Solved! Speculation: Zen 4 (EPYC 4 "Genoa", Ryzen 7000, etc.)

[Joe NYC]

It is very reasonable to assume, that they might make it happen (twice the cores on the same area. I also suspect them to use another IO - either full on SoIC or InFO-RDL.

Pure speculation:
I measured the block on the MI300 render that I suspect to be the 16c Zen4c CCD and it nicely fits the area bill (see the Zen5 thread around two weeks back, as ATM I am just too lazy).

My latest theory on the CPU cores of Mi300 is that the graphical representation is probably incorrect and it is 3 Zen4 chiplets of 8 cores each.

It would require the least amount of changes from the existing Zen 4 chiplet.

 

[trivik12]

Are there any Zen 4 laptops available for sale now anywhere. I dont see anything at amazon or bestbuy online. Forget instore as I dont think I have ever seen even rembrandt laptops in store at Best buy or Costco. I have seen few Zen 2/Zen 3 laptops.

 

[moinmoin]

Are there any Zen 4 laptops available for sale now anywhere.

In Germany there are only two stores listing some Asus models with Phoenix or Dragon Range, one says availability within 21 days, the other within March, so I guess it starts late March/early April here.

 

[trivik12]

For some weird reason, AMD is less focused on laptops when it comes to ramp ups. They take eons and availability is also spotty. its lot easier to buy Intel laptops or Macbooks here in US.

 

[moinmoin]

For some weird reason, AMD is less focused on laptops when it comes to ramp ups. They take eons and availability is also spotty. its lot easier to buy Intel laptops or Macbooks here in US.

I don't think it's weird, laptops are a tight supply chain where everything needs to come together (with AIO and even more so desktop it's much easier to second source and mix 'n' match) and it's obvious Intel both offers the quantity and the leeway to ensure more timely releases by partners. AMD isn't bad considering where it was just a couple years ago, but the focus on few specific partners (ASUS, Lenovo, HP) shows it's not exactly easy to scale that effort wide and up. So most other manufacturers come significantly later, and as Rembrandt showed economic circumstances can lead to that step barely happening.

 

[nicalandia]

Anyone here remember AMD Athlon FX 4x4?


I believe AMD had that in mind when making AMD Threadripper Pro 3000 series just in case Intel pulled a Rabbit out of the Hat in the HEDT Segment.




The TR 5000 series is also capable and likely the Zen4 based TR models as well

 

[DrMrLordX]

I don't think it's weird, laptops are a tight supply chain where everything needs to come together (with AIO and even more so desktop it's much easier to second source and mix 'n' match) and it's obvious Intel both offers the quantity and the leeway to ensure more timely releases by partners. AMD isn't bad considering where it was just a couple years ago, but the focus on few specific partners (ASUS, Lenovo, HP) shows it's not exactly easy to scale that effort wide and up. So most other manufacturers come significantly later, and as Rembrandt showed economic circumstances can lead to that step barely happening.

I have suspected that AMD prioritizes bulk corporate buys first, to the detriment of general retail markets.

 

[moinmoin]

I have suspected that AMD prioritizes bulk corporate buys first, to the detriment of general retail markets.

I'd claim that's effectively the case anyway. Whether it's by AMD's doing or the manufacturers' doing it just makes perfect business sense to sell in bulk wherever possible.

 

[leoneazzurro]

https://static.techspot.com/articles-info/2636/bench/2023-02-23-image-5-p.webp

This Cyberpunk?

 

[DrMrLordX]

I'd claim that's effectively the case anyway. Whether it's by AMD's doing or the manufacturers' doing it just makes perfect business sense to sell in bulk wherever possible.

True. I still wonder, is there an actual product shortage though, or is that the market AMD prioritizes, thereby limiting how many Dragon Range or Phoenix units they'll ship? If all AMD cares about is the buik buys, all they need to do is gauge demand from the OEMs that ship the finished units, and then feed them accordingly. AMD shouldn't have any trouble getting enough wafers to serve the broader retail market, but under the current circumstances, maybe they're not interested in pushing too much hardware out into general retail space.

 

[moinmoin]

True. I still wonder, is there an actual product shortage though, or is that the market AMD prioritizes, thereby limiting how many Dragon Range or Phoenix units they'll ship? If all AMD cares about is the buik buys, all they need to do is gauge demand from the OEMs that ship the finished units, and then feed them accordingly. AMD shouldn't have any trouble getting enough wafers to serve the broader retail market, but under the current circumstances, maybe they're not interested in pushing too much hardware out into general retail space.

In my eyes as long as there is more demand than supply there is a shortage. If the output is only sufficient to fulfil the bulk corporate demand then there's shortage of output for the general retail space. That may be on purpose, but I honestly can't imagine continued Rembrandt's scarceness as being on purpose. In any case it would be really interesting to hear what exactly is the limiting factor.

 

[Det0x]

For those interested in where the Zen4 X3D gaming performance really comes from, ive made a post about it here
tldr

• 7950X3D
• 6600MT/s tight timings
• 2166mhz FCLK

Read bandwidth = 91.62 GB/s


Default pages = 69.59ns latency


Vanilla Zen4 bandwidth--- VS --------- X3D Zen4 bandwidth
VS

Vanilla Zen4 latency-------- VS -----------------X3D Zen4 latency
VS

All this extra gaming performance in Zen4 7950x3d comes from this little difference

 

[biostud]

For those interested where the Zen4 X3D gaming performance really comes from, ive made a post about it here
tldr

• 7950X3D
• 6600MT/s tight timings
• 2166mhz FCLK

Read bandwidth = 91.62 GB/s
View attachment 78252

Default pages = 69.59ns latency
View attachment 78253

Vanilla Zen4 bandwidth--- VS --------- X3D Zen4 bandwidth
View attachment 78248 VS View attachment 78249

Vanilla Zen4 latency-------- VS -----------------X3D Zen4 latency
View attachment 78250 VS View attachment 78251

All this extra gaming performance in Zen4 7950x3d comes from this little difference

What are the numbers for a 13900k?

 

[Joe NYC]

Not sure if people caught this article about a Ryzen server from Asrock.
AMD Ryzen Server the ASRock Rack 1U4LW-B650/2L2T Review (servethehome.com)

So, I ordered the mobo only for a replacement of a small server in our office. I am going to pair it with a 7700x combo with a free 32GB of DDR5 6000 from Micro Center and an M.2 drive I have sitting around (for now). Should be under $1000.

I may eventually replace the M.2 drive with PCIe 5, when the good ones come out.

 

[gdansk]

The board itself is $490 on Newegg. And the memory QVL includes 1 16GB stick of ECC UDIMM. I'll wait

 

[Joe NYC]

The board itself is $490 on Newegg. And the memory QVL includes 1 16GB stick of ECC UDIMM. I'll wait

I think the price (compared to consumer motherboards) has to do with extra networking features, 2x10 GBase-T Broadcom + 1x2.5 Intel + management.

It has all 24 PCIe Gen 5 lanes exposed:
16x PCIe
4x PCIe
4x M.2

The board also takes non-ECC DIMMs, FYI, if you don't want to limit yourself to ECC.

 

[nicalandia]

To be honest that Xeon W9 is pretty impressive when compared to old 64 core Milan-X and 80 core Icelake, but Genoa is just a Monster due to Genoa AVX-512, 12 Channel and efficiency

Look at the GFLOPS and GFLOPS per Watt

 

[nicalandia]

Following up on the HPCG impressive performance shown by Genoa



Going with 12 Channel memory makes Genoa impressive CPU for Supercomputing

 

[Exist50]

Following up on the HPCG impressive performance shown by Genoa

View attachment 78388

Going with 12 Channel memory makes Genoa impressive CPU for Supercomputing

There's something off about those results. Why would populating the last 2 channels have such an outsized impact?

 

[nicalandia]

There's something off about those results. Why would populating the last 2 channels have such an outsized impact?

Who knows, but HPCG is very bandwith sensitive. And by the way, those are the result with HPCG Compiled with generic compiler, compiled with specific Zen4 flags the performance is about 40% Higher.

Having said that HPCG, HPL, NAMD, ML and many Scientific oriented tasks are best procesed by GPUs

Look at this.

Even with Optimized build HPCG 2S Genoa is slower than a single 3080 Ti GPU, a pair of Xeon 8490H fair far worse of course

 

[Exist50]

Who knows, but HPCG is very bandwith sensitive.

Sure, but those results clearly aren't just scaling with the change in bandwidth. There must be something else happening for the 12 channel config. Maybe related to the IO die partitioning?

 

[lightmanek]

Sure, but those results clearly aren't just scaling with the change in bandwidth. There must be something else happening for the 12 channel config. Maybe related to the IO die partitioning?

Yes, I bet it is due to some chiplets having to cross NUMA nodes. Having each die direct access to it's own memory controller must be making the difference. It would be interesting to see this same benchmark on lesser Genoa model with 6 channels and half the chiplets.

 

[moinmoin]

It would be interesting to see this same benchmark on lesser Genoa model with 6 channels and half the chiplets.

Or Siena.

 

[nicalandia]

Yes, I bet it is due to some chiplets having to cross NUMA nodes. Having each die direct access to it's own memory controller must be making the difference. It would be interesting to see this same benchmark on lesser Genoa model with 6 channels and half the chiplets.

This is the result of the 7950X with generic build and with optimized Zen4 build.



The 7950X having only 2 Channels gets a rather low score