Starter problem...

[IHAVEAQUESTION]

This morning, I got in the car, put the key in, turn, and...nothing. Silence. The engine is not even trying to crank up.

The battery was replaced a month ago. Light, stereo were working fine, so there is electricity.

The tow guy came and said he can start the engine. He stuck something on the side of starter and asked me to turn key to "on" position. Then he started the car from the starter.

Hmmm, what exactly did he do? I want to learn that trick too.

Also, does it warrant a starter replacement? Seeing how easily he got it to start, I am not sure if my starter is in that bad of condition.

 

[iamwiz82]

He shorted the terminals on the starter. Could be either an issue with the ignition switch or the solenoid.

 

[Greenman]

Actually, he shorted the the terminals on the starter solenoid. Get a new one.

 

[IHAVEAQUESTION]

How do you short the terminal on starter solenoid?

Might come handy if same thing happens again.


Btw, 98 Accord V6 here.

 

[LTC8K6]

The Solenoid is just a big 12V relay. It closes when you turn the key to Start. To bypass it, you just short the big terminals on it yourself with say, a screwdriver. This is dangerous, though and I don't recommend it except as a last resort.

You can also apply +12V to the smaller positive terminal on the solenoid to make the solenoid operate without turning the ignition key. You are essentially duplicating what happens when you turn the key to Start. If the solenoid works when you do this, it's probably okay. It's probably not receiving 12V from the ignition switch circuit.

This is likely what the tow guy did.

I would just pull the starter and solenoid and have them tested.

 

[IHAVEAQUESTION]

Wait wait wait wait.

On my service manual, it shows the BLK/WHT wire connected to S (small?) terminal, and starter cable connected to B (big) terminal. So you mean to stick a screwdriver on the B terminal and that will generate a spark to start the engine? The tow guy didn't use cable.

 

[LTC8K6]

You would want to connect the big and little terminals, I believe. That should cause the solenoid to close and run the starter motor.

Assuming the small wire is +12V to the solenoid and the big cable is coming from the + side of the battery.

A safer way to do this is to use a battery charger to supply the 12V to operate the solenoid.

Negative to a vehicle ground and positive to the small solenoid terminal.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: IHAVEAQUESTION
Wait wait wait wait.

On my service manual, it shows the BLK/WHT wire connected to S (small?) terminal, and starter cable connected to B (big) terminal. So you mean to stick a screwdriver on the B terminal and that will generate a spark to start the engine? The tow guy didn't use cable.

Example. That's a starter that's out of the engine, but you get the idea. The screwdriver has to touch both terminals on the solenoid.

This is HIGH AMPERAGE and is definitely dangerous. People who try this without knowing what they are doing have welded screwdrivers to the terminals, electrocuted themselves, and occasionally run themselves over with the car. This is most likely what the tow truck driver did IMO, but he was playing a little fast and loose with his safety.

This is an absolute last resort and I do not recommend it as a continued practice. I don't mean to be offensive, but if you called a tow truck without doing your own basic troubleshooting, then this is something you're probably better off not knowing. At the very least you should not learn it from an internet forum; find someone in the three-dimensional world to learn from; it's easier to pick up knowledge that way and you can get things clarified much more easily.

ZV

 

[LTC8K6]

Yeah, that's the first way I mentioned and said not to do!

 

[exdeath]

Should always consult a wiring diagram before doing anything with electrical. Just blindly shorting things is bad news.

Most starters on modern cars have the high current solenoid integrated into the starter housing where it also does double duty as the pinion throwout solenoid. Typically you have a single high current +12 going to the starter straight from the battery, and a single low current connector ultimately coming from the ignition switch "start" terminal, both using chassis ground. Supplying +12 to the small wire connector closes the circuit that draws high current and starts the starter. Since the big cable on the starter is just +12 straight from the battery, it's sufficient to say "connect the big and little connectors on the starter"

You put the key in the on position to enable the EFI system, and connect a jumper switch between the low current connector on the starter to the +12 and bumping that switch does exactly the same thing as bumping the start position at the key.

If the car starts this way, but not from the ignition switch, it's a blown fuse or an intermediate relay between the ignition switch and starter "start" start terminal.

Of course, you don't have a anti-theft system or any other sort of starter kill system right?

 

[IHAVEAQUESTION]

No. No anti-theft system or anything like that.

So let me get this straight.

The point is that we need to supply +12 volt to the small wire connector to start the car, right?

So I loosen both cables on the starter. And connect the big cable (+12) to the small wire connector, it will start?

And if I do the same except for taking off the positive terminal battery cable and connect to the small wire connector, it will start?

And if I just use a piece of metal to connect the small and large connector on starter, it will start?

The way I understand you is that the big wire on the starter is essential the same as the positive terminal battery cable.

So which is safer? I am thinking to use a jumper wire to connect the positive battery terminal to the small connector. Would this be safer?

Do I disconnect the negative battery cable while doing this?

 

[LTC8K6]

Just use a battery charger to trigger the solenoid and don't disconnect anything but the small +12V wire on the solenoid.

Charger negative clamp to any ground, key on, touch charger positive clamp to small +12V terminal on the solenoid.

Should be a regular "dumb" 12V car battery charger. This will substitute for the 12V from the battery, but not be nearly as dangerous.

This is the safest way for you to do this, imo.

 

[LTC8K6]

If you have a multimeter and know how it works, just check to see if you have 12V to that small solenoid terminal when a friend turns the key to START.

 

[IHAVEAQUESTION]

Thanks. I am just being paranoid.

So any of the three methods I mentioned will work right?

The tow guy certainly thought it was safe to use screwdriver. I don't think he would risk his life for my car. Uuuuh...would he?

Car charger...sounds expensive.

 

[sjwaste]

The safe way to do this, sort of, is to just hit the starter solenoid housing with something non-conductive like a broomstick. Usually whacking it a couple of times and then trying to start the car with the key will work. (Remove broomstick before attempting to start)

As Z said, if you don't already know how to do this, then you don't understand the danger of doing it. I was going to post a sarcastic "watch your fingers" but seriously, do you know why the car's battery is as big as it is? It's to be able to crank enough amperage to the starter to get the car running. When you short the starter solenoid like that, you're getting very close to the flow of that current. I'd recommend not doing that at all. You could severely injure or kill yourself.

Pull the starter, get it tested, replace what's broken, and drive happily. The whole thing can't be more than $150 if you do it yourself. Are you really putting a price on your safety lower than that?

 

[BlackTigers]

When this happened to my Caravan, we beat the starter with a ratchet. It was never a problem again.

 

[compman25]

Originally posted by: exdeath
If the car starts this way, but not from the ignition switch, it's a blown fuse or an intermediate relay between the ignition switch and starter "start" start terminal.

It can be more than just that, like the neutral safety switch for the transmission.