Still more violations of personal privacy by the Bush police state

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,500
6
81
With virtually no oversight, the FBI can (and does, to the tune of 30,000 national security letters a year) require recipients to provide data on the credit, internet practices, books borrowed, and other intimate data on anyone. The information is permanently stored in government databases and broadly disseminated, even after the data is found to have no relevance to the original investigation. And there's not one documented case provided by the Justice department where information obtained with this abusive power has led to the apprehension of terrorists.

To paraphrase Benjamin Franklin, those who give up some of their freedoms in the pursuit of security deserve neither security nor freedom.

Select excerpts from the very long Washington Post article

FBI Secret Scrutiny
The FBI came calling in Windsor, Conn., this summer with a document marked for delivery by hand. On Matianuk Avenue, across from the tennis courts, two special agents found their man. They gave George Christian the letter, which warned him to tell no one, ever, what it said.

Under the shield and stars of the FBI crest, the letter directed Christian to surrender "all subscriber information, billing information and access logs of any person" who used a specific computer at a library branch some distance away. Christian, who manages digital records for three dozen Connecticut libraries, said in an affidavit that he configures his system for privacy. But the vendors of the software he operates said their databases can reveal the Web sites that visitors browse, the e-mail accounts they open and the books they borrow.
.
.
The Connecticut case affords a rare glimpse of an exponentially growing practice of domestic surveillance under the USA Patriot Act, which marked its fourth anniversary on Oct. 26. "National security letters," created in the 1970s for espionage and terrorism investigations, originated as narrow exceptions in consumer privacy law, enabling the FBI to review in secret the customer records of suspected foreign agents. The Patriot Act, and Bush administration guidelines for its use, transformed those letters by permitting clandestine scrutiny of U.S. residents and visitors who are not alleged to be terrorists or spies.

The FBI now issues more than 30,000 national security letters a year, according to government sources, a hundredfold increase over historic norms. The letters -- one of which can be used to sweep up the records of many people -- are extending the bureau's reach as never before into the telephone calls, correspondence and financial lives of ordinary Americans.

Issued by FBI field supervisors, national security letters do not need the imprimatur of a prosecutor, grand jury or judge. They receive no review after the fact by the Justice Department or Congress. The executive branch maintains only statistics, which are incomplete and confined to classified reports. The Bush administration defeated legislation and a lawsuit to require a public accounting, and has offered no example in which the use of a national security letter helped disrupt a terrorist plot.

The burgeoning use of national security letters coincides with an unannounced decision to deposit all the information they yield into government data banks -- and to share those private records widely, in the federal government and beyond. In late 2003, the Bush administration reversed a long-standing policy requiring agents to destroy their files on innocent American citizens, companies and residents when investigations closed. Late last month, President Bush signed Executive Order 13388, expanding access to those files for "state, local and tribal" governments and for "appropriate private sector entities," which are not defined.
.
.
Senior FBI officials acknowledged in interviews that the proliferation of national security letters results primarily from the bureau's new authority to collect intimate facts about people who are not suspected of any wrongdoing.
.
.
The House and Senate have voted to make noncompliance with a national security letter a criminal offense. The House would also impose a prison term for breach of secrecy.
.
.
"The beef with the NSLs is that they don't have even a pretense of judicial or impartial scrutiny," said former representative Robert L. Barr Jr. (Ga.), who finds himself allied with the American Civil Liberties Union after a career as prosecutor, CIA analyst and conservative GOP stalwart. "There's no checks and balances whatever on them. It is simply some bureaucrat's decision that they want information, and they can basically just go and get it."
.
.
Under the old legal test, the FBI had to have "specific and articulable" reasons to believe the records it gathered in secret belonged to a terrorist or a spy. Now the bureau needs only to certify that the records are "sought for" or "relevant to" an investigation "to protect against international terrorism or clandestine intelligence activities."

That standard enables investigators to look for conspirators by sifting the records of nearly anyone who crosses a suspect's path.
.
.
To establish the "relevance" of the information they seek, agents face a test so basic it is hard to come up with a plausible way to fail. A model request for a supervisor's signature, according to internal FBI guidelines, offers this one-sentence suggestion: "This subscriber information is being requested to determine the individuals or entities that the subject has been in contact with during the past six months."
.
.
U.S. District Judge Janet C. Hall ruled in September that the FBI gag order violates Christian's, and Library Connection's, First Amendment rights. A three-judge panel heard oral argument on Wednesday in the government's appeal.

The central facts remain opaque, even to the judges, because the FBI is not obliged to describe what it is looking for, or why. During oral argument in open court on Aug. 31, Hall said one government explanation was so vague that "if I were to say it out loud, I would get quite a laugh here." After the government elaborated in a classified brief delivered for her eyes only, she wrote in her decision that it offered "nothing specific."





 

Pabster

Lifer
Apr 15, 2001
16,986
1
0
Originally posted by: shira
To paraphrase Benjamin Franklin, those who give up some of their freedoms in the pursuit of security deserve neither security nor freedom.

Franklin didn't live in a post-9/11 world either.

I could care less if the government looks in to the books I read. Those who are so concerned with this "invasion of privacy" must have something they'd rather not have uncovered.
 

kogase

Diamond Member
Sep 8, 2004
5,213
0
0
Originally posted by: Pabster
Originally posted by: shira
To paraphrase Benjamin Franklin, those who give up some of their freedoms in the pursuit of security deserve neither security nor freedom.

Franklin didn't live in a post-9/11 world either.

I could care less if the government looks in to the books I read. Those who are so concerned with this "invasion of privacy" must have something they'd rather not have uncovered.

Franklin just lived through a brutal war unfolding in his own backyard, something you've never come close to experiencing.
 

joshw10

Senior member
Feb 16, 2004
806
0
0
I agree with Pabster. We should all put a camera in every room of our home, in our car, and also we should wear tracking devices. This way, there is no chance of being wrongfully accused of a crime, and all real criminals will be caught. And if you have nothing to hide, then why would you care? You're just 1 of millions, the government won't actually watch you unless they have a good reason!

Afterall, it's the conservative way!
 

Pabster

Lifer
Apr 15, 2001
16,986
1
0
Originally posted by: kogase
Franklin just lived through a brutal war unfolding in his own backyard, something you've never come close to experiencing.

And that has what to do with what we're discussing?

My point was that Franklin lived in a far less dangerous world than the one we inhabit today.

Sheesh, ignorance is bliss around here.
 

kogase

Diamond Member
Sep 8, 2004
5,213
0
0
Originally posted by: Pabster
Originally posted by: kogase
Franklin just lived through a brutal war unfolding in his own backyard, something you've never come close to experiencing.

And that has what to do with what we're discussing?

My point was that Franklin lived in a far less dangerous world than the one we inhabit today.

Sheesh, ignorance is bliss around here.

Cough.
 

umbrella39

Lifer
Jun 11, 2004
13,816
1,126
126
Originally posted by: Pabster
Originally posted by: kogase
Franklin just lived through a brutal war unfolding in his own backyard, something you've never come close to experiencing.

And that has what to do with what we're discussing?

My point was that Franklin lived in a far less dangerous world than the one we inhabit today.

Sheesh, ignorance is bliss around here.

And you have proven time and time again to the the happiest one posting here. You know nothing of danger other than the occasional carpal tunnel syndrome injury. You deserve a purple heart for your bravery. :roll:
 

Pabster

Lifer
Apr 15, 2001
16,986
1
0
Originally posted by: umbrella39
And you have proven time and time again to the the happiest one posting here. You know nothing of danger other than the occasional carpal tunnel syndrome injury. You deserve a purple heart for your bravery. :roll:

How about coming back when you can address the topic at hand?

Until then, get back on the kettle, pot.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,684
136
Gotta love it, the whole notion that 9/11 changed everything, which is just another method of fearmongering and rationalization for the furtherance of a police state mentality.

Which is really what the OP references, the abuse and exploitation of a national tragedy to further a pre-existing and unrelated agenda.

9/11 has become the rightwing's universal answer, their talisman, the great shibboleth. No matter the question or the issue, the invocation of the events of that dark day justifies anything...
 

Uhtrinity

Platinum Member
Dec 21, 2003
2,263
202
106
Originally posted by: Pabster
Originally posted by: kogase
Franklin just lived through a brutal war unfolding in his own backyard, something you've never come close to experiencing.

And that has what to do with what we're discussing?

My point was that Franklin lived in a far less dangerous world than the one we inhabit today.

Sheesh, ignorance is bliss around here.


Well, it is your choice to give up your freedoms, but there are alot of people including myself that will fight it all the way.
 

imported_malcontent

Golden Member
Aug 27, 2004
1,717
0
0
Originally posted by: joshw10
I agree with Pabster. We should all put a camera in every room of our home, in our car, and also we should wear tracking devices. This way, there is no chance of being wrongfully accused of a crime, and all real criminals will be caught. And if you have nothing to hide, then why would you care? You're just 1 of millions, the government won't actually watch you unless they have a good reason!

Afterall, it's the conservative way!

And, we all know that the government never makes mistakes.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,684
136
Pabster's contention that the world is more dangerous today than in Franklin's time is pure fearmongering and agitprop, anyway. The revolutionary war was certainly no picnic, and the war of 1812 saw the US invaded and partially occupied, with much of DC burned by British troops, including the unfinished Capitol....

Think that the Terrarist are going to invade anytime RSN? If so, proceed directly to your basement, to fondle your guns, duct tape and plastic sheeting in anticipation of that calamitous event....
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Originally posted by: Pabster
Originally posted by: shira
To paraphrase Benjamin Franklin, those who give up some of their freedoms in the pursuit of security deserve neither security nor freedom.

Franklin didn't live in a G.W. Bush world either.

.
Fixed

 

JackStorm

Golden Member
Aug 26, 2003
1,216
1
0
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Gotta love it, the whole notion that 9/11 changed everything, which is just another method of fearmongering and rationalization for the furtherance of a police state mentality.

Indeed. And it would appear that Pabster would have no problem with living in a police state. So long as they didn't bother him. After all, he has nothing to hide. Never mind the fact that some corrupt government employee or official might abuse the info they collect on him.
 

NJDevil

Senior member
Jun 10, 2002
952
0
0
Wow. To anyone who'd say Ben Franklin's message is irrelevant, I call you a coward. Since you're a white non muslim male, you're willing to impose these difficulties on other with no concerns other than your own "safety." You willingly give up your freedoms, and the freedoms of others just so you can sleep at night ... pathetic. Our founding fathers would be disappointed with people like you. These are men who risked priveledge and class to fight for what they believed in, and all you're willing to "sacrifice" is the freedom of yourself and of others. I'm sorry, but my freedoms aren't for sale. I don't think the FBI has the right to know what I take out at the library, nor should they be able to easily obtain a warrant to monitor my email. Does that make me unpatriotic? I'd say the opposite ... that people who are unwilling to budge on the freedoms afforded to us have far more courage and are more prinicpled than the, "look out it's terrorism! AHHHH" crowd.

Terrorism is a threat, yes, but to exaggerate as saying it's big enough to sacrifice our freedoms for is ridiculous. Shame on you .... please give up your own freedoms. Wait an extra 4 hours in the airport, get a chip implanted into you, but don't expect me and my patriotic friends to do the same.

Edit: I think it's funny that there is a strong correlation between the "spreading freedom" people and the "i'll give up my liberty for the illusion of safety" camp. I'm baffled by the irony.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,684
136
From NJDevil-

"Edit: I think it's funny that there is a strong correlation between the "spreading freedom" people and the "i'll give up my liberty for the illusion of safety" camp. I'm baffled by the irony."

Don't be- the phenomenon is the result of skillful agitprop and the blind loyalty developed with its successful application. Properly conditioned, victims have no trouble maintaining contradictory concepts, and acting on them. It's nothing new, at all, just a new event that's being exploited. The Nazis had the Reichstag fire, today it's 9/11. History has many other examples, I'm sure....
 

umbrella39

Lifer
Jun 11, 2004
13,816
1,126
126
Originally posted by: Pabster
Originally posted by: umbrella39
And you have proven time and time again to the the happiest one posting here. You know nothing of danger other than the occasional carpal tunnel syndrome injury. You deserve a purple heart for your bravery. :roll:

How about coming back when you can address the topic at hand?

Until then, get back on the kettle, pot.

Now you win the Congressional Medal of Honor for your bravery in serving this country and its many dangers from your homeland keyboard security detail post. Well done. Your silly notion that Franklin lived in a far less dangerous world than the one we inhabiting today is speculative at best. People like you that roll over and let the government run roughshod over personal freedoms and privacy deserve neither. Must suck to walk around being scared all the time, grow a set and stop trying to use 9/11 as a reason to hate America and all that it stands for. No one is buying it from this administration and certainly not the likes of its echo chamber keyboardists.
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
0
0
Originally posted by: Pabster
Originally posted by: shira
To paraphrase Benjamin Franklin, those who give up some of their freedoms in the pursuit of security deserve neither security nor freedom.

Franklin didn't live in a post-9/11 world either.

I could care less if the government looks in to the books I read. Those who are so concerned with this "invasion of privacy" must have something they'd rather not have uncovered.

Oh right, because only terrorists and criminals desire privacy. You are truly deluded.
 

3chordcharlie

Diamond Member
Mar 30, 2004
9,859
1
81
Originally posted by: Pabster
Originally posted by: shira
To paraphrase Benjamin Franklin, those who give up some of their freedoms in the pursuit of security deserve neither security nor freedom.

Franklin didn't live in a post-9/11 world either.

I could care less if the government looks in to the books I read. Those who are so concerned with this "invasion of privacy" must have something they'd rather not have uncovered.

Yes, and I suppose you also would not mind being whisked off to prison without charges or rights, because anyone concerned about this must have something to hide.

You can't have liberty when there's someone with the authority to look over your shoulder, without cause, without review, and without consequence (for them; not necessarily for you).
 

Czar

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
28,510
0
0
Pabster,
do you trust the government? under republicans, democrats, anyone, do you absolutely trust the government?
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Uhtrinity
Originally posted by: Pabster
Originally posted by: kogase
Franklin just lived through a brutal war unfolding in his own backyard, something you've never come close to experiencing.

And that has what to do with what we're discussing?

My point was that Franklin lived in a far less dangerous world than the one we inhabit today.

Sheesh, ignorance is bliss around here.

Well, it is your choice to give up your freedoms, but there are alot of people including myself that will fight it all the way.

Welcome to P&N Fellow Freedom Fighter :thumbsup:
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
From NJDevil-

"Edit: I think it's funny that there is a strong correlation between the "spreading freedom" people and the "i'll give up my liberty for the illusion of safety" camp. I'm baffled by the irony."

Don't be- the phenomenon is the result of skillful agitprop and the blind loyalty developed with its successful application.

Properly conditioned, victims have no trouble maintaining contradictory concepts, and acting on them. It's nothing new, at all, just a new event that's being exploited.

The Nazis had the Reichstag fire, today it's 9/11.

History has many other examples, I'm sure....

Wow, so many more people realizing the successful brainwashing technique being used by the Republicans.

You guys are making me shed a tear :thumbsup:

I don't know what took so long as I echoed this so many years ago but at least people are finally starting to see it. The jury is certainly still out wheither enough Americans wake up and in suffiecient numbers to save the Country from the Republicans or not.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: umbrella39
Originally posted by: Pabster
Originally posted by: umbrella39
And you have proven time and time again to the the happiest one posting here. You know nothing of danger other than the occasional carpal tunnel syndrome injury. You deserve a purple heart for your bravery. :roll:

How about coming back when you can address the topic at hand?

Until then, get back on the kettle, pot.

Now you win the Congressional Medal of Honor for your bravery in serving this country and its many dangers from your homeland keyboard security detail post. Well done. Your silly notion that Franklin lived in a far less dangerous world than the one we inhabiting today is speculative at best.

People like you that roll over and let the government run roughshod over personal freedoms and privacy deserve neither.

Must suck to walk around being scared all the time, grow a set and stop trying to use 9/11 as a reason to hate America and all that it stands for.

No one is buying it from this administration and certainly not the likes of its echo chamber keyboardists.

The pownage factor is high :thumbsup:

However he walks with 51% of the Country so unfortunately due to successful brainwashing although it is not technically "buying" it, they do blindly support them just like Pabster and many on here. :(
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
0
0
Originally posted by: Czar
Pabster,
do you trust the government? under republicans, democrats, anyone, do you absolutely trust the government?

Apparently he absolutely trusts the Bush regime.
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
0
For anyone who ever suggested the Patriot Act would never affect ordinary Americans, you can now shut your suckholes you ignorant morons.

And for the likes of Pabster, who is so eager for us to give up our freedoms because otherwise we "...must have something (we'd) rather not have uncovered..." or because "Franklin lived in a far less dangerous world than the one we inhabit today," I say bullsh!t to that as well.

3000 people died on 9/11 and not to trample their legacy, but more people have slipped and died in their bathtubs since that day. 50 times as many have died in their cars on our highways. Point is -- this world is not more dangerous because of terrorism, in fact it's just a blip on the screen in terms of real danger.

And yet, you'd give up your freedoms for that miniscule chance that terrorism might actually affect you? Damn, Franklin was right, you deserve neither security nor freedom because you obviously don't appreciate either.