Stick a fork in it, Windows Phone is dead.

[Artdeco]

They should drop ARM phones and go for x86 atoms instead with optimised W10 . Then at least they would have something unique about their system that can't be matched by iOS/Android.

I have yet to find an Atom powered device that's not miserable.

Here's a quote from Sanjay during an interview with Buzzfeed a couple of months ago:

“I think we do ourselves a disservice if we measure our success by just looking at: What’s the market share of HoloLens? What’s the market share of Xbox? What’s the market share of PCs? What’s the market share of our phones?” Nadella says. “Go back to what I said about the mobility of experience. If you think of this more like a graph, these [devices] are all nodes. Sometimes the user will use all of these devices … sometimes they’ll use only one or two of our devices and some other platforms — so be it. But we want to make sure that we are completing the experience across all of these devices.”

Nadella is a breath of fresh air after Ballmer, giving Belfiore a year off was admitting they were on the wrong track and need to reboot the whole WP program. He's playing a long game, and that's difficult to do when you're a publicly traded company, stockholders want immediate results and are difficult to persuade to look at time periods of years VS months. Honestly, I have my doubts that Belfiore will return to head the WP line, or if he does return, I don't think it will be for very long in that position.

There were some mis steps with the Surface line, but they learned fairly quickly and have produced some compelling products. A reboot of WP following the Surface cookbook seems the best path.

 

[Commodus]

I have yet to find an Atom powered device that's not miserable.

They're fine in Android devices like phones and tablets -- ASUS in particular seems to do a good job of using them. The big issue is when they're used in Windows tablets and laptops, at least beyond the entry level.

Besides, if there is a Surface Phone in the works, it'll be using a 2016-era Atom and not the ones we have now. I'm not pretending that this will reignite Windows' mobile audience and make Apple or Google quake in their boots, but Atom + Windows in a phone may stand a better chance than you think.

 

[Torn Mind]

The phones are fine. Its windows that kinda sucks at this point. Which is why no one develops for it.

Basically after windows 7, microsoft self destructed.

They released windows 8, 8.1 with the most ridiculous unnecessary UI changes that drove away all their fans. It was a turd.
Windows 10 is simply a polished turd.

And even then windows 10 is craziness. The OS UNINSTALLS THINGS? without my consent? Ive never heard of such a thing?!!

The strong arm tactics of trying to get people to upgrade, the blatant spying, basically telling you THIS IS NOT YOUR DEVICE ANYMORE, you are just using it.

Why in gods name would anyone want their phone, their important phone, having that abysmal system on it just for a tad more compatibility?

Compared to iOS and android, windows is bloated and slow and is now basically the only system not derived from UNIX which says something imo.

Most of MSs services are not as good as Googles and Apples anymore.

Microsoft scared away half their customers and enraged and insulted the rest.

Its insane how they ruined their company in such a short time. I bought a small windows 10 tablet to try it out, its barely usable, slow, hard to use with fingers, my 70$ 10" chinese crap android tablet works way better.

The day Google makes a fully functional desktop OS that OEMs will ship, MS is over with.

Its kinda sad. I feel bad for Microsoft lol.

I take it you have never used the actual phone operating system called Windows Phone 8.1. While it has the Metro interface, it does not have a desktop mode or the rest of expected in RT or full Windows 8. IT ALSO CAN RUN ON ARM CHIPS.

As for your tablet, without hardware specs, one cannot conclusively say whether it is just the OS or the actual hardware causing the issue.

Google will fail like all the other *nix desktop distros(how is that Ubuntu thing doing?), and they also want your data, believe it or not.

Microsoft has no apps because they were late, not because the OS sucks.

 

[poofyhairguy]

Google will fail like all the other *nix desktop distros

Uh, ChromeOS is pretty successful.

 

[cronos]

Uh, ChromeOS is pretty successful.

The penetration of ChromeOS on Chromebook through the K-12 school system in the US is pretty amazing. People probably don't notice this if they don't have kids in school. It is everywhere.

Some schools actually permanently loaned the Chromebooks to their students all school-year long, while some have one ready for everyone whenever it is needed in the classroom. Not to mention most written homework are done through Google Docs, email through the GMail-hosted system, etc.

 

[MarkizSchnitzel]

Compared to iOS and android, windows is bloated and slow and is now basically the only system not derived from UNIX which says something imo.

I bought a small windows 10 tablet to try it out, its barely usable, slow, hard to use with fingers, my 70$ 10" chinese crap android tablet works way better.

I call bs on this. Big BS.
If you really tried windows on a tablet, you certainly would not be saying this.

My T100 runs buttery-butter smooth. Have you seen how Atom Windows tablets multitask? It actually quite amazing how the UI (as long as you stay in metro) works.

Even in desktop, as long as you don't find some terribly unoptimized JS heavy site (for example Udemy), it browses amazingly well. I can open 30-40 tabs with probably hundreds of ads and shit and it still works without dropping any frames.

Try that on iOS (reloading EVERY SINGLE TAB) or android.



But you do have a point about windows being in trouble. Software library will fill up very quickly when google or apple open the floodgates of a real desktop. That could be bad for MS if by that time they still depend much on windows (but it does seem they are transforming into the services first company).

 

[Zaap]

But you do have a point about windows being in trouble. Software library will fill up very quickly when google or apple open the floodgates of a real desktop. That could be bad for MS if by that time they still depend much on windows (but it does seem they are transforming into the services first company).

I must be missing something, otherwise that's MacOS/OSX. Or are you talking about Apple going full circle in the other direction with iOS?

 

[MarkizSchnitzel]

I must be missing something, otherwise that's MacOS/OSX. Or are you talking about Apple going full circle in the other direction with iOS?

Well it's really off topic now, but yeah.

OSX has limited hardware choices that are far too expensive for vast bulk of the people. So maybe iOS that can replace OSX may not be the best option for them, but who knows. They did allow multitasking now on iPad Pro.

On the other hand, desktop on Android (something like RemixOS, but better)on many devices spanning all the price points would certainly be a threat.

 

[LPCTech]

Hows Ubuntu doing? Ubuntu Gnome is doing fine on one of my laptops used daily.

The 2 tablets im comparing:
The windows one was bought with win 8.1 on it and upgraded to win10, then reset to base win 10 install and updated to erase all 8.1 remnants. It was upgraded before it was used with 8.1 on it at all.
It has a 1.33Ghz Atom Z3735G and 1GB ram, 32 bit OS, its slow. It cannot cast a chromcast tab to the tv, the thing just hangs. Everytime you do anything it takes a while. It is basically used to browse if it is used. It can barely play a youtube video. Yes I know 1GB ram is way too little for windows. And I know hardware is the issue. Yet...

I bought a digiland Android 4.4 tablet over a year ago, the windows one is new, it ALSO has a 1.3Ghz processor but its not intel, its mediatek, it also has 1GB ram. In addition the small windows tablet is only 7" while the android one is 10" they both have the same low screen resolution. It can cast its screen to the tv without issue, not youtube, its screen. It is fast. I have been using it for a year nearly daily with no issues. Works great.

The windows tablet is smaller, and should be more powerful. But its not cuz it has to run windows 10 and not android 4.4
I have no interest whatsoever in apple products.

So if im buying a low power device or a tablet. Its going to be android cuz win 10 in addition to its other issues, isnt as quick on the same hardware. Windows needs better specs to run properly.
ALSO the tablet mode on win 10 is clunky, the keyboard pops out when its not needed, and wont come out sometimes when you do need it lol. And when you upgrade an android device it doesnt remove things without consent.

and...i just noticed this was about phones not tablets...hehe Ive never used a windows "phone" my girlfriend had a windows phone 7.5 and hated it tho :sneaky:

The worst thing for MS is that when i get tech support calls from old people, they keep asking me "This win 10 is terrible, do you recommend a mac? And what is youbunto?(old people) because I dont like this system. I hear it all day long from 50-70 year olds.

To be fair I will mention that I have an HP laptop from 2009 that was win 7 that was upgraded to 10 that has no issues and works quite well. I just dont like windows on tablets etc. And was not too fond of it removing my printer drivers and antivirus during one of the later updates, but I fixed that.

 

[poofyhairguy]

OSX is a real OS that is far too complicated for vast bulk of the people.

Fixed.

The real revolution of the iPhone/iPad it is gave a solid compute option to those who could never keep a Windows machine free from malware or who though their computer was "too emotional" (because they didn't know how to use it).

Nothing is easier than rows of icons.

 

[Denly]

I deal with lots of IT in EDU and things go in circles, 10yrs ago it is all MS, 5yrs ago "looks like ipad is going to take over EDU, MS in trouble", 1yr ago "looks like Chrome o/s is going to take over EDU, MS in trouble". All this while EDU still buy more MS than Chrome/IOS combine....

And MS just bring in record profit and no sign of slowing down unlike Apple and Google.

 

[Commodus]

And MS just bring in record profit and no sign of slowing down unlike Apple and Google.

Only that's not true. At all.

Microsoft recently reported its fiscal Q2 (calendar Q4) results, and its revenue was down 10 percent year-over-year; its net profit was down 15 percent. And it specifically notes that Windows OEM revenue was down 5 percent, so it's not just the 49 percent drop in Windows Phone revenue that's to blame.

Apple's the one that had a record quarter this fall, not Microsoft. And as long as the Windows PC and phone markets continue to shrink, that trend could continue.

 

[cronos]

I deal with lots of IT in EDU and things go in circles, 10yrs ago it is all MS, 5yrs ago "looks like ipad is going to take over EDU, MS in trouble", 1yr ago "looks like Chrome o/s is going to take over EDU, MS in trouble". All this while EDU still buy more MS than Chrome/IOS combine....

And MS just bring in record profit and no sign of slowing down unlike Apple and Google.

I don't know what you've seen in EDU that could get anyone said that iPad is going to take over EDU, but I'm pretty sure it's exaggerated. In K-12, Apple maybe got as far as subsidizing a handful of schools with a few units per classroom, and that's about it. In higher education, there's basically very little chance of Apple getting through simply because of how tough it is to get Apple ecosystem working in a corporate setting, so no go here either.

Other than that, I agree that it's always a cycle, and MS still has a pretty strong hold overall simply because of its long history and legacy systems. It's going to be a tough to completely unseat MS, and I don't see it happening soon.

 

[quikah]

I don't know what you've seen in EDU that could get anyone said that iPad is going to take over EDU, but I'm pretty sure it's exaggerated. In K-12, Apple maybe got as far as subsidizing a handful of schools with a few units per classroom, and that's about it. In higher education, there's basically very little chance of Apple getting through simply because of how tough it is to get Apple ecosystem working in a corporate setting, so no go here

2-3 years ago iPad in the classroom was a big thing. Experience has not been good.

 

[IamDavid]

2-3 years ago iPad in the classroom was a big thing. Experience has not been good.

This.
Now school districts ae suing for millions of $$$. Apple tried and failed on a large scale take over of EDU. Surface line from MS has now given MS the upper hand and I doubt anyone looks back after the lawsuits.

MS Phone is not dead. MS's approach has been very disappointing and down right pathetic but they'll get it right soon enough. I look for a large scale push into enterprise soon where devices and software is bought together. Think Office 365 today with a phone included for $5 more per month, or even less for low end phones.. MS isn't dumb, just slow. Give me 6 months at MS and I'd own google, then Apple after 1 year.
Unified apps will help the app gap once MS can demonstrate the sheer # of devices running windows 10.

 

[cronos]

2-3 years ago iPad in the classroom was a big thing. Experience has not been good.

Like I said, his claim was exaggerated.

 

[Commodus]

This.
Now school districts ae suing for millions of $$$. Apple tried and failed on a large scale take over of EDU. Surface line from MS has now given MS the upper hand and I doubt anyone looks back after the lawsuits.

To my knowledge, LA is the only high profile example. I agree that the iPad isn't always a good fit, but try to offer concrete examples when you can!

MS Phone is not dead. MS's approach has been very disappointing and down right pathetic but they'll get it right soon enough. I look for a large scale push into enterprise soon where devices and software is bought together. Think Office 365 today with a phone included for $5 more per month, or even less for low end phones.. MS isn't dumb, just slow. Give me 6 months at MS and I'd own google, then Apple after 1 year.
Unified apps will help the app gap once MS can demonstrate the sheer # of devices running windows 10.

Here's the thing: we haven't seen tangible signs of Microsoft 'getting it right' in either the past or the near future. Windows Phone 7 was supposed to be the big reboot that put Microsoft back in the mobile game... it wasn't. Windows Phone 8 was a major upgrade that was supposed to increase the diversity and competitiveness of the platform... it didn't.

Windows 10 Mobile does bring universal apps and integrated features like Continuum, but a lot of its success is contingent on both compelling devices and developers actually wanting to write apps with Windows phone support. Given that the first two W10 devices (the Lumia 950 and 950 XL) were horribly buggy, and we haven't seen evidence of spikes in development of either third-party phone hardware or universal apps, I'm not convinced a turnaround is imminent.

As it stands, you're glossing over one of the bigger problems: Windows on mobile is still treated as a side project at Microsoft, rather than the central focus it must be. How does the company expect to beat Apple and Google in mobile when it doesn't devote nearly as many resources to the cause? This isn't 2002, when Microsoft could claim a large chunk of the smartphone market just by showing up -- it has to prove that it's determined to win.

 

[IamDavid]

To my knowledge, LA is the only high profile example. I agree that the iPad isn't always a good fit, but try to offer concrete examples when you can!




Here's the thing: we haven't seen tangible signs of Microsoft 'getting it right' in either the past or the near future. Windows Phone 7 was supposed to be the big reboot that put Microsoft back in the mobile game... it wasn't. Windows Phone 8 was a major upgrade that was supposed to increase the diversity and competitiveness of the platform... it didn't.

Windows 10 Mobile does bring universal apps and integrated features like Continuum, but a lot of its success is contingent on both compelling devices and developers actually wanting to write apps with Windows phone support. Given that the first two W10 devices (the Lumia 950 and 950 XL) were horribly buggy, and we haven't seen evidence of spikes in development of either third-party phone hardware or universal apps, I'm not convinced a turnaround is imminent.

As it stands, you're glossing over one of the bigger problems: Windows on mobile is still treated as a side project at Microsoft, rather than the central focus it must be. How does the company expect to beat Apple and Google in mobile when it doesn't devote nearly as many resources to the cause? This isn't 2002, when Microsoft could claim a large chunk of the smartphone market just by showing up -- it has to prove that it's determined to win.

Totally agree MS has treated it as a side project, exactly why I think that once they put true effort behind it they'll take off quickly. No point in putting in the effort quite yet without the app base. The typical consumer won't give anything new a try unless A: its very, very cheap or B: the experience is quickly seen as a huge step forward. Neither are true with WP. Enterprise route and merging with services like O365 supplement the cost so the entry point in negligible.
I don't believe the 950 or 950XL was meant to be a mainstream device or ones to win over he masses but more of a proof of concept device. Kinda like the MS band 1. It wasn't even meant to be a long term device for MS but a proof of concept for them to show off the software to sell to other companies. MS had no plan or expectation that I'd take off like it did.

I still think MS needs to by a major carrier too.

Edit: Multiple school district in Texas are suing or have already settled over IPAD failures. Lawsuits aren't always against Apple but the companies that put them in the schools.

 

[Artdeco]

Snip

I think MS's biggest problem is that to make a dent in the market, you've got to bring your "A" game and offer a compelling reason to switch, and that's almost impossible in a relatively mature market.

What are we? 80%+ Android and whatever iOS is? I don't see those numbers changing any time soon.

 

[desura]

I never understood why MS didn't simply offer free use of its engineers to big apps.

BTW...why aren't google apps supported on windows phone?

 

[Artdeco]

I never understood why MS didn't simply offer free use of its engineers to big apps.

BTW...why aren't google apps supported on windows phone?

And honestly, MS should have offered to pay for developers to work on WP apps, and subsidize the $ big apps needed to spend to keep their apps updated, have them agree to update for a couple of years till the revenue from the apps started coming in, it would have helped a lot, especially considering the money Ballmer spent on Nokia.

It just seemed like MS's house was on fire and they just took a step back and watched it burn.