Spoke too soon...decided mirrorless is not for me (yet)

CptObvious

Platinum Member
Mar 5, 2004
2,501
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In several other threads I mentioned I was selling my 5D and lenses and going mirrorless. I did it and bought the X100 last week. Well, it's going back for a refund, and surprise, I'm going back to DSLR. My main reason for selling the 5D was size (wanting to carry my camera to more social functions without being the guy with the "big camera."). The X100 seemed to be the perfect mix of smaller size, fast lens and large sensor. The jpegs were beautiful and it was a beauty to hold.

Sadly, the Achilles heel of the X100 (and most mirrorless cameras, including the NEX 5N and 7) is its autofocus. It uses a contrast-detection AF used in point-and-shoots rather than phase-detection AF used in DSLRs. In low light, its accuracy of focus is wildly hit or miss, requiring you to focus multiple times using a variety of tools (distance scale, EVF). It has continuous AF for moving subjects but it's implemented backwards - instead of tracking the subject after pressing AF lock, it tracks *until* AF lock is pressed. Focusing on still subjects is consistent with some practice, but that's little consolation knowing that's what you're limited to.

I bought the hype with mirrorless image quality but forgot there's more to a camera than its sensor. Until the CD-AF tech improves or more mirrorless cams have phase detect, it's back to DSLR for me. I've decided to back to basics with a small DSLR (Nikon D5100), kit lens and 35mm 1.8. This is close to what I had when starting back up with photography (D3100). Three cameras and about a dozen lenses later, it's like coming full circle.
 

JohnnyRebel

Senior member
Feb 7, 2011
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In several other threads I mentioned I was selling my 5D and lenses and going mirrorless. I did it and bought the X100 last week. Well, it's going back for a refund, and surprise, I'm going back to DSLR. My main reason for selling the 5D was size (wanting to carry my camera to more social functions without being the guy with the "big camera."). The X100 seemed to be the perfect mix of smaller size, fast lens and large sensor. The jpegs were beautiful and it was a beauty to hold.

Sadly, the Achilles heel of the X100 (and most mirrorless cameras, including the NEX 5N and 7) is its autofocus. It uses a contrast-detection AF used in point-and-shoots rather than phase-detection AF used in DSLRs. In low light, its accuracy of focus is wildly hit or miss, requiring you to focus multiple times using a variety of tools (distance scale, EVF). It has continuous AF for moving subjects but it's implemented backwards - instead of tracking the subject after pressing AF lock, it tracks *until* AF lock is pressed. Focusing on still subjects is consistent with some practice, but that's little consolation knowing that's what you're limited to.

I bought the hype with mirrorless image quality but forgot there's more to a camera than its sensor. Until the CD-AF tech improves or more mirrorless cams have phase detect, it's back to DSLR for me. I've decided to back to basics with a small DSLR (Nikon D5100), kit lens and 35mm 1.8. This is close to what I had when starting back up with photography (D3100). Three cameras and about a dozen lenses later, it's like coming full circle.

Captain,

Thanks for taking us on this journey with you. We all learned some and we all feel your pain. I don't know how much you considered the Nikon 1 (I know we're all disappointed with the smaller sensor) but Nikon did implement phase detect AF and it really leaves its competition in the dust in AF. Also, from all reports it's sensor really over-performs.

Just a thought -- remember Adorama's 30 day no-questions-asked return policy.

Good fortune with your photography.

JR
 

Gintaras

Golden Member
Dec 28, 2000
1,892
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but Nikon did implement phase detect AF and it really leaves its competition in the dust in AF.

"Nikon did implement phase detect AF"
Only thing Nikon didn't do yet for photographers wannabee's like JohnnyRebel, to "implement" in their cameras "Instant Masterpiece" button.

If Nikon did it, Ken Rockwell and JohnnyRebel would be happiest people on Earth...
But, wait...who would read then Ken Rockwell's blog, if Nikon did it? JohnnyRebel?
 

JohnnyRebel

Senior member
Feb 7, 2011
762
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"Nikon did implement phase detect AF"
Only thing Nikon didn't do yet for photographers wannabee's like JohnnyRebel, to "implement" in their cameras "Instant Masterpiece" button.

If Nikon did it, Ken Rockwell and JohnnyRebel would be happiest people on Earth...
But, wait...who would read then Ken Rockwell's blog, if Nikon did it? JohnnyRebel?

grow up. Are you really going to hijack a thread just to follow my comments? Seriously?

JR
 
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Munky

Diamond Member
Feb 5, 2005
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You could get a Sony Nex-7 with the phase detect adapter for A mount lenses.

Which would give him something that looks ridiculous and clunky, cost more than a entry-level DSLR setup, and defeat the whole purpose of going mirrorless.
 

JohnnyRebel

Senior member
Feb 7, 2011
762
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Here's Thom Hogan on the V1 Focus

Focus
As I noted in my J1 review, the Nikon 1's autofocus system is quite good. Very DSLR-like in most aspects, including speed and tracking ability. In the mirrorless realm, there really isn't anything that matches the Nikon 1's focusing. Some Olympus/Panasonic m4/3 camera/lens combinations can acquire focus almost as fast as the Nikon 1 models, but they can't track motion like the J1/V1 can.

This is the result of phase detect sensors being built into the imaging sensor, coupled with the high frame rate of the sensor, plus all the computational horsepower that Nikon has stuffed into the camera. Certainly in bright light you might be fooled into thinking you're shooting with a DSLR (assuming you're out of the default settings, as I note above). Focus acquisition is swift and focus tracking good (typically on the D3100/D5100 level; in a few cases, better). With one exception: you need a subject that has contrast in it. It appears that the focus system on the Nikon 1 tries to confirm that it found focus by looking at contrast information. If you don't have any contrast under the area the camera is focusing on (for instance, the side of a dark ship), all bets are off. Obviously, this problem is bigger in low light with non-contrasty subjects (think black cow at dawn). But in good light with subjects that have contrast in them, I'd characterize the focus as DSLR-like. Not D3s-like, but certainly in the realm of DSLR expectations.

Side note: the 10-100mm in AF-C seems to have the tendency to do that "one last step out and back" focus thing that many contrast-based systems. The lens is eerily silent (both in focus and zoom), but I found that with quick moving subjects the 30-110mm was the better choice simply because of that little momentary jerk at the end of focus operations--the 30-110mm had far less tendency to do this (typically only in low light/contrast). Another oddity about the 10-100mm: if you unmount the lens without powering down, it stays extended.

The V1 has more accessible focus settings than the J1, as it devotes a button on the Direction pad to focus, which gets you to the AF-A, AF-S, AF-C, and Manual Focus options quickly. The Auto Area, Single point, and subject tracking AF-area modes are in the menu system, though, so full control is a button pressing, menu navigating dance. AF-A works better on a Nikon 1 than it does on most low-end Nikon DSLRs, which is to say that the pause before the camera decides to switch from AF-S to AF-C when it detects moving subjects is faster. Still, I don't think it's the right choice.

Which brings us to birds in flight (BIF). I had ample opportunity to try the V1 with a wide variety of shore birds in New Zealand. That means close in, fast moving birds. Indeed, I had a lot more trouble finding and framing them as they whizzed by me than the camera did finding focus. However, as with the Nikon DSLRs, getting a high hit rate of in-focus (or at least acceptably focused) images means spending some time fiddling with settings. AF-A tended to not acquire focus fast enough in this test, but once acquired, it tended to hold it (at least as long as I could track the bird reasonably well--again, these birds were quite close and moving fast). I had better success with acquisition using AF-C, though slightly worse tracking, especially when I used Single point. Surprisingly, cluttered backgrounds didn't tend to throw the Nikon 1 off focus any more than they do with the Nikon DSLRs (it will happen from time to time, but if you've set everything right and are really following the bird steadily, the camera won't tend to focus to the background).

(picture not copied, see article link @ bottom)


A tough challenge for any camera. Fast moving bird close in and changing direction. Busy background just behind it.





Single point is a little frustrating at first, as you have press the OK button to get control of the point. But once you've done that just use the Direction pad to move the focus point. One nice touch that BIF shooters will like is that you can roll the Direction pad wheel to move the focus point left and right very quickly. Unfortunately, Nikon cancels the Single point movement when you take a picture or the meter times out, so you're going to be hitting the OK button a lot.
Subject tracking is tricky. In theory, it should track what was originally in the (Single point-like) box. I've found Subject tracking works exceptionally well on subject motion towards and away from the camera, less so on side-to-side, slightly diagonal-to-the-camera motion.

I still have some work to do to completely assess what focus settings work best in which situations, but the one thing I missed most was the presence of an AF On button. You can assign the AE-L/AF-L button to AF lock only, but that's sort of the opposite of what I really want.

I'm very convinced that I can treat a V1 like a DSLR in most respects: right settings, steady follow of the subject, and sometimes a bit of prefocus and AF sensor moving get me what I want. Indeed, the V1 was so much like a DSLR in this respect, I really missed not having an AF-On button and having the ability to switch all the focus parameters by external control.

The next question tends to be focus for video. As with the J1, I'd call the V1 respectable. Better than most Nikon DSLRs in tracking focus in video, but not as good as some dedicated camcorders (especially true of the lens that's designed for video, the 10-100mm). That's good, because manual focus isn't really an option with the V1. Manual focus is controlled by the dial around the Direction pad and there's no focus aid available other than zoom. The EVF is basically a VGA-level screen: even with zoom it's a bit too coarse to make out fine focus detail. This camera needs a peaking focus aid.
Overall, focus performance wasn't something that concerned me with the V1. It would have been nice to have more direct control over the focus system, but I learned to live with what control I do have.

I would read the whole article, there are some things he does not like.

http://www.sansmirror.com/cameras/nikon-v1-review.html

JR
 
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Cattykit

Senior member
Nov 3, 2009
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Wait until in-sensor phase detection AF matures. And, try GH2. GH2 is far faster than X100.