Stabilizing 4-bank interleave

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,596
20
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It seems there's a difference between "4-way interleave" and "4-bank interleave."
I already have 4-way enabled by default on my system, but 4-bank interleave is a RAM option in BIOS. Enabling it boosts my memory speed by around 200MB/sec+ according to Sisoft Sandra; and my PCMark2002 Memory score was quite high for a PC2100 computer. However, I'm finding that some programs, particularly 3D games, become crash prone with 4-bank interleave enabled. Is there any way of stabilizing it so that I can use the interleave?
System specs: (one of these days I'll do a system rig thingy:))
T-bird 750@770 (5.5x140)
Shuttle AK35GTR
512MB PC2100 RAM (two sticks, double sided)
 

formulav8

Diamond Member
Sep 18, 2000
7,004
523
126
If your memory can't handle it then you won't be able to enable it and be stable.
 

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,596
20
81
Anything at all that can be done? More voltage? Maybe some tweaks in WPCREDIT?
 

BD231

Lifer
Feb 26, 2001
10,568
138
106
Voltage wont help, if it dosent work then there isent anything you can do accept get higher quality ram or decrease your mem-clock which wouldn't be very smart.
 

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,596
20
81
The modules use Micron on one, and Nanya chips on the other. I thought that those are quality RAM types.:confused:
 

ssanches

Senior member
Feb 7, 2002
461
0
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Jeff, what's the difference between the two?? I mean in the actual working?

I've been using 4-bank interleave and having no problems. One of the requirements was your RAM should be double-sided. Apparently you have that. Are you using aggressive timings?
 

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,596
20
81
The timings are the defauls of the RAM's own SPD. The only thing I'm changing manually there is the bank interleave. There are two other settings below it though that aren't in the RAM's SPD:
DRAM Queue Depth
DRAM Command Rate

I have NO idea what those are for or what they should be set to. I need a really comprehensive RAM or BIOS tweaking guide; maybe that would help.
 

ssanches

Senior member
Feb 7, 2002
461
0
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I think what you are talking about, "4-way interleave" and "4-bank interleave" are one and the same thing. You have to enable it in the bios for it to function. I've only heard about one 4-way setting, and that's 4-way interleave.
 

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,596
20
81
I've seen BIOS's though that have both 4-way interleave and 4-bank interleave options.
Just confirmed it - my Abit KT7A has an option to enable 4-way interleave, and a RAM setting for 2 or 4-bank interleave. It seems that they aren't the same then.
 

ssanches

Senior member
Feb 7, 2002
461
0
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Doh! That's something new I've learnt! :Q What's exactly the difference between the two? Any scoop? Even I'm getting this 4-way craze for a free performance boost. :D
 

MadRat

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
12,010
320
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When you interleave you are using it in halves or quarters. You can four-way interleave two banks of memory, because you can interleave it in two-ways per bank. However, if you populate four banks of memory then it will use each bank of memory as one-way, for a total of a four-way interleave.

Are all of your banks the same? If not that is the source of your problems. Here is an example of four equal banks of memory.

BANK 1: two-sided 128mb (each side = 64mb bank)
BANK 2: single-sided 64mb
BANK 3: single-sided 64mb
BANK 4: empty
 

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,596
20
81
My memory is 2x256MB chips, 128MB per side. Would it matter which sockets they're in? I have DIMM1&2 populated now; 3&4 are empty.
 

MadRat

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
12,010
320
126
No, it doesn't. Each bank is assigned its own logical order, regardless of the slot which it is located.
 

ssanches

Senior member
Feb 7, 2002
461
0
0
Here's some info taken from Adrian Wong's "The Bios optimization guide 6.2:

SDRAM Bank Interleave
Options : 2-Bank, 4-Bank, Disabled
This feature enables you to set the interleave mode of the SDRAM interface.
Interleaving allows banks of SDRAM to alternate their refresh and access cycles. One
bank will undergo its refresh cycle while another is being accessed. This improves
performance of the SDRAM by masking the refresh time of each bank. A closer
examination of interleaving will reveal that since the refresh cycles of all the SDRAM
banks are staggered, this produces a kind of pipelining effect.
If there are 4 banks in the system, the CPU can ideally send one data request to
each of the SDRAM banks in consecutive clock cycles. This means in the first clock
cycle, the CPU will send an address to Bank 0 and then send the next address to
Bank 1 in the second clock cycle before sending the third and fourth addresses to
Banks 2 and 3 in the third and fourth clock cycles respectively. The sequence would
be something like this :-
1. CPU sends address #0 to Bank 0
2. CPU sends address #1 to Bank 1 and receives data #0 from Bank 0
3. CPU sends address #2 to Bank 2 and receives data #1 from Bank 1
4. CPU sends address #3 to Bank 3 and receives data #2 from Bank 2
5. CPU receives data #3 from Bank 3
As a result, the data from all four requests will arrive consecutively from the SDRAM
without any delay in between. But if interleaving was not enabled, the same 4-
address transaction would be roughly like this :-
1. SDRAM refreshes
2. CPU sends address #0 to SDRAM
3. CPU receives data #0 from SDRAM
4. SDRAM refreshes
5. CPU sends address #1 to SDRAM
6. CPU receives data #1 from SDRAM
7. SDRAM refreshes
8. CPU sends address #2 to SDRAM
9. CPU receives data #2 from SDRAM
10. SDRAM refreshes
11. CPU sends address #3 to SDRAM
12. CPU receives data #3 from SDRAM
As you can see, with interleaving, the first bank starts transferring data to the CPU in
the same cycle that the second bank receives an address from the CPU. Without
interleaving, the CPU would send the address to the SDRAM, receive the data
requested and then wait for the SDRAM to refresh before initiating the second data
transaction. That wastes a lot of clock cycles. That's why the SDRAM's bandwidth
increases with interleaving enabled.
However, bank interleaving only works if the addresses requested consecutively are
not in the same bank. If they are, then the data transactions behave as if the banks
were not interleaved. The CPU will have to wait till the first data transaction clears
and that SDRAM bank refreshes before it can send another address to that bank.
Each SDRAM DIMM consists of either 2 banks or 4 banks. 2-bank SDRAM DIMMs use
16Mbit SDRAM chips and are usually 32MB or less in size. 4-bank SDRAM DIMMs, on
the other hand, usually use 64Mbit SDRAM chips though the SDRAM density may be
up to 256Mbit per chip. All SDRAM DIMMs of at least 64MB in size or greater are 4-
banked in nature.
If you are using a single 2-bank SDRAM DIMM, set this feature to 2-Bank. But if you
are using two 2-bank SDRAM DIMMs, you can use the 4-Bank option as well. With 4-
bank SDRAM DIMMs, you can use either interleave options.
Naturally, 4-bank interleave is better than 2-bank interleave so if possible, set it to
4-Bank. Use 2-Bank only if you are using a single 2-bank SDRAM DIMM. Note,
however, that Award (now part of Phoenix Technologies) recommends that SDRAM
bank interleaving be disabled if 16Mbit SDRAM DIMMs are used.

 

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,596
20
81
Thank you. :) I'll read that tomorrow when I'm more awake. Early class.:disgust:
Is there a link for this BIOS optimization guide?
 

Wuzup101

Platinum Member
Feb 20, 2002
2,334
37
91
Hum...that's wierd. I know I have 4 way something on...I think it's 4 way interleave. As far as I know I don't have settings for 4 bank interleave...I'm gonna have to look into that...maybe get the Iwill Turbo Bios.
 

ssanches

Senior member
Feb 7, 2002
461
0
0


<< Thank you. :) I'll read that tomorrow when I'm more awake. Early class.:disgust:
Is there a link for this BIOS optimization guide?
>>



Linky
I'm not sure if it's working. I downloaded the PDF file some months back.

I still feel that both 4-way interleave and 4-bank interleave are the same (based on information in the guide and what I've earlier read)
 

BD231

Lifer
Feb 26, 2001
10,568
138
106
One stick of ram=2-bank interleave
2 or more sticks=4 bank interleave
 

ssanches

Senior member
Feb 7, 2002
461
0
0


<< One stick of ram=2-bank interleave
2 or more sticks=4 bank interleave
>>



Actually I feel what kingofcomputer said is correct. You only need 1 dimm using 64Mbit+ chips to do 4-bank interleaving.
 

ssanches

Senior member
Feb 7, 2002
461
0
0
I just got some more info from the net...

Adrian's RojakpotR

/www.a1-electronics.co.uk

Bank Interleave.
Interleaving lets the banks of memory alternate their refresh and access cycles. One bank will be in refresh cycle while another is being accessed. This setting here improves performance. Since all banks refresh cycles are staggered setting this to interleave smoothes out this process to pipeline effect.

With interleaving the first bank can start sending data to the CPU while the second bank is receiving an address from the CPU. Without Interleaving the CPU sends the address to the memory, received the data back and then waits for the memory to refresh before initiating the next data transfer. So interleaving increases SDRAM memory performance quite a bit.

SDRAM DIMM's are either 2-banks or 4-banks. 2-bank DIMM's use 16Mbit chips and the modules usually are no larger than 32MB, while 4-bank DIMM's usually use 64Mbit+ chips with modules up to 256MB's.

Set to 4-bank interleave for best performance.
 

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,596
20
81
The only thing I see anywhere on those pages concerning stability is:
This is because early 16Mbit SDRAM DIMMs used to have stability problems with bank interleaving. All SDRAM modules can now use bank interleaving without stability problems.

It doesn't seem like I'd have "early" DIMMS - DDR RAM wasn't around in the early days of DRAM. ;)
Even so, how would I find out if I have 16Mbit DIMMS?
 

MadRat

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
12,010
320
126
<<Even so, how would I find out if I have 16Mbit DIMMS?>>

Count the number of memory chips on your stick of RAM. If you have 4 memory chips (2 per side) on your 256MB stick then you have 64Mbit DIMMs. If you have 8 memory chips (4 per side) on your 256MB stick then you have 32Mbit DIMMs. If you have 16 memory chips (8 per side) on your 256MB stick then you have 16Mbit DIMMs.
 

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,596
20
81
Madrat, might want to recheck those conditions you have there. They both say 32Mbit.;)

I'm a bit confused here by Mbit and MB. Are they being used interchangably here?
My RAM has a total of 16 chips per module - that's 16 megabytes per chip.


So the intial question still remains I guess; I know pretty well now what the interleave is, but I still am not sure why it won't work right for this system.
 

ssanches

Senior member
Feb 7, 2002
461
0
0
There's a lot of difference between Mb and MB. To find out the details of your memory chips, read the markings on them and search for it thru Google. You'll get your answer