Discussion Speculation: Zen 4 (EPYC 4 "Genoa", Ryzen 7000, etc.)

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Vattila

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Except for the details about the improvements in the microarchitecture, we now know pretty well what to expect with Zen 3.

The leaked presentation by AMD Senior Manager Martin Hilgeman shows that EPYC 3 "Milan" will, as promised and expected, reuse the current platform (SP3), and the system architecture and packaging looks to be the same, with the same 9-die chiplet design and the same maximum core and thread-count (no SMT-4, contrary to rumour). The biggest change revealed so far is the enlargement of the compute complex from 4 cores to 8 cores, all sharing a larger L3 cache ("32+ MB", likely to double to 64 MB, I think).

Hilgeman's slides did also show that EPYC 4 "Genoa" is in the definition phase (or was at the time of the presentation in September, at least), and will come with a new platform (SP5), with new memory support (likely DDR5).

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What else do you think we will see with Zen 4? PCI-Express 5 support? Increased core-count? 4-way SMT? New packaging (interposer, 2.5D, 3D)? Integrated memory on package (HBM)?

Vote in the poll and share your thoughts! :)
 
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moinmoin

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I did not see this posted here. But Linux actually runs faster with Mitigations On(For ALL CPU Vulnerabilities found so far) for Zen4.

Code with mitigations being faster than without may seem counter intuitive at first, but mitigations also structure the code for which the CPUs can be optimized again.

So my first thought was that if the CPU detects no mitigations are applied it instead applies mitigations in microcode which are slower due to being applied at run time instead at compile time.

Another theory which I now favor was put forward in the comments at Phoronix:

"Like it or not, these mitigations are VERY strong signals to the CPU as to what the software will do next. And CPU designers looking for optimizations LOVE such signals.

It's not that hard to imagine that AMD have tuned their design and made optimizations _expecting_ the usage patterns that they themselves recommend. If the CPU is tuned to *expect* a memory barrier at specific points and you don't issue one, then you do so at your detriment.

If I were to hypothesize, one possibility is that issuing a memory barrier tells the CPU that it can forget about past state, and that frees up microarchitectural registers to prefetch the next bit of processing. A simple optimization *built on the assumption that mitigations=on.* It could also, ironically, be a very helpful signal to prediction and prefetch when done correctly."
 

LightningZ71

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biostud

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Yeah, intel definitely has price advantage so AMD will have to consider lowering prices for 7700X/7600X or offering some great bundles with b650 boards.
The advantage of AMD is if the boards supports three generations of CPU's so a zen6 is a drop in upgrade. But at this point I guess it hasn't been confirmed.
 
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aigomorla

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Anyone know if the 7000 series thread ripper pro's follow the same boost profiles as the Ryzens?
Meaning the better cooling you have on them, the higher the boost clock will go?

I know i have been playing the tiny violin in regards to HEDT lately, but i really want to upgrade this generation, and the only segment i can upgrade to is a HEDT.

So if the 7000 series TR Pro's have similar boost profiles like the Ryzen's i really do not think i will care much if we can't overclock them, as i custom watercool everything, and can probably pull a boost clock of 5.5ghz+ across all cores on my custom watercooling setup.

I would just need a next gen TR waterblock with sufficient block size coverage for the large die.
 

aigomorla

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Curious_Inquirer

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Since when?
To my knowledge they locked all the 5000 series ThreadRipper PRO's.
The 3000 series Thread Ripper Non-Pro had unlocked.

There are new motherboards that can do PBO from the stock 280W to 400W.

Here is Dr. Ian Cutress showing it off
 

aigomorla

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moinmoin

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aigomorla

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bah... and i found out sourcing a 5000 series TRPro and TRX40-Pro motherboard is very expensive.... I didn't think they would be that expensive.
 

cellarnoise

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AMD currently and has for the past few years the highest performance workstation / high connectivity space and they are capitalizing on that. Won't change until there is more competition.

Their support network is also making bank as they are supporting the dominant money making HPC network.

Though the platforms are now end of the road, if you need the connectivity and not so much absolute performance, the older threadripper generations are not too bad from a price to performance ratio. If you need max cpu compute then you have to really pay or go top of the line home desktop.
 

moinmoin

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Nice graph from buildzoid. "The cooler used for this testing was a 360mm custom loop with liquid metal between the IHS and waterblock(not direct die)."

Great stuff, though it's unfortunate he didn't monitor the actual power consumption in addition. Having the exact deviations from the limits (if any) would be incredibly helpful.
 
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eek2121

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bah... and i found out sourcing a 5000 series TRPro and TRX40-Pro motherboard is very expensive.... I didn't think they would be that expensive.

Yep. Now you see AMD's current conundrum with HEDT. The platform is too expensive. You can blame EPYC for that. They don't want Threadripper to replace EPYC sales.

EDIT: If I were AMD I would have segmented as follows:

Entry Level: Ryzen - 4-16 cores, dual channel RAM. high end consumer, low end workstation. $699top end.
Threadripper: 16-32 cores. quad channel. Mid-Level. Blend between high end consumer and entry level workstation. Cost $999-$1,999.
EPYC Workstation 32-64 Cores. Octa-Channel. Top-Level workstation. Current 5995wx pricing top end.
EPYC: Current offering.
 
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Asterox

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Very little performance loss for 65W/Eco mode, and gaming is more or less identical.


Too bad, Wright Spire no longer has a role as AMD stock CPU cooler.But ok, for 65W every good smaller CPU cooler will be quite enough.One example, quite popular cheap LC Power CPU cooler in various EU countries.


 
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Kocicak

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Yep. Now you see AMD's current conundrum with HEDT. The platform is too expensive. You can blame EPYC for that. They don't want Threadripper to replace EPYC sales.
What do you mean - expensive?
Threadripper Pro 5995WX with 128 PCIE lanes and 64 cores costs 6500 USD.
Ryzen 5950X with 24 PCIE lanes and 16 cores costs 800 USD.

If you are a proffessional who can productively use that computing power and connectivity of the Threadripper, it is CHEAP. This is a proffessional workstation stuff, not HEDT.

AMD has now the lowest end covered with AM4.
Mid level and HEDT with AM5.

12 and 16 cores CPUs for AM5 are HEDT.
 
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