don't believe my tank's pipes are actually wired together like I usually see in houses.

 

[boomerang]

Well, the stink isn't really a new problem I don't think - it was just masked by the original strong sulfur direct from the well.

I question the softener's functionality just because of age and how I have those bad water spots show up on a brand new sink after the first time I used it. For what it is worth the softener does cycle, but I'll have check whether it is actually getting brine or not. I can replace it myself no big deal if the thing is bad, I've installed a softener for a friend before. While plumbing isn't really my specialty I know enough to be dangerous 😛

On pulling the anode rod I read that if I ground strap the hot/cold pipes together and with the electrical ground it should help reduce the need of the rod in the first place. Come to think of it I don't believe my tank's pipes are actually wired together like I usually see in houses.

I got a bit overly complex in the earlier post but are you having to add salt to the softener? Are you adding it at basically the same rate you have in the past? Another thing to think about is are you using more water than you typically have in the past? My softener is a twin tank model that regenerates based on water usage. A lot of softeners regenerate on a schedule. They have a timer that must be reset after a power failure. If you are using more water, it may not be softened to the degree needed. It regenerates on a schedule but more water is being passed through it during that time frame. You might just need to have it regenerate more frequently.

Anyway, I can go on and with this stuff because it kind of gets me revved up. But if you do decide you need to replace the softener I highly recommend the folks I linked to earlier. They will custom tailor a system to meet your specific needs and will preset all the settings on it. It is delivered to you and you do the assembly and then plumb it in. I got a twin tank system with a Fleck valve tailored to my water conditions and IIRC, delivered it was like $800. It's been probably eight years so I'm sure prices have changed. They are not the only people doing this online so you can shop around a bit if you desire.

Their test kits though are grossly overpriced. I'm thinking they can't get a break on them enough to mark them down. I buy them at Home Depot or Lowe's and they are about half the price. It's the first step to replacing a softener. You have to know the particulars of your water in order to size and set up the system properly. If you call someone out to do the job for you, he knows the water in the area and doesn't need to test it. You do.

Oh, and putting that filter in is probably one of the best things you could have done. I think my original softener would have lasted far longer if I'd had a filter like that ahead of it. I installed one prior to putting in the new softener and when I change the filter in it I can see it's doing a good job. The guys at ohiopurewater recommended it but I had made my mind up to do it before I even called them.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/PurTest-Home-Water-Analysis-Kit-777/202711663

Edit: I'm a skimmer, what can I say? I see you just bought the house so you don't really have any idea on salt usage. Sorry for not picking up on that earlier.

 

[boomerang]

I don't know if you've had a softener before or not but one way to tell if it is working (the water spots are a sign too, for sure) is to simply wash your hands with some soap. If you have the feeling that you can't get the soap off, in other words your hands are very slippery, the softener is working. Obviously you'd get the same impression in the shower but over a larger area. 🙂

The problem with softeners is that their efficiency can slowly degrade over time and one day you suddenly realize that there is something wrong. Human nature makes us think that it must be something other than the softener because it was working fine before. Yeah, four years ago until it finally got so bad you noticed it.

 

[Greenman]

Is there a cheap easy way to test the well water? I think I'd start there if it can be done. That should tell you what sort of filter system you need. As for the water heater, could it just be a layer of crap on the bottom of the tank? I'd try just flushing it out first, there should be a valve for doing that.
That pretty much plumbs the depths of my stinky water knowledge. No pun intended.

 

[SparkyJJO]

I did a total drain of the hot water tank at the time I installed the filter. Got some crap off the bottom but there must be something else going on.

I'll be messing with both the softener and the anode rod in the tank and see what I can come up with. To answer the question about the "slippery" feel of water, no, I can't say it does.

If the softener is indeed shot (wouldn't surprise me) is there anything particularly wrong with the softeners readily available at Home Depot/Lowes/etc?

The guy in charge of the plumbing department at Home Depot (nice older guy) said I could bring some samples of water in and he's test them for me for free. He said he does that all the time for people looking at softeners and filters so they know what they do or do not need and what settings to use.

 

[boomerang]

If the softener is indeed shot (wouldn't surprise me) is there anything particularly wrong with the softeners readily available at Home Depot/Lowes/etc?

More than likely not. The valve at the top of the tank is important as that essentially is the water softener. The perspective is, can you get parts for it down the road? I could have rebuilt the valve on my original but there were no parts available. But in retrospect I'm glad I couldn't. I now have a twin tank softener that regenerates based on water usage. When one tank is regenerating, the other tank is doing the softening. I don't have a timer to reset (we have a ton of power outages here) and my salt usage is greatly decreased. There are two of us and I use one 80 bag a month.

You should buy it wherever you feel most comfortable and at a price point that works for you.

I'd be running that current softener through some manual cycles to see if you can resurrect it first. There should be a means to get it started on its cycle and then it will take over from there. Maybe run it every day next week before you leave for work or something. If you have a single tank softener, when it is regenerating unsoftened water is flowing through the pipes so the ideal situation is for no water to be used when it is regenerating. And remember that it will take days or maybe with just you living there a week or more to replace the water in the HW heater with softened water. There will be a lot of mixing going on until all the unsoftened water is displaced. Might as well make sure the existing softener is kaput before getting a replacement.

Another thought. I'm uncertain if you've had a softener before but you always want to keep the salt level up near the top of the brine tank. If you can see water, it's way past the time for you to be adding salt.

 

[boomerang]

On that anode rod. They can be installed from the top or the side but mine have always been threaded in from the top. I have the plumber do it in part because he forgot do it when he installed the replacement HW heater but there is another reason.

That sucker is in there TIGHT!. He shows up with a pipe wrench three times longer than anything I have and a helper. The helper tries to keep the tank from turning (and I had to help the helper with that one time) and he about busts a nut getting it loose. The anode rod is connected to that fitting and he simply hacksaws off the rod and replaces the fitting into the top of the tank.

The plumber is a family friend who charges me so little to replace a HW heater that I let him do the work. I drain the existing tank, disconnect it, he shows up and I help him carry the old one out and the new one in and he connects up the new HW heater and he's out the door. Usually in 20 minutes. For the do it yourselfers, of which I am a member, that is why I have the plumber do it.

 

[SparkyJJO]

I checked the salt level again and made sure there was no "salt bridge" or anything. Nope, salt is where it should be. That salt tank is probably around 2/3 full right now.

No kidding that rod is tight. I pulled out my cordless impact to bust it free since even with a breaker bar all I was doing was almost spinning the whole tank.

But speaking of that rod... I don't think it is supposed to look like this 😱

 

[boomerang]

They attract all the nasties. They are sometimes referred to as a sacrificial anode rod. The rod is meant to attract the bad stuff and break down instead of the lining of the tank. Mine have never been in more than a week and they all came out slimy and very stinky.

It will be interesting to see how that affects your odor problem. Once again, it will take some time to work all that water out of the HW heater.

 

[SparkyJJO]

I just thought that the rod was supposed to be thicker than a coat hanger wire.

 

[boomerang]

I just thought that the rod was supposed to be thicker than a coat hanger wire.

Oh, those are both pictures of the rod? Duh! I was wondering what that thing was leaned up against the brine tank. I never clicked on the pic to enlarge that one so that I could see that it was the threaded fitting at the top there. A blond moment for me this AM.

No, what you see is that it has been doing its job. It's sacrificial. It is meant to more or less dissolve over time being the weakest link. I'm amazed you got it out of there without breaking it.

 

[SparkyJJO]

It was actually pretty tough, I used a hack saw to cut it off. Seems like it was a steel core with the anode aluminum/magnesium around it perhaps.

We'll see what the hot water is like without that rod after a while. I did do a full load of laundry after pulling it so that should at least have helped cycle the water a bit.

I haven't messed with the softener yet.

Thanks for the input and help so far.

 

[boomerang]

It was actually pretty tough, I used a hack saw to cut it off. Seems like it was a steel core with the anode aluminum/magnesium around it perhaps.

Ah, so that's why it appears to be rusty in some places. All the "sacrificial" component is long gone. Interesting.

 

[Zorba]

If your softener is doing its job, in theory the HW heater should not corrode internally faster. The softener will be removing the nasties that can accelerate the demise of a HW heater. But in your situation, the problem just surfaced. So I doubt it's the anode rod.

FYI: This isn't true, soft water is more corrosive than hard water. A very simplified way of thinking about it is that water is a solvent and thus likes having crap in it. If you remove the crap, it tries to find new crap (i.e. metal from your piping). http://water.me.vccs.edu/concepts/corrosioncauses.html

Considering the Anode rod is there to prevent galvanic corrosion, it may not matter, but I am not sure.

Something else to think about, water releases dissolved gasses as it is heated. So it is possible your water has dissolved gas that stinks (like Hydrogen Sulfide) and it being released from water when it is heated and the pressure is removed. One way to test this would be to make a pot of cold water, then heat it on the stove. If it starts stinking, it is probably a dissolved gas.

Edit: Found this too: https://www.plumbingsupply.com/anoderods.html

When sodium is added to the water (such as when a water softener is used), anode rods can corrode more quickly. Water softeners can help reduce scale build-up and sediment, but anodes can corrode in as little as six months if the water is over-softened.

Unpleasant taste or odor coming from your hot water outlets can be caused by natural occurring iron bacteria in the water. This condition is usually more common in private or municipal well systems. According to the Minnesota Department of Health (Iron Bacteria in Well Water) iron bacteria are not known to cause disease, but can cause unpleasant odor, stains and tastes in the water. Iron bacteria does not produce hydrogen sulfide, the "rotten egg" smell, but can cultivate an environment where sulfur bacteria can grow and produce hydrogen sulfide (the rotten egg smell). Certain water conditions will cause a reaction with magnesium or aluminum anode rods to produce a "rotten egg" smell. By replacing the magnesium or aluminum anode rod with a combination aluminum/zinc/tin anode rod you may help decrease this smell, but it may not eliminate it completely.

 

[SparkyJJO]

My water had sulfur in it, yes. I put a filter in that stopped it. If I put a pot of water on the stove and heat it, it does not stink.

Interesting update by the way - since I pulled that rod and cut off what was left of it, the smell has been drastically dropping off. Yes I know I now do not have the rod in there, but it was pretty well shot by this point anyway.

The one thing that really concerns me about softened water is just how much sodium is really in the water at the tap? It doesn't taste salty or anything but I don't want to "over salt" my diet so to speak via drinking water.

 

[boomerang]

http://home.howstuffworks.com/question99.htm

http://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/earth/geophysics/h2o.htm

Water softeners operate on a simple principle: Calcium and magnesium ions in the water switch places with more desirable ions, usually sodium. The exchange eliminates both of the problems of hard water because sodium doesn't precipitate out in pipes or react badly with soap. The amount of sodium this process adds to your water is quite small -- less than 12.5 milligrams per 8-ounce (237-milliliter) glass, well below the standard set by the Food and Drug Administration for "very low sodium" [sources: Shep, U.S. Food and Drug Administration]. If you have health concerns, discuss them with your doctor, or consider either using a different kind of softener or only softening wash water.

Water softeners can use Potassium Chloride instead of Sodium Chloride.

http://www.wqpmag.com/potassium-chloride-vs-sodium-chloride

 

[Zorba]

My water had sulfur in it, yes. I put a filter in that stopped it. If I put a pot of water on the stove and heat it, it does not stink.

Interesting update by the way - since I pulled that rod and cut off what was left of it, the smell has been drastically dropping off. Yes I know I now do not have the rod in there, but it was pretty well shot by this point anyway.

The one thing that really concerns me about softened water is just how much sodium is really in the water at the tap? It doesn't taste salty or anything but I don't want to "over salt" my diet so to speak via drinking water.

You should check out the second link, looks like you can get rods that help with the smell. But the anode rod serves an important purpose so you don't really want to run without one forever, unless you are fine replacing the whole tank more often than you should.

 

[boomerang]

But the anode rod serves an important purpose so you don't really want to run without one forever, unless you are fine replacing the whole tank more often than you should.

Zorba, I'm thirteen years and going strong on a tank with the anode rod removed. There can sometimes be a big disconnect between theory and reality.

 

[Micrornd]

The one thing that really concerns me about softened water is just how much sodium is really in the water at the tap? It doesn't taste salty or anything but I don't want to "over salt" my diet so to speak via drinking water.

This is a major misconception most people have.
If the water softener is working properly, no salt is added to the water.
Sodium ions replace calcium or magnesium ions.
Sodium is not salt, sodium chloride is.
The above also applies if potassium chloride is used.

Very little sodium or potassium is added to the water by water softener as most is exchanged for calcium or magnesium (and remains) in the resin bed of the softener.
The overwhelming majority of salt (either sodium or potassium chloride) used by a water softener is as a brine solution used a scrubbing agent to clean the resin bed of the calcium, iron, magnesium and other contaminants/precipitates that are captured both mechanically and through the ion exchange process.

The more resin, the more a unit can remove before requiring a cleaning.
Cleaning is also the reason water softeners wear out, over time as the resin is scrubbed by the brine solution the beads are reduced in size (surface area) and become ineffective because of this.
This is why all good water softeners now incorporate a flow meter and backwash based on usage, rather than time, to allow maximum life of the resin bed.

And the resin bed is replaceable, if you are handy, at little cost compared to a new water softener.

Very little sodium (or potassium) escapes a properly functioning resin bed, but you should still have it checked.
You can easily have your water checked before and after the softener to confirm that the softener is working as it should and the levels of sodium or potassium in the water.
Many local health departments will do this for free or a nominal fee.

As to a properly working water softener if you have hard water, it is no coincidence that the highest geographic occurrences of kidney stones are in area's of hard water (high calcium carbonate).
Ask any Nephrologist what kidney stones are made of 🙄

 

[SparkyJJO]

So it has been a couple months on this, but a little update on everything.

First off, my old softener was totally shot. It wasn't drawing brine. Tinkered with the valving but it was just broken. I'll bet the resin bed may have still been ok had it been able to actually regen with brine, but whatever. My water hardness is 22gpg by the way. Hard as a brick!

I just finished installing my new water softener. Got it from Ohio Pure Water Co. It is a Fleck valve with their Vortex resin tank, with a KDF85 Mediaguard filter built into it. Should be handling iron and sulfur before it even hits the softener, but then also regens with the softener so no cartridges to replace. Nice.

For the hot water stink... it has gotten REALLY bad again. After installing the softener I drained off several gallons from the valve on the hot water tank and got nasty black water out of it again, along with a few bursts of glob that would clog up the valve. Disgusting. I'm not sure if I can actually get that cleaned out of the tank. I'm going to try, but I may have to just replace the thing to get rid of it permanently.

 

[Zorba]

You could try dumping a gallon or two of bleach into the hot water tank and letting it sit for a while, then run it through the faucets to try to clear everything out of the lines too.

You might also try one of those no-stink anode rods I posted a link to a while back. No idea if it'd fix the problem, but cheaper to try than a new HW tank.

 

[SparkyJJO]

My tank doesn't even have an anode right now. It corroded away awhile ago from the looks of it and only had the support rod left (see above). If I can get this tank to not stink for long enough then I'll look into getting a new rod. Until then, I'm not putting money into this tank lol.

I'm going to try the bleach, or I've also read about using peroxide instead as it does the same thing but is safer. Thing is, if there is black gunk in the bottom (dead/rotting plant matter) I have to get all that out otherwise it'll continue to decompose again later and smell up again. But I'll give a few things a try for sure.

 

[Zorba]

Yeah, I knew you cut out the anode. But there are some that are supposed to help eliminate odor. Although if the odor is coming from a bunch of organic crap in the bottom of the tank, I doubt it would help.