Star Citizen: Chris Robert`s new space sim (the Wing Commander guy)

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Stringjam

Golden Member
Jun 30, 2011
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With default keyboard configuration Ctrl+C is the toggle for Relative Mouse Mode and RightAlt+M is the toggle for Look Ahead Mode.

Are those modes mutually exclusive or they are additive?
Relative Mode and Interactive Mode are mutually exclusive and only apply to M/KB users. Look Ahead Mode can be accessed by both M/KB and stick users. It can be additive to Relative Mode for M/KB users.

When playing with keyboard and mouse:

1. - Without toggling anything you fly in Look Ahead Mode (so that would be the Default Mode). True/False?
I believe the default mode for M/KB is Interactive Mode and Look Ahead Mode (LAM). LAM will have no affect as it can only be added to Relative Mode.


2. - Starting from Default Mode, if you press Ctrl+C you switch into Relative Mouse Mode. True/False?
True. And LAM is active on top of it.

*Relative Mode only applies to M/KB.

3. - Starting from Default Mode, if you press RightAlt+M you disable Look Ahead Mode. True/False?
True.

4. - Starting from Default Mode, if you press RightAlt+M and after that you press Ctrl+C then you switch into Relative Mouse Mode or into some kind of combined mode?
You switch into pure Relative Mode. Since LAM is enabled by default, this would disable it. Should be easy to tell, as at this point, all weapons and view should be locked to center.

5. - Same question for starting in Default Mode then Ctrl+C and then RightAlt+M. What mode are you in now?
Since LAM is an additive targeting / flight system that can work on top of Relative Mode, you should just end up in Relative Mode.

I think, because I haven't used M/KB in a long time, and things seem to change all the time.

When I get some time I will log in and make sure to verify the above is correct. Like I said - been a long time since I flew with the M/KB, so I could be wrong on some of the defaults now. Also, you only have to disable LAM once per game and it sticks, but you have to switch to Relative Mode every time you spawn.
 
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Seba

Golden Member
Sep 17, 2000
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Let's see if I understood correctly:

For KBM:

Default Mode is [Interactive Mouse Mode] + [Look Ahead Mode (LAM) enabled].

* Starting from Default Mode you can change into other 3 combinations:

a. - Press Ctrl+C => [Relative Mouse Mode] + [LAM enabled]
(and another press of Ctrl+C toggles back to Default Mode)

b. - Press RightAlt+M => [Interactive Mouse Mode] + [LAM disabled]
(and another press of RightAlt+M toggles back to Default Mode)

c. - Press both Ctrl+C and then RightAlt+M (or vice versa) => [Relative Mouse Mode] + [LAM disabled]
(and another press of both Ctrl+C and RightAlt+M toggles back to Default Mode; only one toggle leaves you in a. or b., depending on which single toggle you used)
 
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Stringjam

Golden Member
Jun 30, 2011
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Okay, I logged in tonight and things have definitely changed since the last time I tried to use a M/KB.

LAM is default. It appears to operate as an independent mode that is not additive to Interactive Mode.

Pressing Right Alt + M disables LAM.

Disabling LAM reverts to Interactive Mode.

From this point pressing CTRL + C will switch back and forth between Relative Mode and Interactive Mode.

If you are in Relative Mode, enabling LAM will activate LAM over Relative (additive).

If you are in Interactive Mode, enabling LAM will revert totally to LAM (Default Mode).


That's the easiest way I can think to explain it. The key to knowing where you are is just to know how each mode feels, and to understand that if you are in Relative Mode, enabling LAM will be additive.

If you're new to the way the ship feels, and you want to get a base, switch to Relative Mode (CTRL + C) and then disable LAM (Right Alt + M). In this mode, your guns and your view will be locked center. Your ship will fly with direct control.

Then switch between Relative Mode and Interactive Mode while LAM is disabled. Once you get the feel for these two base flight modes, switch LAM on and off and you'll quickly learn whether it's on or off.

FWIW - the above ONLY applies to KB/M users.

If you're a joystick user, you're either flying with LAM, Target Focus, or default flight (locked and center).
 
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Seba

Golden Member
Sep 17, 2000
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I don't have a joystick (or joysticks).

But I have a Xbox 360 controller and also played a little using that.
If you're a joystick user, you're either flying with LAM, Target Focus, or default flight (locked and center).
Do you know if this also applies when using a controller?
 

Stringjam

Golden Member
Jun 30, 2011
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Do you know if this also applies when using a controller?

I'm not sure, but I believe it behaves like the joystick (somebody correct me if I'm wrong).

I've heard that they are working on phasing out Interactive Mode and replacing it with LAM.

I don't have any interest in using it for single-seat dogfighters (I don't think those ships should even have gimbals in the first place, but I digress), but for fighting in big ships with slow rotation rates, I think it's going to be very useful for joystick users who need to control turreted / gimbaled weapons. You simply aren't going to be able to turn fast enough to keep up with small fighters.
 
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Stringjam

Golden Member
Jun 30, 2011
1,871
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Well, I was somehow able to get my 3X Tarantula 350R loaded with ammo. Basically just messed with removing guns / putting back on / enter and exit holotable until it finally stuck.

Still can't access the shield at all (and desperately need to). All you have to do right now is look at it and it explodes, but I think I'm going to keep flying it in BR anyway.

One note, and I'm curious if this is the case with any other in the 300X series: adding missile racks increases speed.

I took them off thinking it might go even faster with the reduced mass, but my AB speed dropped from 475 m/s to 450 m/s. Weird.
 

TechBoyJK

Lifer
Oct 17, 2002
16,699
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Well, I was somehow able to get my 3X Tarantula 350R loaded with ammo. Basically just messed with removing guns / putting back on / enter and exit holotable until it finally stuck.

Still can't access the shield at all (and desperately need to). All you have to do right now is look at it and it explodes, but I think I'm going to keep flying it in BR anyway.

One note, and I'm curious if this is the case with any other in the 300X series: adding missile racks increases speed.

I took them off thinking it might go even faster with the reduced mass, but my AB speed dropped from 475 m/s to 450 m/s. Weird.

Im still recovering from surgery, so im a little loopy.. but a few days before the surgery I spent REC on an upgraded shield.. but couldn't do anything with it. I hope i can soon upgrade my shields AND they don't nerf the tarantulas too much. I think I could win some BR matches if I had just a little better shields.
 

Stringjam

Golden Member
Jun 30, 2011
1,871
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Im still recovering from surgery, so im a little loopy.. but a few days before the surgery I spent REC on an upgraded shield.. but couldn't do anything with it. I hope i can soon upgrade my shields AND they don't nerf the tarantulas too much. I think I could win some BR matches if I had just a little better shields.

Looking through the issue reports, it appears that it's a widespread issue with all the ships.


BTW....has anybody tried this?

http://holoxplor.azurewebsites.net/

It's basically a web-based UI that allows you to upload your inventory XML, modify it, and then download.

star_citizen___roberts_space_industries_ship_ui_by_z_design-d5y7x1m.jpg
 
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Seba

Golden Member
Sep 17, 2000
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I made some tests to better understand different flight modes behavior (all done while using keyboard and mouse controls; default key bindings).

To remove one variable, I tested with ship engines turned off (and ship stationary). Using Electronic Access - Arena Commander - Drone Sim - Free Flight. Tested with Hornet F7C and with Mustang Delta. Could not make the same tests with Aurora LN, because although the ship's computer confirms that the engines are deactivated (when I press 6), in reality the engines still work.

=== IMPORTANT (LAM states -enabled/disabled- names reversed from previous posts) ===
Because the view (what you see from inside the ship cockpit) is fixed when RightAlt+M toggle is pressed once (when starting from the Default Mode) and because the way the keybindings for Relative Mode and for Look Ahead Mode toggles are displayed in the Game Options, I think that in reality we should say that in Default Mode Look Ahead Mode is disabled, not enabled. The mode into which you swich after you press RightAlt+M toggle is the one where you can only look straight ahead, no matter how you move the mouse. In Default Mode, you are not restricted to only looking straight ahead (I am not talking about Free Look here).
=======

Initially I noticed different behaviors with different ships (Hornet F7C vs. Mustang Delta), but after a restart of the game, both behaved the same, so I edited my post.

-------

---
A. Default Mode ("Look Ahead Mode" disabled + Interactive Mouse Mode "Relative Mouse Mode" OFF). I am using the term "Interactive Mouse Mode" for the state in which Relative Mouse Mode is not enabled. Edit: Replaced "Interactive Mouse Mode" with "Relative Mouse Mode OFF".

In the centre of the screen is Gun Cross cursor (a dot with 4 lines in each direction), surrounded by another 4 lines from another cursor, like this (all lines are of equal length in the game and the dot should be aligned with the lines):
Code:
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    |
_ _ . _ _ 
    |
    |
I do not know what this second (bigger cross) cursor is called and what it indicates.

Another cursor is Line of Sight (LOS) marker/cursor (LOS marker is a big circle with a dot in the centre; the circle is interrupted in 3 points, like a Mercedes emblem from which the star was broken off).

When moving the mouse around:
- the LOS cursor moves around the screen;
- movement is free up to a certain point in each direction (up/down and left/right), quite far from the centre position;
- the view follows the mouse movement until a certain limit (if you move the mouse right, then you look a little to the right side of the cockpit);
- if you stop the mouse movement, the view (what you see from the cockpit) remains almost fixed in that position (there is a small movement, like the pilot head is shacking a little); LOS cursor also remains almost fixed in that position; this shacking is more pronounced in Hornet 7C and very little in Mustang Delta.
- the gimbaled weapons do not move as fast as you can move the mouse, but eventually they will point to the LOS cursor centre (if not moved too far, past their range of motion/rotation): LOS cursor has a bigger cone of view/motion than the gimbal gun mounts from the Hornet F7C. When you shoot the guns, the fire is in the centre of the LOS cursor (after the gimbaled guns reach the position).
- fixed guns (and gimbaled guns with gimbal mounts locked) are always shooting into the centre of the screen (into Gun Cross cursor centre), no matter where you move the mouse.

---
B. Press Ctrl+C toggle when starting from Default Mode => "Look Ahead Mode" disabled + "Relative Mouse Mode" ON.

Gun Cross cursor remains in the centre of the screen, but the other cross (4-lines) cursor is now in the position where LOS cursor was when Ctrl+C toggle was pressed.

When moving the mouse around:
- LOS cursor and the view (what you see) moves around the screen, but it springs back to the centre of the screen when you stop the mouse; feels like the LOS cursor is tied with an elastic rubber band (with zero initial length) to the Gun Cross cursor from the centre of the screen.
- the gimbaled guns are still trying to fire to the centre of LOS cursor, but because you have to always fight the LOS "rubber band", it is difficult to fire for long in a certain direction (in a certain point on the screen).
- fixed guns (and gimbaled guns with gimbal mounts locked) are always shooting into the centre of the screen (into Gun Cross cursor centre), no matter where you move the mouse.

---
C. Press RightAlt+M toggle when starting from Default Mode => "Look Ahead Mode" enabled + Interactive Mouse Mode "Relative Mouse Mode" OFF.

Gun Cross cursor remains in the centre of the screen; the other cross (4-lines) cursor also is not changing it's position on the screen.

When moving the mouse around:
- LOS cursor moves around the screen, but the view (what you see) remains stationary; there is no small movement around this position, like it happens in case A (that small shacking).
- the gimbaled guns are following LOS cursor (like in case A). Fire goes to the centre of LOS cursor (if within motion range of gimbal gun mounts). If you move the mouse too fast, it takes a while for gimbal gun mounts to reach the position, but they will get there;
- if you move the mouse and then stop, the LOS cursor (and the point were the gimbaled gun fire will go) remains stationary. You can fire indefinitely in the exact same point (the "bullets" still spread a little, because of the gun inaccuracy; but the general direction is fixed). Just move the mouse so that LOS cursor centre reaches the desired position, wait for the gimbal gun mounts to reach the same orientation and then fire.
- fixed guns (and gimbaled guns with gimbal mounts locked) are always shooting into the centre of the screen (into Gun Cross cursor centre), no matter where you move the mouse.

---
D. Press RightAlt+M toggle and also Ctrl+C toggle when starting from Default Mode => "Look Ahead Mode" enabled + "Relative Mouse Mode" ON.

Gun Cross cursor remains in the centre of the screen; the other cross (4-lines) cursor also is not changing it's position on the screen. LOS cursor aligns with the Gun Cross cursor and disappears from the screen (it is no longer visible).

When moving the mouse around:
- nothing moves (nor cursors, neither the view);
- the gimbaled guns remain in the fixed centre screen position (no matter where you move the mouse, they always fire in the centre of the screen - this is only true when the ship does not move at all).
- fixed guns also fire in the same Gun Cross cursor centre (centre of the screen)

=======
Initially, when testing with Mustang Delta, it's gimbaled weapons were not firing into the centre of LOS cursor in Default Mode for instance (like Hornet F7C gimbaled weapons did), but somewhere between the LOS cursor centre and the Gun Cross centre. This was fixed by a restart of the game so it was a game bug, not some strange intended behavior.

Some preliminary observations, when ship engines are turned on:

- The "rubber band" effect of the "Relative Mouse Mode" ON makes the ship to only pitch and yaw for a short time after you move the mouse. When you move the mouse more (bigger distance), the ship will turn faster. If you no longer move the mouse, the LOS cursor snaps to the Gun Cross cursor (middle of the screen) and the ship will stop pitching/yawing.

- In Interactive Mouse Mode "Relative Mouse Mode" OFF, if you move the mouse, the ship will pitch/yaw as long as you do not manualy return the LOS cursor in the screen centre (by moving the mouse). Otherwise, the ship will keep pitching or yawing, even if you no longer move the mouse. When you move the mouse more (bigger distance between Gun Cross cursor and LOS cursor), the ship will turn faster. In this mode, there is a "dead zone" near the Gun Cross centre. Moving the LOS cursor (by moving the mouse) only inside this dead zone area will only move the gimbaled guns, not the ship. This dead zone is bigger for yaw than it is for pitch. The dead zone is necessary in this mode, because without it you would have to bring the LOS cursor exactly in the centre of the screen in order to completely stop pitch/yaw movement. In the "Relative Mouse Mode" ON, the "rubber band" is taking care of that (as long as you stop the mouse). This behavior is the same, no matter if LAM is enabled or disabled.
 
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Stringjam

Golden Member
Jun 30, 2011
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Seba - - I made corrections and explanations below in red:


-------

---
A. Default Mode (Look Ahead Mode enabled). I am using the term "Interactive Mouse Mode" for the state in which Relative Mouse Mode is not enabled.
This mode is pure LAM. LAM is not additive to Interactive Mode.

When moving the mouse around:
- the LOS cursor moves around the screen;
- movement is free up to a certain point in each direction (up/down and left/right), quite far from the centre position;
- the view follows the mouse movement.....
This last observation is the key indicator that LAM is enabled.

---
B. Press Ctrl+C toggle when starting from Default Mode => Look Ahead Mode enabled + Relative Mouse Mode.

When moving the mouse around:
- LOS cursor and the view (what you see) moves around the screen, but it springs back to the centre of the screen when you stop the mouse; feels like the LOS cursor is tied with an elastic rubber band (with zero initial length) to the Gun Cross cursor from the centre of the screen.

This is Relative Mode with LAM Enabled.

---
C. Press RightAlt+M toggle when starting from Default Mode => Interactive Mouse Mode.

When moving the mouse around:
- LOS cursor moves around the screen, but the view (what you see) remains stationary; there is no small movement around this position, like it happens in case A (that small shacking).

This is Interactive Mode. What I bolded above is your key indicator here that you are in IM. LAM does not interact with IM - they are mutually exclusive.


D. Press RightAlt+M toggle and also Ctrl+C toggle when starting from Default Mode => Look Ahead Mode disabled + Relative Mouse Mode.

When moving the mouse around:
- nothing moves (nor cursors, neither the view);
- the gimbaled guns remain in the fixed centre screen position (no matter where you move the mouse...

This is pure Relative Mode. If LAM were enabled, the gimbals would be active, as LAM can be active on top of Relative.
 

Seba

Golden Member
Sep 17, 2000
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I know that everybody are saying that LAM is enabled in Default Mode and you disable it when you press RightAlt+M, but I think that they (and you) are wrong about this. Please read my reasoning (marked IMPORTANT). Modes C and D are the ones in which you can only look ahead, so this state should be considered LAM enabled (and no matter the state of the Ctrl+C toggle).

Also, when you look at the keybindings picture from the Game Options, Ctrl+C is marked as the toggle to enable Relative Mouse Mode and everybody agrees into calling this state (when starting from Default Mode and then you press Ctrl+C once) as some kind of "Relative Mouse Mode". You are calling it "Relative Mouse Mode with LAM enabled" or "Pure Relative Mouse Mode", depending on the state of the LAM toggle. But I think that Relative Mouse Mode really only indicates the state of the Ctrl+C toggle and it indicates if that "rubber band" effect is present or not. When this "rubber band" effect is not present (in Relative Mouse Mode OFF), if you move the mouse some distance (past the dead zone) and leave it there, the ship will continue to pitch/yaw until you bring the mouse back inside the dead zone (towards the Gun Cross centre). This happens no matter the LAM state (enabled or disabled).

Similarly, RightAlt+M is labeled "Look Ahead Mode". So LAM should be considered enabled after you press that RightAlt+M toggle, the same as you consider Relative Mouse Mode enabled after you press Ctrl+C toggle.

fVOsdkN.jpg


The "Interactive Mouse Mode" it was used by me as a placeholder name for the state in which Relative Mouse Mode is not enabled (no matter if LAM is enabled or disabled). You seem to call "Interactive Mouse Mode" only the state from point C. I just needed a name for the state that only indicates that Relative Mouse Mode is not on. I suppose that I could use the "Relative Mouse Mode OFF" name instead.
 
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Stringjam

Golden Member
Jun 30, 2011
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I know that everybody are saying that LAM is enabled in Default Mode and you disable it when you press RightAlt+M, but I think that they (and you) are wrong about this. Please read my reasoning (marked IMPORTANT). Modes C and D are the ones in which you can only look ahead, so this state should be considered LAM enabled (and no matter the state of the Ctrl+C toggle).

Look Ahead Mode is characterized by your head tracking the indicator (maybe they should have called it "Look Around Mode." ;) ). This did not exist before LAM was developed. We had Relative Mode and Interactive Mode.

LAM was also developed specifically for joystick users. I've spent a good bit of time with it for that use and I think it has promise for big ship turret / gimbal control. In its current state, I don't think it has much use for mouse users, as Interactive Mode provides much better and less laggy control of the ship + aiming.


The "Interactive Mouse Mode" it was used by me as a placeholder name for the state in which Relative Mouse Mode is not enabled (no matter if LAM is enabled or disabled). You seem to call "Interactive Mouse Mode" only the state from point C. I just needed a name for the state that only indicates that Relative Mouse Mode is not on. I suppose that I could use the "Relative Mouse Mode OFF" name instead.
I have a hard time thinking of it like this because Relative Mode and Interactive Mode are the two primary, long-standing flight modes for M/KB. LAM was not developed for M/KB use, although they seem to indicate that they want to make it viable.

I spent all of my early flight hours when I used strictly M/KB in RM or IM, so I was able to get used to the characteristics of both.

That said - CIG should seriously consider adding indicators for these modes to the HUD, as it is very confusing to new pilots (and old pilots). Especially now that some modes are additive to other modes.
 

Seba

Golden Member
Sep 17, 2000
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We have a mode in which you can only look straight ahead and another mode in which you can also look a little to the left or right or a little up or down (to switch between these 2 modes, you use the RightAlt+M toggle). This behavior is the same no matter the state of the other toggle (Ctrl+C for Relative Mouse Mode). Other things are different depending on the state of this second toggle, but the "view from the cockpit" state is the same (look only straight ahead or with a little freedom left/right/up/down). Which mode would you call "Look Ahead Mode"?

I think that some Star Citizen player said that the Default Mode should be considered as LAM enabled and everybody kept calling this state wrong since then.

But let's get past the names used for the flight modes (Relative Mouse Mode, LAM and so on) and for which state is considered enabled and which state is considered disabled.

Let's say that Ctrl+C is "Toggle A" (with 2 states: orange and apple) and RightAlt+M is "Toggle B" (also with 2 states: pineapple and banana).

There are 4 distinct combinations, with 4 distinct results (labeled A, B, C, D in my post above).
 

Red Storm

Lifer
Oct 2, 2005
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I would say the mode that let's you look at little off in each direction is Look Ahead Mode. I despise it with a passion. It's the first thing I disable. Playing SC has made me really prefer fixed weapons, and it actually helped me get much better at using them, to the point where now even in Elite Dangerous I roll with fixed weapons.
 

Seba

Golden Member
Sep 17, 2000
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I would say the mode that let's you look at little off in each direction is Look Ahead Mode.
Why?

In this mode you are not limited to only look ahead. In the other mode you are limited to only look ahead.

The mode in which you can only look ahead is called... Look Ahead Mode.
 

Red Storm

Lifer
Oct 2, 2005
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Why?

In this mode you are not limited to only look ahead. In the other mode you are limited to only look ahead.

The mode in which you can only look ahead is called... Look Ahead Mode.

Because you can look ahead in a direction before your ship starts to move in that direction. When it's off, you can't look ahead, as soon as you look right or left you move right or left. Your view is fixed center.
 

Seba

Golden Member
Sep 17, 2000
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So to you, to look a little to the left/right or up/down means to look ahead.

But to look straight ahead means that you do not look ahead.
 

Red Storm

Lifer
Oct 2, 2005
14,233
234
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So to you, to look a little to the left/right or up/down means to look ahead.

But to look straight ahead means that you do not look ahead.

In this sense ahead != forward. With look ahead enabled, you can look ahead to the right or left before moving in that direction. That's what I take look ahead to mean, that you can first look in a given direction before starting to move that way.
 
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Seba

Golden Member
Sep 17, 2000
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Maybe my English is not that good, but for "to look ahead" expression I found only the meaning of "to think about future possible events" or literally "to just look in front of you/straight ahead (not to the left or to the right)".

Additionally, all explanations of LAM that I could found were from forums, personal blogs and such. For instance LAM is not explained in the official Arena Commander v 1.1 pdf manual (but the keybinding Right+M for LAM toggle is there). This is why I think that someone misinterpreted the meaning of LAM states and everyone used the wrong term since then.

Picture from that manual:

ocI1nsJ.png


Look at RightAlt key. It has 2 labels:
- EJECT ALT+L (so when you press RAlt+L you eject)
- LOOK AHEAD MODE ALT+M (so when you press RAlt+M you switch to LAM mode)

In this sense ahead != forward. With look ahead enabled, you can look ahead to the right or left before moving in that direction. That's what I take look ahead to mean, that you can first look in a given direction before starting to move that way.
The thing is that even in the in the Default Mode, once you move the mouse past the dead zone (which is not very big, especially for pitch direction), the ship WILL move. If you want to truly be able to first look into another direction and then turn the ship in that direction, you must use Free Look Mode.
 
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Stringjam

Golden Member
Jun 30, 2011
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I think that some Star Citizen player said that the Default Mode should be considered as LAM enabled and everybody kept calling this state wrong since then.


In patch 1.3, CIG enabled LAM as default. The outcry was enormous ("CIG broke Interactive Mode!!!" -- "What happened to Interactive Mode!!??")

They didn't break Interactive Mode, they just made LAM default and a lot of people didn't know how to toggle it off.

Believe me, I spent almost 20 hours flying using a M/KB before LAM was enabled. I know exactly how it feels (awful for M/KB).
 
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Seba

Golden Member
Sep 17, 2000
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They enabled as default a certain state of the LAM toggle (combined with a certain default state for the Relative Mouse Mode toggle). You are calling this Default state as "pure LAM" (a state in which you consider that LAM is enabled and in which Relative Mouse Mode is not activated - we agree on the second part). I am calling it "LAM disabled + Relative Mouse Mode OFF". The RightAlt+M toggle still works to switch between two distinct states, no matter the name used for those states (which is considered enabled and which is considered disabled).

Anyway, LAM state (enabled or disabled) is independent of Ctrl+C state and active (has an effect) in both Ctrl+C states (states with "Relative Mouse Mode" ON or OFF). The combined result is obviously different in each of those 4 possible combinations.

Please read my description of the way that ship behaves in modes A, B, C and D and tell me if you found something incorrect (other than the names that I used for each state).
 
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