• Guest, The rules for the P & N subforum have been updated to prohibit "ad hominem" or personal attacks against other posters. See the full details in the post "Politics and News Rules & Guidelines."

Discussion Squeezing the APU Zen2 refresh in the APU Zen 3 line-up, Why??

Kedas

Senior member
Dec 6, 2018
262
213
86
So they really going to put the 4700U APU refresh inside the 5000 series line-up.

Why??
The die size will be a little bigger for Zen3 due to extra cache but why would you start a new lineup of products that is worse that what you already have and give it a number like it belongs to the same series while we know it's not.
What is wrong with the number 4750U, 4850U for your refresh??

It's not like they made the 3800X -> 3800XT Zen2 refresh suddenly the 5700X because it fits about there depending on your use. (I hope I didn't gave marketing new ideas!)

There will always be older products that can be valued on the scale of the new line-up, it doesn't mean you have to rename them and put them IN the new line-up!
 

HurleyBird

Platinum Member
Apr 22, 2003
2,290
711
136
It's Nvidia levels of scumbaginess. Shame on AMD if they go through with this. They like to market themselves as consumer friendly and ethical, but this scheme is the antithesis of all that. Tech enthusiasts can remember "skip the odd ones," but the naming is literally devised to trick everyone else into thinking they're buying a more powerful product than they actually are.

I wouldn't mind having Lucienne in the 5000 series if the naming is done in such a way that a normal person can tell that there's a difference between between Lucienne and Cezanne products.
 

Gideon

Golden Member
Nov 27, 2007
1,264
2,375
136
I agree that it's an issue for most consumers, but I still think that adding a letter it will not help, they will still buy the bigger number.

And using <5500 for Zen2 and >5500 for Zen3 will also not help, as some Zen2 configurations (cores/threads, base/boost frequency, TDP, cooling) would be faster than some Zen3 configurations.
The most obvious thing I would have done (and should have done already with the Picasso 3xxxU series) is add a 50 to the model number.

e.g: 4800U -> 4850U

The problem with this approach is that they already named the PRO versions with 50 in the end for absolutely no reason, so they can't do that. The other one why the continue to do this is that OEMs push for new model numbers constantly (so that their new models look better).

Even with the 5xxx series it would still better if Lucenne would be, say 5800U and Cezanne would be 5850U.

Anyway IMHO AMD should have drawn a line in the sand with the desktop 5xxx series (why did they even skip 4xxxX otherwise?)
No zen 2 product should be in the 5xxx series, period. However which way they name them. Unfortunately they didn't go that route.
 

uzzi38

Golden Member
Oct 16, 2019
1,520
2,891
106
Exactly because the die size is larger and demand for AMD laptops is rising. Cezanne is likely an extra 10% or so in die space, which is a significant amount extra volume.

Worth noting that Lucienne will only be used for -U laptops. There are no -H Lucienne devices. So AMD are also trying to play off the idea that Zen 2 is "good enough" for thin and light devices where more gaming-style devices will have access to Cezanne for best performance. The 16MB L3 of Cezanne will come in more handy to that end also.

As for naming scheme - OEMs are the ones who would push for 5000-series naming. They pretty much demand yearly refreshes to naming schemes.
 

coercitiv

Diamond Member
Jan 24, 2014
4,307
5,510
136
What is wrong with the number 4750U, 4850U for your refresh??
As @uzzi38 already mentioned, the problem is OEMs.

The one thing that is borderline acceptable about Lucienne is they're bumping up performance by enabling more silicon at the same price point. Coupled with Cezanne being on the same node, the resulting product offering is quite decent.
  • on the CPU side you get SMT enabled
  • on the GPU side you get roughly 30% higher performance through a combination of ~20% higher clocks and 1 extra CU enabled per SKU tier
The bad part is I'm expecting 5800U to make the 5700U look quite silly considering the better core and double the L3. The 5600U will be a similar story, essentially superior to 5700U in most common CPU tasks.

I'll be very curious to see a Vcore comparison between Cezanne and Luciennce though.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Tlh97 and uzzi38

Kedas

Senior member
Dec 6, 2018
262
213
86
They better hope that the 5600U zen3 isn't faster than the 5700U Zen2 otherwise it will backfire big time!
I already did hear someone saying "but that is deception!"
(Can you imagine a 'free upgrade' promotion from 5600U to 5700U and you get less)
 

teejee

Senior member
Jul 4, 2013
361
199
116
They better hope that the 5600U zen3 isn't faster than the 5700U Zen2 otherwise it will backfire big time!
I already did hear someone saying "but that is deception!"
(Can you imagine a 'free upgrade' promotion from 5600U to 5700U and you get less)
I assume 5600u will be faster in certain single threaded tasks at least.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Tlh97

Hitman928

Diamond Member
Apr 15, 2012
3,493
3,758
136
Yeah, I really don't like the mixing Zen generations product names like that. If it was like Intel refreshes the last few years then it wouldn't be a big deal because there wasn't much of a difference between generations architecture wise, but there is a big difference between Zen2 and Zen3. I know it's pressure from OEMs that leads to this, but I wish AMD came up with a better way of distinguishing which SKU is which generation.
 
  • Like
Reactions: beginner99

scineram

Member
Nov 1, 2020
121
95
61
Exactly because the die size is larger and demand for AMD laptops is rising. Cezanne is likely an extra 10% or so in die space, which is a significant amount extra volume.

Worth noting that Lucienne will only be used for -U laptops. There are no -H Lucienne devices. So AMD are also trying to play off the idea that Zen 2 is "good enough" for thin and light devices where more gaming-style devices will have access to Cezanne for best performance. The 16MB L3 of Cezanne will come in more handy to that end also.

As for naming scheme - OEMs are the ones who would push for 5000-series naming. They pretty much demand yearly refreshes to naming schemes.
Excuses. Am still disappointed in them.
 
Apr 30, 2020
67
159
66
AMD Marketing:
- Let's name our Zen 1 mobile chips "Ryzen 2000 series, because they have some slight improvements over Zen 1 desktop chips, but aren't quite full Zen+ cores. It'll be fine, since you can just look at "mobile" as a completely different product line"
- Let's make our desktop APUs follow the mobile naming scheme, messing everything up and making the whole product stack very confusing.
- We're going to make Zen 3 Desktop chips skip a generation name to re-synchronize the mobile/desktop naming
- Just kidding, we're now going to immediately mess that up. Instead of just implementing a slight number revision indicating an updated product (ex. Ryzen 4790u), we're going to intermix Zen 2 and 3 mobile chips under the Ryzen 5000 banner so absolutely no one knows exactly what they're buying unless they pull up a spreadsheet of the various cores attached to a particular model number.

This nonsense is mind boggling. Remember when a new architecture got a new CPU name? Pentium 3s were Pentium 3s. Pentium 4s were Pentium 4s. Athlon 64s were Athlon 64s, Phenoms were Phenoms, Phenom IIs were Phenom IIs.

The FTC needs to beat AMD and Intel senseless for their CPU marketing name nonsense. Maybe once AMD formally announces these CPUs I'll file a complaint with the FTC.
 

fusionTi

Junior Member
Sep 25, 2020
5
16
41
This nonsense is mind boggling. Remember when a new architecture got a new CPU name? Pentium 3s were Pentium 3s. Pentium 4s were Pentium 4s. Athlon 64s were Athlon 64s, Phenoms were Phenoms, Phenom IIs were Phenom IIs.
Pentium 4s were not just Pentium 4s. Prescott is a completely different architecture/core than Northwood was. Both were terrible if that's what you meant, whereas all Ryzen 5000 are quite good.
 

blckgrffn

Diamond Member
May 1, 2003
7,714
931
126
www.teamjuchems.com
Let us pour one out for the AMD Phenom II 840, which was really just an Athlon II x4 Propus but called a Phenom II for "branding."


This is very much like the Ice Lake/Comet Lake issues with 10th Gen Intel Mobile chips. Very annoying as a customer.
 
Last edited:

Thunder 57

Golden Member
Aug 19, 2007
1,633
1,660
136
Pentium 4s were not just Pentium 4s. Prescott is a completely different architecture/core than Northwood was. Both were terrible if that's what you meant, whereas all Ryzen 5000 are quite good.
Northwood faired pretty well once it got a faster FSB and dual channel DDR. Now Willamette, that was a disaster.
 

moinmoin

Platinum Member
Jun 1, 2017
2,439
3,043
106
Geekbench has Cezanne 5800U ST nearly 38% above 4800U ST:

Considering there will be no SMT-disabled chips with the above increase Renoir's Luciennes slot in pretty well between the Cezannes.
 

NeoLuxembourg

Senior member
Oct 10, 2013
755
208
116
I wouldn't mind having Lucienne in the 5000 series if the naming is done in such a way that a normal person can tell that there's a difference between between Lucienne and Cezanne products.
"Normal" people don't know what Lucienne or Cezanne mean, something in the naming would not help. As long as the price/performance is correct, this sounds like a great solution to give customers more choice.
 

Gideon

Golden Member
Nov 27, 2007
1,264
2,375
136
But it’s not. Zen 3 chips with lower numbers will destroy higher numbered Zen 2 chips.
Well "destroy" is a bit of a hyperbole for 10-20% better ST performance, with two systems being otherwise equal it will be noticeable but not to all and not in all conditions.

It is still very anti-consumer behavior though (there are plenty of better ways to solve this, add a letter if you must, if OEMs prss for the 5xxx series name), I kind of hoped they'll change it before release, but it doesn't seem to be the case
 

NeoLuxembourg

Senior member
Oct 10, 2013
755
208
116
It is still very anti-consumer behavior though (there are plenty of better ways to solve this, add a letter if you must, if OEMs prss for the 5xxx series name), I kind of hoped they'll change it before release, but it doesn't seem to be the case
I agree that it's an issue for most consumers, but I still think that adding a letter it will not help, they will still buy the bigger number.

And using <5500 for Zen2 and >5500 for Zen3 will also not help, as some Zen2 configurations (cores/threads, base/boost frequency, TDP, cooling) would be faster than some Zen3 configurations.
 

chrisjames61

Senior member
Dec 31, 2013
721
443
136
"Normal" people don't know what Lucienne or Cezanne mean, something in the naming would not help. As long as the price/performance is correct, this sounds like a great solution to give customers more choice.
I agree with this. Only a handful of people on tech sites like this understand these names. Your average computer user only knows what a "I7" is. They have no clue about different generations.
 

Gideon

Golden Member
Nov 27, 2007
1,264
2,375
136
In the end it's required to look at specific benchmarks and reviews anyway when purchasing something new.
Yes reviews should be read, but it's not always trivial to find good ones if you know nothing of the subject (if you google "Processor X vs Processor Y" you'll be directed to userbench for example) and the reality is people don't actually tend to do this all that much. Tech-enthusiast usually read more than most, but it certainly isn't a norm.

Now on the other hand, if you DO google for reviews, it's quite easy to see whether the laptop model itself is new rather than the processor model inside it. So I fail to see hot the series number helps things.

Average consumers do not really care about what is Zen2/Zen3.
Yes they don't. They might care a bit more about the 19% Single-Theraded IPC loss, if they knew (same as Ivy Bridge to Skylake). I agree that it won't change the user experience as much as some think, but I fail to see how this somehow is a good move that needs defending.
 

NeoLuxembourg

Senior member
Oct 10, 2013
755
208
116
I agree that it won't change the user experience as much as some think, but I fail to see how this somehow is a good move that needs defending.
It's about choice.

If you have more SKUs, the OEMs will have more products to sell and the consumer will have more options to choose from.

But OEMs will not create new products based on "old" Zen2 4000 series, so having an Zen2 "refresh" will increase the SKUs for the 5000 series and give you more to choose from, specially in the lower price bracket.

Would it be better if AMD would release multiple Zen3 dies instead of making Zen2 refreshes? Yes! But if the alternative is to only have a single die, I will go with the Zen2 refresh.
 

coercitiv

Diamond Member
Jan 24, 2014
4,307
5,510
136
I agree that it won't change the user experience as much as some think, but I fail to see how this somehow is a good move that needs defending.
It's not a good move without the appropriate context: end users care about a combination of performance, power, availability and price. As long as AMD manages to fit Lucienne in a way that makes sense through a combination of higher performance and competitive pricing over Renoir, they get away with just a frown from me. It doesn't smell 100% right, but if I see SMT & 20%+ extra GPU performance for the same price that Renoir came with, I can't really complain for now.

Things will get complicated with Zen 4 though, as moving to a next gen node would make Zen 3 look very bad in 6000 series, so I hope they thread lightly with this tactic.
 

ASK THE COMMUNITY