Stefan Molyneux exposes Bernie Sanders as the quack he is

Page 2 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
Well, I'll pass on Venezuela, but I'd take Germany, a country that does exactly what you are putting down as rampant socialism.....creating a nation of educated, tax paying workers who don't exit school, be it college or trade schools, without owing $20K or more. It's the whole invest-and-get-big-returns thing, like citizens with jobs that pay taxes.

But, I forgot. Germany's one of those damned socialist countries, right?

I think your statement shows a general lack of understanding of the terms Socialism and Capitalism.

Germany has Socialism, but it is not Socialist. The vast majority of Germany's economy is Capitalist. The government owns very little in terms of its economy.

Also, Capitalism is not any investment which is the implication you put forth. The difference in that regard is simply that Capitalism leaves the investment to the market to pick and choose, where as Socialism uses the government to choose.

http://www.debate.org/opinions/is-germany-a-socialist-country

Politically people label Germany as socialist, but in reality the country is by far capitalist.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,150
6,317
126
One thing that every CBD knows for certain, among the millions of other things, is that socialism is bad and that if you have ever been called a socialist, your are bad too.

Any CBD worth his salt will stand on a roof top and yell this five times a day. This is because we are all out of enough trees and leopards.
 

Strk

Lifer
Nov 23, 2003
10,197
4
76
I think your statement shows a general lack of understanding of the terms Socialism and Capitalism.

Germany has Socialism, but it is not Socialist. The vast majority of Germany's economy is Capitalist. The government owns very little in terms of its economy.

Also, Capitalism is not any investment which is the implication you put forth. The difference in that regard is simply that Capitalism leaves the investment to the market to pick and choose, where as Socialism uses the government to choose.

http://www.debate.org/opinions/is-germany-a-socialist-country

Politically people label Germany as socialist, but in reality the country is by far capitalist.

I think Meghan's point was that what Germany has and what people accuse a country that has a similar structure is some evil socialist country. It doesn't matter that it isn't the case. It doesn't matter that they are overwhelmingly capitalist, while paying less and offering more to their citizens. I think their health care and education alone should be copied over here.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
3,320
126
Yes, character assassination is a tool that those without the ability to think through their assertions use to discredit their attacker without having to answer the claims.
You don`t anjswer the claims of a certified kook!! Just because he makes unsubstantiated claims does not mean those bogus claims need to be answered......
 

NoStateofMind

Diamond Member
Oct 14, 2005
9,711
6
76
Well in the first few minutes before it became too insulting to my intelligence to watch I counted these things:

1. A baffling comparison to the GDP of Europe in 1870. (wut)

2. The frequently used and highly dishonest statement that antipoverty programs haven't reduced poverty. People who try to say this use the federal poverty statistic that doesn't count transfers. That means they count all the costs of antipoverty programs and count none of the benefits. This is dishonest.

3. A ridiculous comparison of government debt to personal debt. Why that comparison is nonsensical has been gone over many times here.

4. The laughably wrong statement that estate taxes wouldn't produce any additional revenue. (that one failed a basic logic test)

These are arguments made by someone who either doesn't understand the numbers he's talking about or he's being deliberately dishonest. It's all the more amusing that he tries to insult the intelligence of other people on several occasions, considering the embarrassing mistakes he's made. And hell, there's still another ~45 minutes or so of this nonsense.

He seems to be a relatively entertaining speaker, which maybe explains why people listen to this pants-on-head babbling nonsense?

How does this defend bernies crazy propositions again? Oh right, it doesn't.
 

NoStateofMind

Diamond Member
Oct 14, 2005
9,711
6
76
An almost infinite amount of money will be spent to stop Sanders is he shows any sign of winning. The brain dead will easily be convinced to fuck themselves you know where just is the moron OP is doing.

One thing that every CBD knows for certain, among the millions of other things, is that socialism is bad and that if you have ever been called a socialist, your are bad too.

Any CBD worth his salt will stand on a roof top and yell this five times a day. This is because we are all out of enough trees and leopards.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2441562
 

NoStateofMind

Diamond Member
Oct 14, 2005
9,711
6
76
I think Meghan's point was that what Germany has and what people accuse a country that has a similar structure is some evil socialist country. It doesn't matter that it isn't the case. It doesn't matter that they are overwhelmingly capitalist, while paying less and offering more to their citizens. I think their health care and education alone should be copied over here.

Well that's all fine and dandy, yet that's not what big bad Bernie is proposing, is it?
 

NoStateofMind

Diamond Member
Oct 14, 2005
9,711
6
76
You don`t anjswer the claims of a certified kook!! Just because he makes unsubstantiated claims does not mean those bogus claims need to be answered......

Yeah I guess if you want to stick your head in the sand and pretend that these idiot claims by berny bern have no effect on what people do with their money then great. Have at it. Just know you're deluding yourself.
 

CitizenKain

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2000
4,480
14
76
I agree with Stefan on every statement.

The Truth about Bernie Sanders


CMEsHzxWsAAF3ww.jpg

Dumbshit libertarian garbage form a clueless idiot. Yawn.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
I think Meghan's point was that what Germany has and what people accuse a country that has a similar structure is some evil socialist country. It doesn't matter that it isn't the case. It doesn't matter that they are overwhelmingly capitalist, while paying less and offering more to their citizens. I think their health care and education alone should be copied over here.

Venezuela and Germany does not have a similar structure.

NSoM maid a very valid point in that giving away free college is not really free. A college has people that must be paid and supplies that must be purchased. It is a fact that to pay for those things you must take from one person to give to another. If you do this type of thing enough you qualify as a socialist country. German does many socialist things like health care, police, education ect. If you look at all those things combined, you will see its is not a majority of the countries GDP.

If you look at Venezuela, you will see that the majority of their GDP comes from the government structures. Venezuela is on a totally different level than is Germany.

NSoM correctly pointed out that public education is a socialized system. His comment was to say that if you think that system is so great, you should go and see a country that has socialized the majority of its country. Knowing people from Venezuela that left, they did not like it.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,498
50,651
136
Venezuela and Germany does not have a similar structure.

NSoM maid a very valid point in that giving away free college is not really free. A college has people that must be paid and supplies that must be purchased. It is a fact that to pay for those things you must take from one person to give to another. If you do this type of thing enough you qualify as a socialist country. German does many socialist things like health care, police, education ect. If you look at all those things combined, you will see its is not a majority of the countries GDP.

If you look at Venezuela, you will see that the majority of their GDP comes from the government structures. Venezuela is on a totally different level than is Germany.

NSoM correctly pointed out that public education is a socialized system. His comment was to say that if you think that system is so great, you should go and see a country that has socialized the majority of its country. Knowing people from Venezuela that left, they did not like it.

That's a straw man though. I'm not aware of anyone here arguing for socialism on the level of Venezuela, and a socialized system of education such as what Sanders is advocating has been successfully implemented in other developed nations.

The guy in that video seems to have a poor understanding of public policy and economics. He doesn't seem to be in a position to criticize anyone.
 

1prophet

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
5,313
534
126
Venezuela and Germany does not have a similar structure.

NSoM maid a very valid point in that giving away free college is not really free. A college has people that must be paid and supplies that must be purchased. It is a fact that to pay for those things you must take from one person to give to another. If you do this type of thing enough you qualify as a socialist country. German does many socialist things like health care, police, education ect. If you look at all those things combined, you will see its is not a majority of the countries GDP.

If you look at Venezuela, you will see that the majority of their GDP comes from the government structures. Venezuela is on a totally different level than is Germany.

NSoM correctly pointed out that public education is a socialized system. His comment was to say that if you think that system is so great, you should go and see a country that has socialized the majority of its country. Knowing people from Venezuela that left, they did not like it.

Anyone can play with words and use them to promote their agenda while pretending it is for your benefit,

What you need to look at is the totality of the situation, what Venezuela calls socialism is some fools wish to play dictator while pretending to be for the people, that's why it doesn't work and never will, not because they call it socialism.

while in Germany they look at the various social programs as an investment to further the country as well as the individual in the long term and because of that it works.
 

Lonyo

Lifer
Aug 10, 2002
21,938
6
81
No, they are both "parasitism". haha

You can call me a clown if that makes you feel better as I am all for your self esteem. Yet your anger directed at the "rich" is misguided. Yes the rich are part of the blame, but remember, their riches (and immunities) do not exist without a mutual interest of government. Bernies ridiculous economic 'fixes' are a fantasy and will not help anyone but the very same who its helping now.

I mean look at this guys tax (theft) proposal. 90% on the rich! Well that sounds dandy to the pissed off people getting a piping today doesn't it? That is until you think that stupidity through. As Stefan points out, what do you think will happen if Bernie bad ass was elected? Do you think the Rich would sit idly by? "Oh I'll just sit here and let Bernie make off with my cash"....umm no! Rich people aren't stupid and since you've announced you're coming for their wealth it will be out of this country the moment he's elected.

Bernie the bumbs 'free' college isn't any better. Stefan points out this is an intelligence test. There's nothing free in this world and before Bernie can hand out anything he first has to take it. Someone is producing that wealth and it isn't him.....

If you like socialism that much, maybe check out Venezuela? I hear its working out great for them.

Bernie lovers are emotional kneejerk reaction types and not those who use reason and logic.

That link to the 90% tax "proposal" says nothing about a proposal for a 90% tax rate. It has a comment about him not thinking 90% is obscene, and then a comment from the author of the article that his wealth redistribution could be achieved with a 90% tax.
It does NOT say that Sanders has proposed a 90% marginal tax rate. He has, however, stated that his "comprehensive tax package" would probably include a top marginal rate in excess of 50%, and points out that in the past it has been 90%.

Free college: It seems to work reasonably elsewhere, see... Europe.

Socialism: Lets use the example of a failing state where the socialism has NOTHING to do with the actual use of tax money from people, and where the socialism is based purely on oil revenues and the government is not the most sensible. Yay Venezuela.
For another example of oil based socialism, see Norway, which is rather successful with its oil based socialism.
For other successful socialist nations (e.g. through high quality of life) see... most of Europe.

Now, I know my response was utterly pointless, as you do not care in the slightest about facts or reasoned argument.
You probably just hate socialism, and are of the sort who thinks if people want socialism such as exists in Europe they should just move there. That's fine, but spouting nonsensical bullshit doesn't exactly present you as a reasoned person. It would be better to just say that you believe the US shouldn't move to a European style socialist/redistributive society because you don't think that's what the US is or should be about.

Then you can just say you disagree with Sanders because you think his ideas are fundamentally wrong in terms of philosophy, rather than making up shit or twisting facts/specially selecting examples to try and make your point that are so easily taken apart someone who knows only 1 thing about Sanders can respond to you like this.
My one thing I know about him is that some girl interrupted his speech with some Black Lives Matter thing.

Also the knee jerk reactionary who doesn't use reason or logic seems to be you.
 

BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
15,877
1,548
126
Well in the first few minutes before it became too insulting to my intelligence to watch I counted these things:

1. A baffling comparison to the GDP of Europe in 1870. (wut)

2. The frequently used and highly dishonest statement that antipoverty programs haven't reduced poverty. People who try to say this use the federal poverty statistic that doesn't count transfers. That means they count all the costs of antipoverty programs and count none of the benefits. This is dishonest.

3. A ridiculous comparison of government debt to personal debt. Why that comparison is nonsensical has been gone over many times here.

4. The laughably wrong statement that estate taxes wouldn't produce any additional revenue. (that one failed a basic logic test)

These are arguments made by someone who either doesn't understand the numbers he's talking about or he's being deliberately dishonest. It's all the more amusing that he tries to insult the intelligence of other people on several occasions, considering the embarrassing mistakes he's made. And hell, there's still another ~45 minutes or so of this nonsense.

He seems to be a relatively entertaining speaker, which maybe explains why people listen to this pants-on-head babbling nonsense?

If I can add to your criticism, it would only be in response to people who say "I'm a laissez-faire capitalist" or "a Libertarian" that it's just more of people buying into a single ideology and belief system. It almost seems a paradox, but ideologues are "utopians" in a broad sense. This is no compliment: it means that adherents refuse to meet the world the way it is, have a vision of the way it ought to be, and might even feel inclined to "get there" all at once without incremental change.

We've lived in "mixed economy" since the 1930s. If there are "transfers," they aren't "pure public goods" and enhance the perception of those who don't directly benefit that someone is exclusively benefiting at their expense. It follows Ayn Rand's delusional idea that "altruism" is bad, selfishness is good, and that I don't sleep better at night knowing that kids on the other side of town are also going to sleep on a full stomach.

There is another abstraction which I entertain, only because it seems to explain something: Hegelian dialectic -- thesis, antithesis -- synthesis.

After WWII, part of the US economy adopted aspects of "corporatism' through creation of the National Security State. This is a type of fascism. At the same time and during the Cold War, the "mixed economy" expanded with socialistic or collective-good responses, justified to strengthen society in the $6 Trillion expenditure defense build-up and occasional misadventures. We got the national highway system, NDEA student loans, massive infusions of federal cash into state economies. And overall -- human progress and much prosperity.

The ideologues on the Right use "Socialism" as an epithet, ignoring that it only offers a partial tool-box available to "common-sense."

They also believe Oswald was a "real communist." And that old canard was the entire point of it.

Finally, there are two myths they promote. "If we have most of the wealth, we have the most to lose, and therefore we have a greater right to govern."

And there's the myth that certain industries an majority stockholders (tycoons) "earned every penny" with the implications of having every right to do with it as they please.

Maybe if you grow potatoes or run an ice-cream parlor, you "earned every bit of it." But if your returns are guaranteed because everyone else "needs" what you have and you're only one of a few providers, your property-rights argument is corrupt.

In response to the first myth -- called it a "straw-man" if you wish -- Wealth begets income and wealth with less or no human effort. Prudent management of wealth alleviates short-term losses; steak is always on the table; the $10 million estate mortgage will be paid; you only defer adding another Lamborghini to your collection until better times.

The owner of a four-digit bank account can actually see much greater risk and uncertainty. The owner of a four-digit bank account cannot afford to make mistakes like "The Great Silver Bubble" of the Hunt brothers.

Eliminating the Estate Tax is only as much of an "American" idea as it is a resurrection of pre-Revolution Tory privilege.
 

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,500
6
81
I agree with Stefan on every statement.

The Truth about Bernie Sanders


CMEsHzxWsAAF3ww.jpg
I listened to 15 minutes; it was rambling and incoherent, making assertions not backed by evidence. Such as "Check Laffer," when Laffer's theories have been widely discredited by economists and by actual history.

If you "agree with Stefan on every statement," you're a fool blinded by ideological bias.
 

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,500
6
81
This comment to the video sums up nicely just how intellectually dishonest the interviewer was being, and why Sanders refused to play ball:

"Does the government have the right to initiate physical force on innocent people?" This simpler question would have been much more effective in engaging Bernie in meaningful dialogue on his views. But rather, the interviewer obfuscated his question in a logical-philosophical construct, and made no attempt to rephrase the question, clarify it, or provide Bernie with context, though it was obvious that Bernie was seeking contextual clarification. The interviewer's sole motive is obvious, and I think I would have shut down the interview too. BTW, Bernie was not the only one who got trapped and shut down the interview.

But you, of course, like intellectual dishonesty.
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,562
3
0
1. I'm not going to waste an hour watching some random fuckface rant about a political candidate on youtube.

2. I have serious reservations about Sanders, but I have a lot more about Hillary and most of the current GOP slate. If it comes down to Trump or Jindal or any other ultraconservative kook/buffoon getting the nod, I'll be first in line at the polls to vote Democrat, even if it is Hillary *shudder*.

3. At the very least Republicans control congress, and are unlikely to lose both houses in the near future (in fact Sanders getting elected could strengthen their hold depending on what he tried to do). So even if elected Sanders couldn't run amok, and that might serve to smooth his more radical edges.
 

BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
15,877
1,548
126
1. I'm not going to waste an hour watching some random fuckface rant about a political candidate on youtube.

2. I have serious reservations about Sanders, but I have a lot more about Hillary and most of the current GOP slate. If it comes down to Trump or Jindal or any other ultraconservative kook/buffoon getting the nod, I'll be first in line at the polls to vote Democrat, even if it is Hillary *shudder*.

3. At the very least Republicans control congress, and are unlikely to lose both houses in the near future (in fact Sanders getting elected could strengthen their hold depending on what he tried to do). So even if elected Sanders couldn't run amok, and that might serve to smooth his more radical edges.

Actually, I agree with your last sentence. Here's my take on Sanders.

He's probably less of an ideologue than Rand Paul as "Libertarian." He doesn't have a "utopian" socialist agenda.

And he's still off-center on his issues-menu, but closer than some others.

We'll see how that shakes out as the Dem debates progress. Even if he doesn't get the nomination, he has a serious patter of presentation. He'll raise the issues he and his pre-primary supporters hold in common. It will influence a Democratic platform.

By comparison, I see suddenly one of the Koch brothers deciding to voice similar issues, and it's a gross understatement to call it "disingenuous."

They're all fishing for votes -- that's understandable. The question remains, "Who's lying and who's telling the truth?" "Who will say anything he needs to in order to get elected, and who will say what he/she means and mean what he/she says?"

In 2008, when Obama won the primary, I had Dem friends who were closet-bigots whining "Oh, no! Look what the Democrats did to us! The black guy can't win! The black guy can't win!"

So are your chances worse for simplistically describing yourself as a "socialist," or for being -- not only black -- but of "mixed" race?
 

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,596
19
81
No, they are both "parasitism". haha

You can call me a clown if that makes you feel better as I am all for your self esteem. Yet your anger directed at the "rich" is misguided. Yes the rich are part of the blame, but remember, their riches (and immunities) do not exist without a mutual interest of government. Bernies ridiculous economic 'fixes' are a fantasy and will not help anyone but the very same who its helping now.

I mean look at this guys tax (theft) proposal. 90% on the rich! Well that sounds dandy to the pissed off people getting a piping today doesn't it? That is until you think that stupidity through. As Stefan points out, what do you think will happen if Bernie bad ass was elected? Do you think the Rich would sit idly by? "Oh I'll just sit here and let Bernie make off with my cash"....umm no! Rich people aren't stupid and since you've announced you're coming for their wealth it will be out of this country the moment he's elected.

Bernie the bumbs 'free' college isn't any better. Stefan points out this is an intelligence test. There's nothing free in this world and before Bernie can hand out anything he first has to take it. Someone is producing that wealth and it isn't him.....
I'm fascinated why people so often care about what happens to the extremely wealthy.
The peasants cry at the thought of the ruling family losing some of their millions of gold pieces, while still being very rich.
(As a rhetorical example, a billionaire can lose 99% of his wealth and still be extremely well-off. A lower-middle class household can lose <20% and be irreparably screwed. It can be very difficult to sympathize when someone with that level of resources complains about how tough it is to "feed their family" with such high taxes.)

I believe that the most useful function of taxation at higher levels as a negative feedback system to prevent accumulation of power. Wealth buys power.
The foundation of the US system of government was intended to prevent power from becoming concentrated, because our entire species has shown over its thousands of years of recorded history that it cannot handle it responsibly. If extraordinary wealth becomes concentrated in the hands of a small number of individuals, they use it to wield great power over others, including the elected officials who were ostensibly put into their positions to serve the interests of the electorate. In this case, the three primary branches of government can be subverted by a fourth group that operates from the outside, simply buying whatever they want.



If you like socialism that much, maybe check out Venezuela? I hear its working out great for them.


Bernie lovers are emotional kneejerk reaction types and not those who use reason and logic.
Things have been great here, too. Dot-com bubble imploded 15 years ago, 6 years ago the banks screwed around in risky investments that tanked and then whined for the taxpayers to pay for their idiocy, wages for many people have been depressed while those already making a lot of money have been gaining even more (people tend to respond poorly when they perceive unfair treatment), essential infrastructure maintenance is being neglected which will in turn depress the economy further, and economic uncertainty always seems to hang in the air...
It feels like things never fully rebounded from 2009, unless you were already doing quite well.
(And Venezuala's per-capita GDP is about 1/3 that of the US. I'd expect them to encounter problems that we would not see on a regular basis.)

I've also seen the effect of a business owner who is willing to dump money back into his company, rather than hoard most of it for himself: It encourages investment in one's own company, in the form of new or upgraded equipment, and receive a tax credit in return. That leaves you with the options of letting the government snatch up its fistful, or instead push that money into making your business more productive and profitable, or even pay it out in the form of profit sharing. Workers who feel they are treated fairly and paid adequately can be more willing to devote themselves to the company, which also is a form of return on investment.


To close, this isn't meant to oppose specifically the accumulation of wealth. The root problem is the concentration of power that accompanies the concentration of wealth. We're foolish and ignorant if we try to convince ourselves that we'll handle that kind of power concentration responsibly this time around. History has repeatedly shown otherwise.
 
Last edited:

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
I think your statement shows a general lack of understanding of the terms Socialism and Capitalism.

Germany has Socialism, but it is not Socialist. The vast majority of Germany's economy is Capitalist. The government owns very little in terms of its economy.

Also, Capitalism is not any investment which is the implication you put forth. The difference in that regard is simply that Capitalism leaves the investment to the market to pick and choose, where as Socialism uses the government to choose.

http://www.debate.org/opinions/is-germany-a-socialist-country

Politically people label Germany as socialist, but in reality the country is by far capitalist.
Well said, sir.

As for me, I'm about as far from "Bernie's crowd" as one gets (although I applaud him for his honesty in calling himself as Socialist even as I disagree with him economically), I have no clue who is Stefan Molyneux, and I didn't watch even a full minute of this because - repeat after me - there is no wisdom on Youtube.

Except Chris Rock, and this is some pasty chalky.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
Well said, sir.

As for me, I'm about as far from "Bernie's crowd" as one gets (although I applaud him for his honesty in calling himself as Socialist even as I disagree with him economically), I have no clue who is Stefan Molyneux, and I didn't watch even a full minute of this because - repeat after me - there is no wisdom on Youtube.

Except Chris Rock, and this is some pasty chalky.

Youtube is full of fun videos. I have found many things that have taught me quite a lot. Just yesterday I watched a Frontline special on ISIS. I also learned how to play Cities Skyline before buying the game.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Youtube is full of fun videos. I have found many things that have taught me quite a lot. Just yesterday I watched a Frontline special on ISIS. I also learned how to play Cities Skyline before buying the game.
Yes. All truisms are exaggerations and distortions. ;)

I'm actually going back and listening to some of 0roo0roo's and BlueMax's links to educate myself on GamerGate while I work tonight. Doh!
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
Yes. All truisms are exaggerations and distortions. ;)

I'm actually going back and listening to some of 0roo0roo's and BlueMax's links to educate myself on GamerGate while I work tonight. Doh!

GamerGate is a lost cause. Just like the BLM movement, when you have enough crazy people chiming in the message gets lost.

If you want some good vids, check out a guy I listen to.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMIj-wEiKIcGAcLoBO2ciQQ

I like him because he sources a lot of his stuff, so I can check what he is saying. His vids is where I learned about MGTOW. MGTOW is like modern feminism but for men, bat shit crazy 99% of the time.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
all i will say is that doing the same thing over and expecting a different result is the definition of insanity.

compared to the other candidates, he is a breath of fresh air.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, socialist or not, I'd vote for Sanders before any other current candidate if only to shake things up.

But the Democrat elite won't let that happen, they're doing everything they can to make sure the anointed one sits in the Oval Office.