SS vs. Private Savings

irwincur

Golden Member
Jul 8, 2002
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Just a theoretical comparison here... Two scenrios I'll call them the WalMart Greeter (since every liberal crackpot thinks this is where we are headed), and the other I'll call Mr. Normal. Both are single males to make easy.

WalMart Greeter - makes $25,000, no investments, relies on SS, works 50 years starting at 20.

Total SS payout = $66,388/yr ($15,810/yr in todays dollars - no inflation)

Total private investment 10% of income, 5% from 401k, 5% from SS private @ 10% return = $3.819 million when you retire. $4.489 million at the end of retirement.


Mr. Normal - makes $45,000, no investments, relies on SS, works 50 years starting at 20.

Total SS payout = $84,352/yr ($20,088/yr in tosays dollars - no inflation)

Total private investment 10% of income, 5% from 401k, 5% from SS private @ 10% return = $6.875 million when you retire. $8.041 million at the end of retirement.


Normal couple makes $75,000, with private accounts they are looking at... $11.458 million at retirement.




Do the math, and then tell me that private accounts are stupid. Looks to me like the Dems would like to keep their base poor. Keep their votes. They are fighting a losing battle because eventually people will see through this scam of their. Giving out entitlements will not always guarantee a vote.

So, what is wrong with letting people save THEIR OWN money. After all, every dollar you make is yours, or should be at least.
 

Train

Lifer
Jun 22, 2000
13,577
72
91
www.bing.com
Because the Dems cant bring them selves to trust teh Eval Corporations, or teh Eval Banks. They'd rather put the money under a mattress and pull it out 50 years later when its worth half as much.
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
0
Originally posted by: irwincur
Just a theoretical comparison here... Two scenrios I'll call them the WalMart Greeter (since every liberal crackpot thinks this is where we are headed), and the other I'll call Mr. Normal. Both are single males to make easy.

WalMart Greeter - makes $25,000, no investments, relies on SS, works 50 years starting at 20.

Total SS payout = $66,388/yr ($15,810/yr in todays dollars - no inflation)

Total private investment 10% of income, 5% from 401k, 5% from SS private @ 10% return = $3.819 million when you retire. $4.489 million at the end of retirement.


Mr. Normal - makes $45,000, no investments, relies on SS, works 50 years starting at 20.

Total SS payout = $84,352/yr ($20,088/yr in tosays dollars - no inflation)

Total private investment 10% of income, 5% from 401k, 5% from SS private @ 10% return = $6.875 million when you retire. $8.041 million at the end of retirement.


Normal couple makes $75,000, with private accounts they are looking at... $11.458 million at retirement.




Do the math, and then tell me that private accounts are stupid. Looks to me like the Dems would like to keep their base poor. Keep their votes. They are fighting a losing battle because eventually people will see through this scam of their. Giving out entitlements will not always guarantee a vote.

So, what is wrong with letting people save THEIR OWN money. After all, every dollar you make is yours, or should be at least.

Yeah, right. Tell that to anyone who planned on retiring on their investments in 2001. :roll:

Or any Enron employee.

Your investment gain estimates are wildly optimistic and could be negative if the market goes south as it did in 2001.

Oh, and add this to the problem of funding retirement for people who have worked and paid their share all their lives...

Workers can no longer count on company-funded retirements

DUNDALK, MD.--For 36 years, whenever his boss at now defunct Bethlehem Steel asked, Edmond Groff worked overtime. Double shifts--16-hour workdays--at the company's Sparrows Point plant near Baltimore were common. Sometimes the steelworker drove home, showered, donned fresh clothes, and returned for a third shift. The reason: Bethlehem had a long-standing contract with the union to increase the pensions of steelworkers who put in a lot of overtime. "I worked to get money so my wife and I would have time to be together and travel," says Groff, now 56.

That sacrifice went unrewarded because shortly after Groff retired in 2002, Bethlehem handed off its underfunded pension plan to the federal Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp. But the PBGC backs only standard pension benefits, not those awarded as overtime bonuses. So it cut Groff's pension from $2,520 a month to $1,420, nowhere near enough to cover his mortgage, car payment, and health insurance. Groff had little choice but to go back to work. He was lucky, he says, to find a $12-an-hour job processing insurance claims, a $20-an-hour cut from his steelworker pay. "This was supposed to be the time for us," says Groff. "Now I'm working, but I don't like it."

The great majority of the 44 million Americans who have earned a private pension aren't likely to suffer Groff's plight. Still, with concerns being raised about Social Security's fiscal health, there is also alarm about the second most important source of financial support for retirees--private pensions. In the past several weeks, United Airlines and US Airways have handed off underfunded pension plans to the PBGC, which announced in November it faced a future $23.5 billion shortfall. Analysts now fear a stampede of corporate copycats could threaten millions more pensions. And that would create pressure for a massive taxpayer bailout. "We have a huge pension underfunding problem," says Rep. John Boehner, the Ohio Republican who chairs the House committee that oversees private pensions.

The Bush administration last week unveiled its reform plan, but the few specifics released were quickly questioned. Unusually for Washington, the battle over pension reform will most likely not be fought along party lines. On one side, economic purists say the proposals don't go far enough to stop firms and executives from gambling with workers' pensions. On the other, a bipartisan alliance of executives and union leaders argue that pension providers need far more flexibility and help.

Phaseout. The reason for urgency is clear: Corporate America, which boasted more than 112,000 pension plans in 1985, has since terminated about 80,000 of them. As a result, the share of working Americans earning a pension has dropped from more than 35 percent in 1980 to less than 20 percent today. That decline may even accelerate, as companies say it is no longer in their interest to reward longevity on the job with an old-age stipend. IBM, for example, is winding down its pension plan by limiting all employees who started after Jan. 1, 2005, to a 401(k) savings plan.

The corporate shift from pensions to 401(k)'s usually results in lower payments to retirees. A recent Urban Institute analysis found that fewer than half of today's 30-something workers will collect any 401(k) retirement payments, either because they don't participate in a plan or they cash out early when switching jobs. Because of small corporate contributions and subpar investment returns, the average 30-something who does manage to collect from a 401(k) will get less than $400 a month (in 2003 dollars) on turning 67, the institute predicts. The average 70-year-old pensioner today gets more than twice that.

What's more, remaining pensions are in danger. Corporate and union pensions owe workers $600 billion more than they've set aside. To conserve cash, the PBGC has put ceilings on payouts and limited the kinds of pensions it will guarantee. These limits affect perhaps 100,000 of the 1 million retirees for whom the PBGC is now responsible, ranging from early retirees like Groff to some highly paid pensioners like pilots. Even so, an analysis by the independent Center on Federal Financial Institutions (COFFI) predicts that the PBGC will zero out its bank account in 2020.

Or even sooner. United and US Airways have gained such a price advantage by ditching their pensions that competitors like Delta, which owes workers and retirees about $5 billion, and Northwest, which owes over $3 billion, will probably have to follow suit, say industry experts. "They have no choice," says Vaughn Cordle, a 49-year-old United pilot and CEO of consulting firm AirlineForecasts. "They either terminate their pensions or liquidate." Now, young and midcareer pilots like him can no longer dream of retiring with a $140,000 annual pension. Cordle figures he'll only get the current PBGC maximum for 60-year-olds (the mandatory retirement age for pilots) of $29,648 a year. "Our generation will bear the brunt of overpromised pensions," he says.

It will indeed. If all the major airlines asked the bankruptcy court to free them of their pensions, the PBGC's deficit would probably soar to $100 billion, jeopardizing the pensions of perhaps 4 million Americans, COFFI estimates. Although the PBGC is not technically backed by the federal government, Democrats and Republicans alike say privately that the government would not let it fail. A taxpayer bailout of $100 billion would be America's second biggest, behind that of the savings and loan industry in the 1980s.

Like those of the savings and loans, the financial troubles of the pension system are rooted in laudable corporate intentions undermined by shortsightedness and greed. When the first pensions were launched in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, some firms tried to buy employee loyalty on the cheap, putting insufficient (or even no) money aside to fund them. After a series of spectacular failures, such as Studebaker's 1964 collapse that left more than 4,000 workers with pennies on their pension dollar, Congress passed laws successively tightening the funding rules. Since 1994, firms have been given just five years to make up any gap in their plans.

But Congress made pensions more costly to companies just as changes in the economy and management strategies appeared to reduce the corporate payoff. Executives concluded that pensions encouraged too many bad employees to stay and too many good ones to leave, says Sylvester Schieber, director of research for the benefits consultant Watson Wyatt Worldwide. They replaced traditional plans, which paid 25-year workers a "defined benefit" of, say, 50 percent of their final year's salary, with plans that gave immediate cash or credit for each year worked. Many of these alternatives, such as "cash balance" pensions and "defined contribution" plans such as 401(k)'s, also happened to save employers big money. The average traditional pension costs a company an added 6.6 percent of payroll. Companies typically cap their 401(k) contributions at just 3 percent of a worker's salary. And while older employees often objected to pension terminations, many younger workers preferred a bird in the 401(k) hand to two in the pension bush, especially given the recent wave of layoffs.

Alarmed, Congress began allowing companies to save cash by contributing things like stock or timberland to their pension funds. Congress also let firms count "credits" from previous years' excess contributions, even if those contributions evaporated in the bear market. Pension managers were also given leeway to invest in a broadly diverse portfolio. But they could (and most did) put more than two thirds of their funds in equities, including many of the 1990s' flimsiest dot coms. By comparison, insurance companies that sell annuities must put the vast majority of their investments in safe, low-paying bonds. What's more, Congress let executives use accounting rules to report earnings on invested pension funds as profits and to smooth out estimated gains and losses over a five-year period.

On paper. Gains from the market run-up of the '90s meant firms had to put little or, often, no extra cash in the fund to keep up with rising liabilities, while estimating big future investment gains in their annual reports. Of course, executives who reported better profits typically got big bonuses and fat, guaranteed pensions. And a recent Harvard Business School study of more than 1,000 firms found that companies with poor independent oversight and executives about to exercise their stock options tended to use higher estimates of future pension fund returns than did other companies. A Federal Reserve study also found that investors were so dazzled by the pension-inflated earnings reported by many companies in 2001 that they overpaid for stocks by about 5 percent that year. In fact, pension accounting has now drawn the scrutiny of the Securities and Exchange Commission. Last fall, it asked for records from six major companies as part of a general look at the way pensions affect profits and stock prices.

When the stock market bubble burst, the total value of the pension funds of S&P 500 firms fell from nearly $1.2 trillion in 2000 to $955 billion in 2002, according to an analysis by Credit Suisse First Boston. But what really launched today's crisis was the skyrocketing cost of pensions. Widespread plant closures forced millions of workers into premature retirement, boosting pension payouts, while falling interest rates raised the cost of the bonds that firms needed to buy to cover future pension outlays.

Now, employers and union pension funds are presenting a surprisingly united front, telling Congress that if they are just given a little more time and flexibility--and a little help from the taxpayer--the rebounding stock market, slowly rising interest rates, and a growing economy will finally reverse the pension free fall. "I don't think you should underestimate the potential that asset values may come back and mitigate some of the problem," says James Klein, president of the American Benefits Council, the chief lobbyist for companies that offer pensions.

Companies and unions are backing Bush's plan to allow cash contributions to pensions even when the funds appear fully funded (the current ban aimed to prevent companies from overshielding profits from taxes), so that they can squirrel away money during good times. But both question the plan to raise annual PBGC insurance premiums for financially healthy employers by 60 percent to $30 per worker, and those of employers with troubled pension funds by even more. "We think that the financial hit would lead to an exodus of employers from the pension system," says Alan Reuther, director of legislative affairs for the United Auto Workers.

No easy fix. The PBGC's actuaries doubt the stock market will rebound enough to clear up corporate pension debts. And some economists question whether even the hefty proposed hikes in premiums would be sufficient to clear the PBGC's massive debt or prod firms to fund their plans. Previous attempts to force troubled companies to fund their plans have been undercut by congressional loopholes, notes Richard Ippolito, former chief economist of the PBGC. And Washington lacks the political will to keep firms from risking pension funds in the stock market, he says. Ippolito favors a cheaper method: Dock the pay and benefits of executives who don't fund worker pensions.

Whatever happens, younger workers will have time to adjust to the new retirement reality. But it will be too late for workers like 51-year-old US Airways flight attendant Eileen Zolinas of Pittsburgh. A bankruptcy judge earlier this month OK'd the termination of the airline's pensions, freezing benefits to what Zolinas has earned so far. "I really thought I was going to retire with this company. I would love to be playing shuffleboard in Florida" at 65, Zolinas says. Her experience has taught her kids to set aside their own money for retirement. But, she says, "people my age are pretty much screwed."

All the while the corporate "leaders of industry" continue to inflate their retirement penions, stock options, perks, you name it, while cutting the pension benefits Americans worked for.

How exactly does this younger generation expect people who have worked all their lives and paid their share to survive without the promised benefits of Social Security or company pensions?

Or is the answer that you selfish tightwads simply don't care?

 

Strk

Lifer
Nov 23, 2003
10,197
4
76
Originally posted by: Train
Because the Dems cant bring them selves to trust teh Eval Corporations, or teh Eval Banks. They'd rather put the money under a mattress and pull it out 50 years later when its worth half as much.

Maybe the issue isn't "teh eval corporations," but the fact that the proposal doesn't offer very much?
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: BBond
How exactly does this younger generation expect people who have worked all their lives and paid their share to survive without the promised benefits of Social Security or company pensions?

Or is the answer that you selfish tightwads simply don't care?

First off, lumping SS and a company pension in together doesn't fly. They are independent issues that have their separate issues and problems.

The fact is - we do care - just in a different way than you socialists. We want people to be able to take care of themselves instead of having to rely on someone else - be it the gov't or the big bad EVAL company.
That's the difference - it's the ideology conflict. You want someone else to take care of you, whereas we want people to be able to take care of themselves.

CsG
 

Train

Lifer
Jun 22, 2000
13,577
72
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www.bing.com
Originally posted by: Strk
Originally posted by: Train
Because the Dems cant bring them selves to trust teh Eval Corporations, or teh Eval Banks. They'd rather put the money under a mattress and pull it out 50 years later when its worth half as much.

Maybe the issue isn't "teh eval corporations," but the fact that the proposal doesn't offer very much?

Hes actually right, the propsal isnt wildly optimistic, its right on the money, you just cant carry all your eggs in the same basket. Diversify and you will be just fine.

FACT: you can never find a 40 year period in the US Stock market that has not had an average of at least 10% yearly growth. (Edit: even any 40 year period including the great depression!)

Start investing when your 25, retire at 65 quite nicely, no matter what time period you lived in.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
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The Dems also do not like losing control of that pot of $$
 

irwincur

Golden Member
Jul 8, 2002
1,899
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Your investment gain estimates are wildly optimistic and could be negative if the market goes south as it did in 2001.

With all of the booms and busts the market has averaged over 11%, even including the great depression. To think that the latest bust was the end of the world is nothing more than short sighted. Most intelligent people see a bust as a time to put more money in to ride the wave to the top. Smart financial management is the key.

In terms of 'wildly optimistic' - I don't see how using below average gains could ever be seen as optimistic. Wildly optimistic would be more like 12% or better.


Or any Enron employee.

You libs really like to paint pictures with emotional examples that effect at best .0001% of us. Wow, ENRON, holy crap, that happens to millions of people every single day, the sky is falling. Talk about over pessimistic.

Any smart Enron employee would have had a mixed bag of investments. Actually in terms of the SS debate, their private SS portion would have been private - hence protected from Enron. So, in a way these private accounts provide some insurance from corporate collapse. Even then, the 5% invested into private SS acounts would be worth more than their socialist SS payout would ever be.
 

Train

Lifer
Jun 22, 2000
13,577
72
91
www.bing.com
Originally posted by: irwincur
Your investment gain estimates are wildly optimistic and could be negative if the market goes south as it did in 2001.

With all of the booms and busts the market has averaged over 11%, even including the great depression. To think that the latest bust was the end of the world is nothing more than short sighted. Most intelligent people see a bust as a time to put more money in to ride the wave to the top. Smart financial management is the key.

In terms of 'wildly optimistic' - I don't see how using below average gains could ever be seen as optimistic. Wildly optimistic would be more like 12% or better.
My buddy the financial advisor is managing a fund that has averaged 17% over the last 3 years.
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
0
Originally posted by: Train
Originally posted by: Strk
Originally posted by: Train
Because the Dems cant bring them selves to trust teh Eval Corporations, or teh Eval Banks. They'd rather put the money under a mattress and pull it out 50 years later when its worth half as much.

Maybe the issue isn't "teh eval corporations," but the fact that the proposal doesn't offer very much?

Hes actually right, the propsal isnt wildly optimistic, its right on the money, you just cant carry all your eggs in the same basket. Diversify and you will be just fine.

FACT: you can never find a 40 year period in the US Stock market that has not had an average of at least 10% yearly growth. (Edit: even any 40 year period including the great depression!)

Start investing when your 25, retire at 65 quite nicely, no matter what time period you lived in.

The issue is simple. The equation for saving has always been money + time. There is no time left for those who are nearing retirement age. They aren't, as is erroneously suggested, waiting for someone to take care of them. They paid their share, the highest share paid by any generation, into SS to fund the retirement of their parents. Now it's their kids' turn to fund their retirement.

Just what are people who worked all their lives and paid thousands of dollars they couldn't invest on their own into SS, supposed to do at this late date?

The issue isn't that they are looking for someone to take care of them at all. The issue is that after paying year after year with money taken from their paychecks BEFORE they saw it, they are now told the promised benefit won't be there after it's too late to do anything to fix the problem.

What happens to the generation that was forced to pay their share? Homelessness and Puppy Chow?

 

miketheidiot

Lifer
Sep 3, 2004
11,060
1
0
Originally posted by: irwincur
Just a theoretical comparison here... Two scenrios I'll call them the WalMart Greeter (since every liberal crackpot thinks this is where we are headed), and the other I'll call Mr. Normal. Both are single males to make easy.

WalMart Greeter - makes $25,000, no investments, relies on SS, works 50 years starting at 20.

Total SS payout = $66,388/yr ($15,810/yr in todays dollars - no inflation)

Total private investment 10% of income, 5% from 401k, 5% from SS private @ 10% return = $3.819 million when you retire. $4.489 million at the end of retirement.


Mr. Normal - makes $45,000, no investments, relies on SS, works 50 years starting at 20.

Total SS payout = $84,352/yr ($20,088/yr in tosays dollars - no inflation)

Total private investment 10% of income, 5% from 401k, 5% from SS private @ 10% return = $6.875 million when you retire. $8.041 million at the end of retirement.


Normal couple makes $75,000, with private accounts they are looking at... $11.458 million at retirement.




Do the math, and then tell me that private accounts are stupid. Looks to me like the Dems would like to keep their base poor. Keep their votes. They are fighting a losing battle because eventually people will see through this scam of their. Giving out entitlements will not always guarantee a vote.

So, what is wrong with letting people save THEIR OWN money. After all, every dollar you make is yours, or should be at least.

I've done the math, and not only is the math irrelivant, but it distracts from the real purpose of social security. Social security is INSURANCE in case you get old, disabled, or a family wage earner dies. IT IS NOT, WAS NEVER, AND SHOULD NEVER BE AN INVESTMENT ACCOUNT. It is meant as the income of last resort, not a fund for a person to gamble away in the market. Subjecting it to risk is against its vary nature.
 

irwincur

Golden Member
Jul 8, 2002
1,899
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Just can't talk sense to morons.

Even presenting real numbers based on historical TRUTH is not good enough. They always want proof - WELL HERE IT IS. I don't know about the typical lib, but I am going to invest as much as I can on my own. Then when I am 75 I can laugh as I drive through the SS choked hoods in my new 2052 model year BMW. Can't wait until all of the wanna be hippies and morons come creeping out of their homes to cash their platry SS checks in their broken down Chinese cards.
 

miketheidiot

Lifer
Sep 3, 2004
11,060
1
0
Originally posted by: Train
Because the Dems cant bring them selves to trust teh Eval Corporations, or teh Eval Banks. They'd rather put the money under a mattress and pull it out 50 years later when its worth half as much.

Apparently you have no idea what your talking about. Social security works just like any insurance program. Money paid in is paid out to those collecting. And surplus is invested in treasury bonds (and this is how the government manages to hide some of its debt, since it owes itself money).
 

irwincur

Golden Member
Jul 8, 2002
1,899
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Actually, SS was supposed to be a temporary program to help those clawing their way out of the depression. It was never intended to run for more than a decade, here we are six later funding a sinking ship.


Also, there is no reason current beneficiaries need to lose a major amount of their benefits. The goovernment can take a hit on this. The trillions that will go into the private industry will quickly funnel their way back into government. Every dollar invested in the market is a dollar a company can get for investmenr - meaning jobs, growth, development, etc.. Private SS accounts would in essense be the largest tax cut in the history of the world. And as we all know, once again from history, tax cuts (or large payouts to private firms and people) lead to MASSIVE economic gains. Every single tax cut has paid for itself over the ensuing decade. There is no reason why this also would not.
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
Originally posted by: irwincur


So, what is wrong with letting people save THEIR OWN money. After all, every dollar you make is yours, or should be at least.

I'm not going to argue whether the investments will or won't do better than SS (probably will based on history), but the "THEIR OWN" money is where the current proposed plan (minus a few details as of now) fall short. I hate the idea that I may get to place $1000 to $1300 of MY money in an account and NOT ALL OF IT. I would gladly sign away all of the money I've paid in IF I could place all of my and company contributions in a private account.

I also think that I should be able to take the money out on an early retirement if I retire early. None of this goverment setting the retirement age on my PRIVATE money.

 

miketheidiot

Lifer
Sep 3, 2004
11,060
1
0
Originally posted by: Train
Originally posted by: Strk
Originally posted by: Train
Because the Dems cant bring them selves to trust teh Eval Corporations, or teh Eval Banks. They'd rather put the money under a mattress and pull it out 50 years later when its worth half as much.

Maybe the issue isn't "teh eval corporations," but the fact that the proposal doesn't offer very much?

Hes actually right, the propsal isnt wildly optimistic, its right on the money, you just cant carry all your eggs in the same basket. Diversify and you will be just fine.

FACT: you can never find a 40 year period in the US Stock market that has not had an average of at least 10% yearly growth. (Edit: even any 40 year period including the great depression!)

Start investing when your 25, retire at 65 quite nicely, no matter what time period you lived in.

Unless you invest in enron or worldcom, etc etc and get it in the ass before you retire.
 

miketheidiot

Lifer
Sep 3, 2004
11,060
1
0
Originally posted by: irwincur
Your investment gain estimates are wildly optimistic and could be negative if the market goes south as it did in 2001.

With all of the booms and busts the market has averaged over 11%, even including the great depression. To think that the latest bust was the end of the world is nothing more than short sighted. Most intelligent people see a bust as a time to put more money in to ride the wave to the top. Smart financial management is the key.

In terms of 'wildly optimistic' - I don't see how using below average gains could ever be seen as optimistic. Wildly optimistic would be more like 12% or better.


Or any Enron employee.

You libs really like to paint pictures with emotional examples that effect at best .0001% of us. Wow, ENRON, holy crap, that happens to millions of people every single day, the sky is falling. Talk about over pessimistic.

Any smart Enron employee would have had a mixed bag of investments. Actually in terms of the SS debate, their private SS portion would have been private - hence protected from Enron. So, in a way these private accounts provide some insurance from corporate collapse. Even then, the 5% invested into private SS acounts would be worth more than their socialist SS payout would ever be.

In case you missed it, but most companies "retirement" programs force you to put your money in the company.
 

miketheidiot

Lifer
Sep 3, 2004
11,060
1
0
Originally posted by: Train
Originally posted by: irwincur
Your investment gain estimates are wildly optimistic and could be negative if the market goes south as it did in 2001.

With all of the booms and busts the market has averaged over 11%, even including the great depression. To think that the latest bust was the end of the world is nothing more than short sighted. Most intelligent people see a bust as a time to put more money in to ride the wave to the top. Smart financial management is the key.

In terms of 'wildly optimistic' - I don't see how using below average gains could ever be seen as optimistic. Wildly optimistic would be more like 12% or better.
My buddy the financial advisor is managing a fund that has averaged 17% over the last 3 years.

And many other people have gone bankrupt. If the average is 10%, and some are getting 20%, that means someone is losing out.
 

Darkhawk28

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 2000
6,759
0
0
Originally posted by: irwincur
Just can't talk sense to morons.

Even presenting real numbers based on historical TRUTH is not good enough. They always want proof - WELL HERE IT IS. I don't know about the typical lib, but I am going to invest as much as I can on my own. Then when I am 75 I can laugh as I drive through the SS choked hoods in my new 2052 model year BMW. Can't wait until all of the wanna be hippies and morons come creeping out of their homes to cash their platry SS checks in their broken down Chinese cards.

What sense? This is pure, unadulterated selfishness.... this isn't about "I want to invest my own money". How many will actually do that? Please. It's the me, me, me, now, now, now, instant gratification generation.

Social Security ISN'T AN "ENTITLEMENT", it's an insurance program. That's it, end of discussion.

I know the typical neocon like to rape things and this is just another attempt to do so. The 20%-25% overhead with this program just isn't inviting nor desirable. The current overhead is less than 1% with a large measure of security. With this flim-flam, soon-to-be, scandal-ridden program, there will be millions of Americans left out in the cold.

Oh and the program will only let you choose certain investments of the government's choosing. Hmmm... no conflict of interest there.

Follow the money... who stands to gain the most from this. Wall Street.
 

alent1234

Diamond Member
Dec 15, 2002
3,915
0
0
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: irwincur
Just a theoretical comparison here... Two scenrios I'll call them the WalMart Greeter (since every liberal crackpot thinks this is where we are headed), and the other I'll call Mr. Normal. Both are single males to make easy.

WalMart Greeter - makes $25,000, no investments, relies on SS, works 50 years starting at 20.

Total SS payout = $66,388/yr ($15,810/yr in todays dollars - no inflation)

Total private investment 10% of income, 5% from 401k, 5% from SS private @ 10% return = $3.819 million when you retire. $4.489 million at the end of retirement.


Mr. Normal - makes $45,000, no investments, relies on SS, works 50 years starting at 20.

Total SS payout = $84,352/yr ($20,088/yr in tosays dollars - no inflation)

Total private investment 10% of income, 5% from 401k, 5% from SS private @ 10% return = $6.875 million when you retire. $8.041 million at the end of retirement.


Normal couple makes $75,000, with private accounts they are looking at... $11.458 million at retirement.




Do the math, and then tell me that private accounts are stupid. Looks to me like the Dems would like to keep their base poor. Keep their votes. They are fighting a losing battle because eventually people will see through this scam of their. Giving out entitlements will not always guarantee a vote.

So, what is wrong with letting people save THEIR OWN money. After all, every dollar you make is yours, or should be at least.

Yeah, right. Tell that to anyone who planned on retiring on their investments in 2001. :roll:

Or any Enron employee.

Your investment gain estimates are wildly optimistic and could be negative if the market goes south as it did in 2001.

Oh, and add this to the problem of funding retirement for people who have worked and paid their share all their lives...

Workers can no longer count on company-funded retirements

DUNDALK, MD.--For 36 years, whenever his boss at now defunct Bethlehem Steel asked, Edmond Groff worked overtime. Double shifts--16-hour workdays--at the company's Sparrows Point plant near Baltimore were common. Sometimes the steelworker drove home, showered, donned fresh clothes, and returned for a third shift. The reason: Bethlehem had a long-standing contract with the union to increase the pensions of steelworkers who put in a lot of overtime. "I worked to get money so my wife and I would have time to be together and travel," says Groff, now 56.

That sacrifice went unrewarded because shortly after Groff retired in 2002, Bethlehem handed off its underfunded pension plan to the federal Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp. But the PBGC backs only standard pension benefits, not those awarded as overtime bonuses. So it cut Groff's pension from $2,520 a month to $1,420, nowhere near enough to cover his mortgage, car payment, and health insurance. Groff had little choice but to go back to work. He was lucky, he says, to find a $12-an-hour job processing insurance claims, a $20-an-hour cut from his steelworker pay. "This was supposed to be the time for us," says Groff. "Now I'm working, but I don't like it."

The great majority of the 44 million Americans who have earned a private pension aren't likely to suffer Groff's plight. Still, with concerns being raised about Social Security's fiscal health, there is also alarm about the second most important source of financial support for retirees--private pensions. In the past several weeks, United Airlines and US Airways have handed off underfunded pension plans to the PBGC, which announced in November it faced a future $23.5 billion shortfall. Analysts now fear a stampede of corporate copycats could threaten millions more pensions. And that would create pressure for a massive taxpayer bailout. "We have a huge pension underfunding problem," says Rep. John Boehner, the Ohio Republican who chairs the House committee that oversees private pensions.

The Bush administration last week unveiled its reform plan, but the few specifics released were quickly questioned. Unusually for Washington, the battle over pension reform will most likely not be fought along party lines. On one side, economic purists say the proposals don't go far enough to stop firms and executives from gambling with workers' pensions. On the other, a bipartisan alliance of executives and union leaders argue that pension providers need far more flexibility and help.

Phaseout. The reason for urgency is clear: Corporate America, which boasted more than 112,000 pension plans in 1985, has since terminated about 80,000 of them. As a result, the share of working Americans earning a pension has dropped from more than 35 percent in 1980 to less than 20 percent today. That decline may even accelerate, as companies say it is no longer in their interest to reward longevity on the job with an old-age stipend. IBM, for example, is winding down its pension plan by limiting all employees who started after Jan. 1, 2005, to a 401(k) savings plan.

The corporate shift from pensions to 401(k)'s usually results in lower payments to retirees. A recent Urban Institute analysis found that fewer than half of today's 30-something workers will collect any 401(k) retirement payments, either because they don't participate in a plan or they cash out early when switching jobs. Because of small corporate contributions and subpar investment returns, the average 30-something who does manage to collect from a 401(k) will get less than $400 a month (in 2003 dollars) on turning 67, the institute predicts. The average 70-year-old pensioner today gets more than twice that.

What's more, remaining pensions are in danger. Corporate and union pensions owe workers $600 billion more than they've set aside. To conserve cash, the PBGC has put ceilings on payouts and limited the kinds of pensions it will guarantee. These limits affect perhaps 100,000 of the 1 million retirees for whom the PBGC is now responsible, ranging from early retirees like Groff to some highly paid pensioners like pilots. Even so, an analysis by the independent Center on Federal Financial Institutions (COFFI) predicts that the PBGC will zero out its bank account in 2020.

Or even sooner. United and US Airways have gained such a price advantage by ditching their pensions that competitors like Delta, which owes workers and retirees about $5 billion, and Northwest, which owes over $3 billion, will probably have to follow suit, say industry experts. "They have no choice," says Vaughn Cordle, a 49-year-old United pilot and CEO of consulting firm AirlineForecasts. "They either terminate their pensions or liquidate." Now, young and midcareer pilots like him can no longer dream of retiring with a $140,000 annual pension. Cordle figures he'll only get the current PBGC maximum for 60-year-olds (the mandatory retirement age for pilots) of $29,648 a year. "Our generation will bear the brunt of overpromised pensions," he says.

It will indeed. If all the major airlines asked the bankruptcy court to free them of their pensions, the PBGC's deficit would probably soar to $100 billion, jeopardizing the pensions of perhaps 4 million Americans, COFFI estimates. Although the PBGC is not technically backed by the federal government, Democrats and Republicans alike say privately that the government would not let it fail. A taxpayer bailout of $100 billion would be America's second biggest, behind that of the savings and loan industry in the 1980s.

Like those of the savings and loans, the financial troubles of the pension system are rooted in laudable corporate intentions undermined by shortsightedness and greed. When the first pensions were launched in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, some firms tried to buy employee loyalty on the cheap, putting insufficient (or even no) money aside to fund them. After a series of spectacular failures, such as Studebaker's 1964 collapse that left more than 4,000 workers with pennies on their pension dollar, Congress passed laws successively tightening the funding rules. Since 1994, firms have been given just five years to make up any gap in their plans.

But Congress made pensions more costly to companies just as changes in the economy and management strategies appeared to reduce the corporate payoff. Executives concluded that pensions encouraged too many bad employees to stay and too many good ones to leave, says Sylvester Schieber, director of research for the benefits consultant Watson Wyatt Worldwide. They replaced traditional plans, which paid 25-year workers a "defined benefit" of, say, 50 percent of their final year's salary, with plans that gave immediate cash or credit for each year worked. Many of these alternatives, such as "cash balance" pensions and "defined contribution" plans such as 401(k)'s, also happened to save employers big money. The average traditional pension costs a company an added 6.6 percent of payroll. Companies typically cap their 401(k) contributions at just 3 percent of a worker's salary. And while older employees often objected to pension terminations, many younger workers preferred a bird in the 401(k) hand to two in the pension bush, especially given the recent wave of layoffs.

Alarmed, Congress began allowing companies to save cash by contributing things like stock or timberland to their pension funds. Congress also let firms count "credits" from previous years' excess contributions, even if those contributions evaporated in the bear market. Pension managers were also given leeway to invest in a broadly diverse portfolio. But they could (and most did) put more than two thirds of their funds in equities, including many of the 1990s' flimsiest dot coms. By comparison, insurance companies that sell annuities must put the vast majority of their investments in safe, low-paying bonds. What's more, Congress let executives use accounting rules to report earnings on invested pension funds as profits and to smooth out estimated gains and losses over a five-year period.

On paper. Gains from the market run-up of the '90s meant firms had to put little or, often, no extra cash in the fund to keep up with rising liabilities, while estimating big future investment gains in their annual reports. Of course, executives who reported better profits typically got big bonuses and fat, guaranteed pensions. And a recent Harvard Business School study of more than 1,000 firms found that companies with poor independent oversight and executives about to exercise their stock options tended to use higher estimates of future pension fund returns than did other companies. A Federal Reserve study also found that investors were so dazzled by the pension-inflated earnings reported by many companies in 2001 that they overpaid for stocks by about 5 percent that year. In fact, pension accounting has now drawn the scrutiny of the Securities and Exchange Commission. Last fall, it asked for records from six major companies as part of a general look at the way pensions affect profits and stock prices.

When the stock market bubble burst, the total value of the pension funds of S&P 500 firms fell from nearly $1.2 trillion in 2000 to $955 billion in 2002, according to an analysis by Credit Suisse First Boston. But what really launched today's crisis was the skyrocketing cost of pensions. Widespread plant closures forced millions of workers into premature retirement, boosting pension payouts, while falling interest rates raised the cost of the bonds that firms needed to buy to cover future pension outlays.

Now, employers and union pension funds are presenting a surprisingly united front, telling Congress that if they are just given a little more time and flexibility--and a little help from the taxpayer--the rebounding stock market, slowly rising interest rates, and a growing economy will finally reverse the pension free fall. "I don't think you should underestimate the potential that asset values may come back and mitigate some of the problem," says James Klein, president of the American Benefits Council, the chief lobbyist for companies that offer pensions.

Companies and unions are backing Bush's plan to allow cash contributions to pensions even when the funds appear fully funded (the current ban aimed to prevent companies from overshielding profits from taxes), so that they can squirrel away money during good times. But both question the plan to raise annual PBGC insurance premiums for financially healthy employers by 60 percent to $30 per worker, and those of employers with troubled pension funds by even more. "We think that the financial hit would lead to an exodus of employers from the pension system," says Alan Reuther, director of legislative affairs for the United Auto Workers.

No easy fix. The PBGC's actuaries doubt the stock market will rebound enough to clear up corporate pension debts. And some economists question whether even the hefty proposed hikes in premiums would be sufficient to clear the PBGC's massive debt or prod firms to fund their plans. Previous attempts to force troubled companies to fund their plans have been undercut by congressional loopholes, notes Richard Ippolito, former chief economist of the PBGC. And Washington lacks the political will to keep firms from risking pension funds in the stock market, he says. Ippolito favors a cheaper method: Dock the pay and benefits of executives who don't fund worker pensions.

Whatever happens, younger workers will have time to adjust to the new retirement reality. But it will be too late for workers like 51-year-old US Airways flight attendant Eileen Zolinas of Pittsburgh. A bankruptcy judge earlier this month OK'd the termination of the airline's pensions, freezing benefits to what Zolinas has earned so far. "I really thought I was going to retire with this company. I would love to be playing shuffleboard in Florida" at 65, Zolinas says. Her experience has taught her kids to set aside their own money for retirement. But, she says, "people my age are pretty much screwed."

All the while the corporate "leaders of industry" continue to inflate their retirement penions, stock options, perks, you name it, while cutting the pension benefits Americans worked for.

How exactly does this younger generation expect people who have worked all their lives and paid their share to survive without the promised benefits of Social Security or company pensions?

Or is the answer that you selfish tightwads simply don't care?



if you had saved for 30 years and retired in 2001 you would still have more money than if you rely on SS. And there is no rule that you have to pull out all your funds in a down market. You pull out what you need on a monthly basis and then the rest of your portfolio grows as the market rebounds.

The reason corporate officers have retirement money and unionized workers don't is because the corporate people have 401k's which are real cash in the bank legally bound to them. Union pensions are an IOU with little real money behind it.
 

miketheidiot

Lifer
Sep 3, 2004
11,060
1
0
Originally posted by: irwincur
Just can't talk sense to morons.

Even presenting real numbers based on historical TRUTH is not good enough. They always want proof - WELL HERE IT IS. I don't know about the typical lib, but I am going to invest as much as I can on my own. Then when I am 75 I can laugh as I drive through the SS choked hoods in my new 2052 model year BMW. Can't wait until all of the wanna be hippies and morons come creeping out of their homes to cash their platry SS checks in their broken down Chinese cards.

If you want to talk to a moron just talk into the mirror. Averages don't mean sh!t because they are averages. Some do much better than average, many do far worse. I'm glad you showed your real motoivation though. Greed$$$
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
0
Originally posted by: irwincur
Just can't talk sense to morons.

Even presenting real numbers based on historical TRUTH is not good enough. They always want proof - WELL HERE IT IS. I don't know about the typical lib, but I am going to invest as much as I can on my own. Then when I am 75 I can laugh as I drive through the SS choked hoods in my new 2052 model year BMW. Can't wait until all of the wanna be hippies and morons come creeping out of their homes to cash their platry SS checks in their broken down Chinese cards.

I'd like to know where all the hatred towards working Americans who paid their share all their lives comes from. People who were forced to pay thousands per year into a system they were told would provide a certain benefit when they retired at a certain age.

I really would like an explanation of the hatred and contempt you express for them.

 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
0
Originally posted by: Train
Originally posted by: irwincur
Your investment gain estimates are wildly optimistic and could be negative if the market goes south as it did in 2001.

With all of the booms and busts the market has averaged over 11%, even including the great depression. To think that the latest bust was the end of the world is nothing more than short sighted. Most intelligent people see a bust as a time to put more money in to ride the wave to the top. Smart financial management is the key.

In terms of 'wildly optimistic' - I don't see how using below average gains could ever be seen as optimistic. Wildly optimistic would be more like 12% or better.
My buddy the financial advisor is managing a fund that has averaged 17% over the last 3 years.

And that didn't even make up for the losses from the preceding 3 years.

 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
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Since no one else has pointed this out, please explain to me how a Walmart greeter (with a family maybe?) can save 10% of their income. It's not going to happen.

But why should I worry? I plan on saving more than enough to retire comfortably, so fvck everyone else, right?

Edit: I dislike SS and am all in favor of private savings...if it can work out. But I'm not a slave to ideas that aren't complete like some of you, apparently.