go phx. they probably wont win if they match up with SA (but hey you never know) but for what they've done this year and the accomplishement steve nash has made, he does deserve MVP and they are the most improved team.
- Oct 9, 1999
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Your stats are screwy. Nash shot over 50% from the field and 43% from three. That in and of itself makes him more valuable than Iverson, who hit only 31% of his three-pointers. The guy is a chucker, anybody can score thirty points a game taking twenty-four shots. Amare scored 26 a game while only taking 16.7 shots. If he'd put it up as much as Iverson, that projects out to over 37 points a game! The point is not that the Suns made the playoffs, but the fact that they won over twice as many games as they did last year.
Miramonti
Lifer
- Aug 26, 2000
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Its ridiculous imo that shaq is even in the consideration. He's always going to be one of the most influential players in the league, but all he has to do is show up to do that, which is about all he did this year compared to his previous outputs.
Nash and AI actually played out of their minds.
Nash and AI actually played out of their minds.
that's simply not true. it is truly amazing how a 5'11" guy gets off 40 shots a game especially considering he is the only real offensive threat on that team. it's not like we have a team of great role players in Philly.
does he (Iverson) deserve the mvp probably not, but just to dismiss him is pretty stupid too.
Nash was the MVP of the season this year. Miami was already a good team before shaq got there and even without shaq miami would probably have won their division.
phoenix even with kidd probably wouldn't have been as good as they were this year.
ya but wasnt' duncan that year better than shaq this year for miami?
it's kind of hard to argue against duncan when he is healthy and playing at the top of his game.
SP33Demon
Lifer
- Jun 22, 2001
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Ok, I did look in the wrong column for the Nash FG%, it was 8% higher than AI's which is very good. It still doesn't make up for the fact that AI nearly doubled Nash's ppg and doubled his steals per game while also beating him in rebounds/game, while only throwing out 3.5 less assists. Also, Nash got to the FT line 238 times, he's not even in the top 50 in the league in FT attempts. AI got there 786 times, that's over triple the amount of Nash's, that's 2nd in the league in FT attempts ahead of even Shaq.
Also, to say that someone who takes 24 shots a game should easily score 30ppg is absolutely absurd. First off, they would have to hit 15 of those shots, that's 62.5% (even Shaq was only at 60% and he LED the league).
Next, comparing a center to a shooting guard's FG% is just stupid, Amare Stoudamire is 6-10 and gets clean dishes from Nash in the paint. Centers (and rare occasions F) will always lead the league in FG%, anyone with half a brain and follows basketball knows that. How come you didn't comment about AI beating out big name guards like Kobe and TMac as far as shots/game and PPG percentages were concerned?
Last but not least, AI was second in the league in FT ATTEMPTS. First was Amare, third was Shaq. How is a 5-11 guy getting to the line as much as centers?
You're crazy if you don't think AI should have been at least in contention for MVP (let alone better than Nash's), his overall numbers are slightly better than when he won MVP in 2000-2001.
- Oct 9, 1999
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It's becoming obvious that it's pointless debate with you because you're showing yourself to be nothing more than a Philly homer. Apparently I'm not the only crazy one, because AI only got two first-place votes for MVP . . .
This whole argument that Nash has made Stoudemire is ridiculous. The guy scored 20+ points a game before Nash came along. His game has developed as he gets more experience; Nash has made it easier for him to get some opportunities, but Amare is also hitting a lot more outside shots, and taking a lot of guys off of the dribble and in the post this year. He doesn't dunk the ball every time he touches it.
I love you say I don't know much about basketball and then entirely discount the fact that Nash shot 50% from the field. That's nearly unheard of, especially for point guards. The three most recent guys to do it were named Johnson (Magic and Kevin) and Stockton. Oh, but it just highlights your favorite players biggest weakness, so we can't have that.
You want to compare guards to guards? Fine. I'll even allow you that Iverson is really a 2 and not a point, and give you McGrady and Kobe. If T-Mac had taken as many shots as Iverson, he'd have averaged 29 a game. If Kobe had taken as many shots as Iverson, he'd put up almost 33! And that doesn't even account for the extra free throw opportunities that both players would get from increased field goal attempts. Translation - Iveson is a chucker, plain and simple. He's a hard nosed player who gives everything he's got for his team, but he's still a shucker.
Honestly I thought Shaq should have won MVP, but I'm happy that Steve did. You're delusioinal if you think AI should even be in the same consideration as Shaq and Nash.
i KNOW i'm not a "philly homer" and iverson is definitely not my favorite player, but to call him just a chucker is really stupid.
he is more creative, a better shot creator than any 5'11" guy i've ever seen. shoot, he can create shots better than MJ could. he just doesn't have MJ's height.
the reason McGrady doesn't get off as many shots, he's not as creative as AI. he doesn't know how to get himself in the same positions.
AI definitely belongs in the arguement as one of the top 5 best players in the NBA this year, shoot he belongs in the argument of one of the top 5 active NBA players.
Well, it's hard to tell if nash made amare better, or amare just got better because he's 1 year older. But amare definitely SEEMS better. I think nash had a tremendous effect on the team. Being a selfless passer is a great way to get your team more involved. I'm sure his positive attitude also had a good effect on them.
AI is also excellent. Forget about the shots he takes, which are largely because he is the only viable offensive player on his team. What makes him an MVP candidate is his heart and desire. There is no one even near AI in this area. The guy would probably continue to play with both of his legs amputated.
AI is also excellent. Forget about the shots he takes, which are largely because he is the only viable offensive player on his team. What makes him an MVP candidate is his heart and desire. There is no one even near AI in this area. The guy would probably continue to play with both of his legs amputated.
- Oct 28, 1999
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Look at the MVP list. They are *for the most part* key players in very successful teams.
If AI had a better supporting cast to help him out, he probably would have gotten the nod. But he didn't. Nash on the other hand is on a team that is going to be a championship contender. The only reason Philly even made it to the playoffs is because of a miserably weak eastern conference.
People don't like to vote MVP's on losing teams. Just the way it is. Obviously exceptions apply, but look at the MVP list for the last 15 years. Almost every single MVP was on a team that either won the NBA championship or went very deep into the playoffs. Philly got thumped 4-1 in the first round.
If AI had a better supporting cast to help him out, he probably would have gotten the nod. But he didn't. Nash on the other hand is on a team that is going to be a championship contender. The only reason Philly even made it to the playoffs is because of a miserably weak eastern conference.
People don't like to vote MVP's on losing teams. Just the way it is. Obviously exceptions apply, but look at the MVP list for the last 15 years. Almost every single MVP was on a team that either won the NBA championship or went very deep into the playoffs. Philly got thumped 4-1 in the first round.
i believe amare's fg% dropped a lot when nash was out . im thinking down to 39%? anyone care to verify?
nash was never injured long enough to see the effect. but the games he missed, phoenix actually doesnt seem to be a huge threat in those games (leandro barbosa is not a true PG IMO). JJ is a 2 guard and Q/Jim Jackson just shoot the lights out on 3s.
if nash was injured for 2-3 weeks with phoenix, then there will be a huge difference. i dare say within that hypothetic stretch PHX wont even win 50% of those games.
if nash was injured for 2-3 weeks with phoenix, then there will be a huge difference. i dare say within that hypothetic stretch PHX wont even win 50% of those games.
SP33Demon
Lifer
- Jun 22, 2001
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Please provide the math to your TMAC would have averaged X pts, and Kobe would have averaged X pts. To say that Iverson is just a chucker is hilarious. He gets to the line more than any other PG in the game, and is always in the top 2 in the league in steals.
You also did not address the "chucker" argument: AI finished within (in some cases better) than 1 FG percentage point behind good guards like TMac, Kobe, Ray Allen, Arenas, Antoine, Francis, Maggette, Hughes, Ben Gordon; as well as big men like Carmelo and Webber. In fact, TMac took only 9% less shots than Iverson (158), but scored 20% less points per game (5). Lebron took 8% less shots than Iverson yet scored 11% less per game. Ray Allen took 21% less shots yet scored 25% less per game.
So do all the players I just listed suck, and are they "chuckers" or "shuckers" (w/e the hell that is?). Please, tell us all how Carmelo sucks, how Lebron sucks, how TMac, Stevie Franchise, and Kobe suck. How the 6th man of the year, Ben Gordon sucks for having a lesser FG% than AI. Right.
My math on the percentages: I took the diff between AI's attempts and say, TMacs (158) and then divided by TMacs total attempts to get % less shots than AI. Then I took the difference in ppg between AI and TMac (5 points) and divided by TMac's average to get the % less ppg scored for TMac. Hence the statement: TMac took only 9% less shots than Iverson (158), but scored 20% less points per game. That's a differential of 11% less than AI's ppg regarding total FG attempts. Does TMac suck now b/c he "chucks" more than AI?
Btw, I'm a Homer now? How about I keep relaying facts related to the topic at hand, and you keep name calling from your middle school computer lab. Thanks. Amazing that an Elite member has to resort to mental midgetry to try and augment his argument.
Didn't Nash say something like he would have voted for Shaq?
That Shaq only has one MVP is a travesty!
That Shaq only has one MVP is a travesty!
- Oct 9, 1999
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It's a simple formula, it's called points-per-shot. This is the best way to account for three pointers and free-throws. I'm not calling AI's field goal percentage into question, it's only bad when compared to a stellar performance like Nash's. But tell me this . . . when a team has an All-Star PF in Webber, a rising young center in Dalembert, a young star in Andre Igoudala at SG, and a dynamite sharp-shooter in Kyle Korver, why do they barely scratch their way into the playoffs? Why do they get bounced in five games?
Don't be so sensitive, being called a homer isn't a deragatory appelation, it's merely indicating that you're not looking at all sides of the issue. And, FYI, a chucker is a player who takes an inordinate number of shots, at the expense of his teammates. One need only look at Webber's number of shots pre- and post-trade to see the effect AI has on his teammates.
As far as Amare's FG percentage without Nash . . . in those seven games Nash missed Amare averaged 25 points and 8.4 rebounds, shooting 49% from the field. All of last year, without Nash, he put up 20 points and 9 boards, shooting 48%. Some argument could be made that his field goal percentage has improved with the addition of Nash, but several other aspects have his game have improved in the last several years so it's hard to say how much is Nash and how much isn't. And if it is Nash making Amare better, then isn't that all the more affirmation needed to crown him MVP? Playing alongside AI didn't do Webber's stats any justice.
I'm a big fan of AI, but nobody can deny what Nash did with the Suns. I do feel for Shaq. With how good Wade and Jones are, Shaq won't get the stats he needs to get the regular season MVP. All he can do is get another championship and, possibly, the Finals MVP.
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