Speedy YOU!

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May 11, 2008
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I have difficulty with accepting his way of calculation. I wonder if he first adjusted all movement in different directions into a single displacement vector. I doubt it by his choice of words.

On a side-note. Everybody wants to be on a spaceship. I have news for you, you already are. You have a propulsion system, Several separate shields.

A gravity powered shield that removes large physical objects such as meteorites
(Jupiter). A secondary gravity powered shield(mars).
And then the tertiary shields way out there (Uranus, Neptune, Saturn).

A first primary shield to protect you from interstellar radiation and energized particles that can not be captured by the gravity shields. (The solar wind.).
A secondary shield to protect you from the the influence of the primary radiation shield(The earth magnetic field shielding against the solar wind).
A power source : The sun. ( combined with the gravitation pull of the planets). A stabilizer (The moon).

The solar system itself is what you want. Better be good for the planet. :thumbsup:
 

Sunny129

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Nov 14, 2000
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I have difficulty with accepting his way of calculation. I wonder if he first adjusted all movement in different directions into a single displacement vector. I doubt it by his choice of words.
i doubt he used vector addition as well. i readily admit that he leaves out quite a few variations in net velocities. for instance, the angular velocity caused by the rotation of the earth combined with the angular velocity of the earth orbiting the sun yields a net velocity for an observer on the earth's equator that varies between the maximum value of ~70,400 mi/h that he mentions in the video, and a minimum velocity of ~68,320 mi/h that he doesn't mention in the video. note that this is only the velocity of an observer on the earth's equator with respect to the sun.

likewise, he speaks of only one velocity of the earth with respect to the Milkyway Galaxy. but just as in the situation above, the angular velocity of the earth as it orbits the solar system combined with the velocity of the solar system as it orbits the Milkyway results in a net velocity that again oscillates between a minimum and a maximum value. note that this is only the velocity of the earth with respect to the core of the Milkyway Galaxy.

but what specifically is it about his method that you have difficulty accepting? is it the final summation of velocities he does toward the end of the video? if so, i also disagree with that method. in reality, he's not summing velocities - rather he is only summing speeds at that point. and he is summing speeds that do not yield a very accurate velocity of the earth or an earthling observer with respect to the center of the galaxy due to the fact that all of those calculated speeds rarely, if ever, have the same exact direction. in other words, depending on the location of an observer on the earth's equator as it rotates, the location of the earth in its orbit about the sun, and the location of the solar system in its orbit about the galaxy, the net velocity is more than likely going to be a combination of sums and differences of speeds due to their varying directions, and not just a sum of the absolute values of all the calculated speeds.

that being said, i think he still comes up with a fairly accurate representation of our velocity around the center of our galaxy. the angular velocity of an equatorial observer with respect to the center of the earth and the angular velocity of the earth around the sun is insignificant in comparison to the both angular velocity of the solar system around the galaxy and the velocity of the solar system as it travels above and below the plane of the galaxy. if we were outside the Milkyway looking in, velocities induced by the earth's rotation and orbit would hardly be noticeable and contribute a minimal amount of accuracy to our actual velocity as were move through the galaxy. in other words, his roundabout calculation of ~575,000 mi/h is probably fairly accurate, give or take a certain margin of error that might be in the thousands of milers per hour.

i really don't care to comment on his ideas regarding the speed of the galaxy itself through the universe. while i suppose its possible to calculate the speed of the galaxy as it plows through the interstellar medium, there is certainly no way to calculate its speed relative to a body that is absolutely stationary with respect to the universe - there is no such thing, and there is no such concept.
 

Biftheunderstudy

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Aug 15, 2006
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Well, there sort of is. If we look at the CMB (not just the ones in all the pretty pictures, but the actual raw data) its full of polarizations. Meaning, we are seeing Doppler shifts of the CMB photons as we travel relative to them. We can then decompose all of the different polarizations to get our velocities in all the different directions. When all of these polarizations are removed, you can then look at the small variations and infer things about the universe, etc.

So, in short, while we don't have a real stationary point to reference, Einstein was wrong, if we looked out the window of a space ship in reality there is a way we can determine how fast we are moving by analyzing the polarization of the CMB.
 

WildHorse

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Jun 29, 2003
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I have difficulty with accepting his way of calculation. I wonder if he first adjusted all movement in different directions into a single displacement vector. I doubt it by his choice of words.

<cut>:thumbsup:

Yes, you have a point.

The whole thing is for fun, and is not attempting to claim a scientifically accurate speed measurement.

Several times he says things indicating it's all a hypothetical thought exercise, and not a scientific measurement of the various speeds. I hope you can enjoy it on that basis.
 

Sunny129

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Nov 14, 2000
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Well, there sort of is. If we look at the CMB (not just the ones in all the pretty pictures, but the actual raw data) its full of polarizations. Meaning, we are seeing Doppler shifts of the CMB photons as we travel relative to them. We can then decompose all of the different polarizations to get our velocities in all the different directions. When all of these polarizations are removed, you can then look at the small variations and infer things about the universe, etc.

So, in short, while we don't have a real stationary point to reference, Einstein was wrong, if we looked out the window of a space ship in reality there is a way we can determine how fast we are moving by analyzing the polarization of the CMB.
yes it was silly of me to say that there is no such concept, as there clearly is. and i actually don't disagree with anything you said...but with all the inferences we've been able to make using CMBR data, we're only "sort of" sure what our absolute velocity (relative to the universe) is. sure, we're more or less 100% confident in what our velocity relative the to CMBR is, but we can see, calculate its various Doppler shifts in various directions, and essentially make a direct calculation of our velocity. i don't doubt that its our closest estimate of such an absolute velocity.

in specific regard to the video, i just don't like the lack of an explanation for how he came up with our speed through the universe. after all, he did a pretty good job of explaining the derivations of all the other speeds in layman's terms.


Yes, you have a point.

The whole thing is for fun, and is not attempting to claim a scientifically accurate speed measurement.

Several times he says things indicating it's all a hypothetical thought exercise, and not a scientific measurement of the various speeds. I hope you can enjoy it on that basis.
i enjoyed it :)...and i think his estimate, despite just being a fun thought experiment, is still fairly accurate up to a certain point.
 

WildHorse

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Jun 29, 2003
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<cut>
i really don't care to comment on his ideas regarding the speed of the galaxy itself through the universe. while i suppose its possible to calculate the speed of the galaxy as it plows through the interstellar medium, there is certainly no way to calculate its speed relative to a body that is absolutely stationary with respect to the universe - there is no such thing, and there is no such concept.

IF (just pretend) there was a truly stationary observation point "outside" everything, then we could also add the speed of the big bang expansion. He includes the galaxy moving through space, but not the speed of expansion which is occurring to both the galaxy and to space itself.
 

sao123

Lifer
May 27, 2002
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I disagree with his entire premise...

Provided one does not attempt to think in terms of (X,Y,Z) you must remember that using the (rho, theta, phi) system, these type of orbital calculations are no more difficult that the ones we use today to get our spacecraft to planets in different orbits now. We will not be doing straight line travel, but still will be using the optimal orbital transfer method via gravitational boost.
 

sao123

Lifer
May 27, 2002
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Yeah, maybe you're right, but still, the point of the presentation in the OP is that we can think about our speed moving, even though it appears we are sitting stationary.

You are invited to re-focs your observation so as to more clearly relate your point to the topic?


You post as if it should be an eye opener...I realized in like 6th grade that we are moving in all 6 degrees of motion.

We are sitting on a rotating sphere, which is in a binary orbit with another sphere, all orbiting a central sphere of the sun. Our solar system is orbiting the galactic center and osciliates above and below the galactic plane by 100M light years. Our galaxy is part of a the local group, which is a binary system with the andromeda local group all joining a supercluster which orbit the ursa major/virgo local cluster. that supercluster likely orbits some larger group.

But, its easiest deducted from a picture.
http://www.sabbatella.com/National Geographic - The Universe Map.jpg


However, it seems as though I was spot on in my comments... in agreement with William Gaatjes & Sunny129 that his technical analysis is "off"...
 
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